[MBTI General] Why are INTJs stereotyped as super logical and good at debates

[EcK]

If you were any more on topic, you would be like the the Topicman, the superhero who's power is to stay on topic.

Must have been the uranium in my morning cereals.
Puts a whole new spin on 'you're glowing today'.

 

[IZthe411]

Because it takes them three months to get tired of a topic and for some insane masochistic reason they actually enjoy the research part of it. They can stay on point until everyone else has blown their brains out with topic-fatigue, thus winning by elimination.



I can research for about 10 seconds before the (Ne)ed to experiment overwhelms me and I have to break free and physically introduce some good old fashioned home cooked CHAOS and ENTROPY to the point of topic and see what happens.

Otherwise I lose interest and move on to something else I can keep checked with some kind of empirical data. INTJs don't seem to care much about empirical data, which always baffled me. For a demographic interested in things 'that work in the real world' they sure don't seem to give much of a shit about the mechanics of how things in the real world 'actually work.'

Empirical data is background noise. Even when the data says x, I'm still asking y.... I'm not going to stop until I'm convinced otherwise that what I see in the data or what I see as potential solution to the problem is possible, data or none.

 

[Cellmold]

No, just a man....LMAO...sorry, couldn't help it

 

[anticlimatic]

Empirical data is background noise. Even when the data says x, I'm still asking y.... I'm not going to stop until I'm convinced otherwise that what I see in the data or what I see as potential solution to the problem is possible, data or none.

I have noticed.

 

[Coriolis]

As ni doms, they seem to be the strongest in weeding out irrelevant data and getting a flash of the highest probability. So at the very beginning, they seem to have a birds eye view of the best route and strategy. They then utilize their creative function, Te, within this ni "knowing" to support each of their claims with concrete, externally agreed upon, application.

When I enter a debate, especially one "just for fun" that isn't tied to any real outcomes, I can see the whole discussion space almost like a map. I can see what roadblocks can be put in place depending on which way the discussion goes. I can steer it one way or another, or just let the other person choose the path, then implement whatever argument corresponds to that. When arguing about real plans and actions, though, I won't do this, preferring the shortest path to the end goal.

INTJs handle the things quite logically, but the reason why a premise exists for an INTJ is entirely without logic whatsoever. Its deeply personal for them, often nearly impossible for them to handle with formal logic or to validate externally.

In short, the INTJ are logical about selected parts of things they care about. About the other parts, their arguments seems to be a big fat "don't look that way, that's not the part of the argument I want you to see."

Essentially correct. We don't generally resort to formal logic, and our focus on the end goal does lead us to ignore (i.e. not waste time on) questions that are beside the point. (Just had such a discussion with my INTP tonight.)

Seeking depth and breadth of knowledge is one way of putting it- I call it an unhealthy obsessive disorder that can be a gateway to addiction in general.

It also depends on the context of the debates I think. Whether or not they're for problem solving, recreation, or expressing emotion. I think all T types use debate to express emotion more than they realize.

That research is unhealthy only if it interferes with getting things done rather than supporting it. You are right about context - that is critical. I will debate a practical matter much differently than some hypothetical situation or moral question just for discussion's sake. Who "wins" the first will play out in the real world. Who "wins" the second - well, usually no one really does. I consider it a win if both parties have a good time and learn something new.

If the problem is telling people what they want to hear then Ni would be a pretty good tool, but if the problem is trying to figure out how to physically put a square peg in a round hole it's just not a tool that works. I've seen INTJs attempt home repair or installation projects, and it's just pure agonizing facepalm. Mostly, as with anyone, it's largely due to that asshole inferior function sabotaging everything- making them put the inconsequential details before their priority, and bogging down the process with distracting unpleasantries.

You have made similar assertions before, which always seem at odds with the INTJs I know IRL, including myself. I have no problem with home repairs or installations, whether I figure out what to do from instructions provided, looking it up online, making up my own method, or some combination thereof.

The stereotype that INTJs are good at debate is a terrible lie and should be abolished.

By all means. Everyone should think we are terrible debaters. We don't know what we are talking about, can't hold our own in a discussion, are real pushovers when it comes to arguing. Piece of cake.

I can work with being underestimated

 

[great_bay]

Let's just look at the function what INTJ and ENTJ have. Ni and Te. Ni foresees implications of events. Te is about systematizing. Ni and Te is what INTJ and ENTJ are known for. Ni plans out what's going to happened. Te just systematizing. In a debate, INTJ and ENTJ must tell you why the implications of event. ENTJ and INTJ will follow up by systematizing using Te.

INTJ and ENTJ will tell you the foresee implications towards the topic. They'll also organized the plan with Te. I have no idea how these traits are associated with being debaters. The descriptions what I told you are associated with being planners.

 

[Ursa]

Don't get me wrong INTJs are generally logical and good at debate, but why do they specifically get this stereotype attributed to them?

I rarely see this stereotype outside very inexperienced MBTI enthusiasts and, unsurprisingly, INTJ forums and INTJ sub-fora. Coincidence?

 

[entropie]

I rarely see this stereotype outside very inexperienced MBTI enthusiasts and, unsurprisingly, INTJ forums and INTJ sub-fora. Coincidence?

Could be that you havent noticed their styles in real life yet. While INTJs can appear very "huge" in forums, in real-life they are actually quite reserved. Sometimes you may even overlook them. I had a business meeting today with an INTJ colleague, who I like very much cause he is definitly a system builder and the system we work in are people, so we are perdue. I held a very shining and encouraging speech in front of the CEO and I was quite sure I get him this way. He paid respect to my enthusiasm and emotions about this but he is still an ENTJ and needed some graspable facts. Then the INTJ jumped in and presented him a potpurri of facts like he was wikipedia himself. That convinced the CEO finally.
That colleague actually is a very intelligent and educated person, who by no means ever tries to be in the center of attention. He just rocks people by being systemic, knowing stuff and seeing chances.

I often think that INTJs can be perceived totally different in an online forum.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Let's just look at the function what INTJ and ENTJ have. Ni and Te. Ni foresees implications of events. Te is about systematizing. Ni and Te is what INTJ and ENTJ are known for. Ni plans out what's going to happened. Te just systematizing. In a debate, INTJ and ENTJ must tell you why the implications of event. ENTJ and INTJ will follow up by systematizing using Te.

INTJ and ENTJ will tell you the foresee implications towards the topic. They'll also organized the plan with Te. I have no idea how these traits are associated with being debaters. The descriptions what I told you are associated with being planners.

It is quite simple.

If you are organizer and main planner in the group you will know what is going on most or all the time. Therefore when you enter the debate you will right away have developed picture of what is going on and that is foundation of being good in a debate. (knowing your stuff) After that Te simply has to organize the fact into the argument and intuition has to make holes in the arguments of the opposition ... and that is pretty much it.

 

[Ursa]

Could be that you havent noticed their styles in real life yet. While INTJs can appear very "huge" in forums, in real-life they are actually quite reserved. Sometimes you may even overlook them. I had a business meeting today with an INTJ colleague, who I like very much cause he is definitly a system builder and the system we work in are people, so we are perdue. I held a very shining and encouraging speech in front of the CEO and I was quite sure I get him this way. He paid respect to my enthusiasm and emotions about this but he is still an ENTJ and needed some graspable facts. Then the INTJ jumped in and presented him a potpurri of facts like he was wikipedia himself. That convinced the CEO finally.
That colleague actually is a very intelligent and educated person, who by no means ever tries to be in the center of attention. He just rocks people by being systemic, knowing stuff and seeing chances.

I often think that INTJs can be perceived totally different in an online forum.

I was in a relationship with one, and I count many in my social and work circles. I just think the stereotype of "super" logical is undeserved. Most of the ones I have encountered and gotten to know, either as a friend or a professional contact, underestimate the influence of their introverted Feeling on their own logical procedure. And the fact that they're so reserved and need to process for a while makes it hard to keep up with debates in real time. I've not experienced one in high upper management though.

 

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

I was in a relationship with one, and I count many in my social and work circles. I just think the stereotype of "super" logical is undeserved. Most of the ones I have encountered and gotten to know, either as a friend or a professional contact, underestimate the influence of their introverted Feeling on their own logical procedure. And the fact that they're so reserved and need to process for a while makes it hard to keep up with debates in real time. I've not experienced one in high upper management though.

They can apply logic in math and science, but they aren't like some unfeeling machine. They are classified as a non-rational type since Ni is more based on concepts than actual things (don't know if I said that correctly, but oh well). My dad is an INTJ. I was talking about the benefits of Libertarianism to him and he responds back by asking if I'd ever read Grapes of Wrath and how bad those corporations treat people. There's a fear-based component wrapped up in this. This is how he understands and sees things. I think it might be one of the reasons INTJ's are seen as great debaters, because they can use logic when it suits them, but they can be unreasonably stubborn due to the way their ideas and feelings are wrapped up and condensed in themselves.

 

[Andy]

I never heard this applied to INTJs. I have mostly heard it about INTPs and ENTPs; the latter being that Ne makes them very "quick".

I'm good at logic. Fuck debates.

 

[foxonstilts]

Because there is a stereotype for every type. NT + J = super logical and good at debates. NT + P = quirky mad scientists lulz

 

[Felix5]

Where does any stereotype come from??

People make assumptions and they apply them to everyone in a group.

Personally, I've seen some pretty immature and obnoxious INTJs try to do battle with others when it was obvious that they were going to lose. In my experience, mature INTJs will simply admit that they don't know enough about the subject to continue a discussion. Sometimes people aren't always satisfied with that answer or "I don't know." I've seen people try to continue arguments with INTJs when they've obviously dropped out of the discussion.

We live in a society that really enjoys bickering right now, no more so than on the internet.

I've never considered INTJs to be logical per se. INTJs are good at taking facts, stats, and data, putting them together, and making unique insights off of those things. We don't always use this to argue either, sometimes we'll just sit in a room and do it. That spaced out, dreamy look, you'll see on our faces is usually indicative of that. Sometimes debate and discussion help us formulate and contextualize our insights. It's like an exercise or a game.

I would consider INTPs to be more "logical" about things, but they don't tend to make the same insights that INTJs do. Their method of logic is slightly different than ours.

 

[Felix5]

I was in a relationship with one, and I count many in my social and work circles. I just think the stereotype of "super" logical is undeserved. Most of the ones I have encountered and gotten to know, either as a friend or a professional contact, underestimate the influence of their introverted Feeling on their own logical procedure. And the fact that they're so reserved and need to process for a while makes it hard to keep up with debates in real time. I've not experienced one in high upper management though.

I don't believe there's any such thing as an unemotional opinion, our opinions are all based on something. We typically tend to use facts to back them up at the end of the day. I think, at the most, INTJs tend to do it less than most other types. We tend to outgrow the need for emotional validation as we mature. INTJs are also not idealists, which can be surprising to some people. We tend not to be wing nuts. That doesn't mean we aren't intense about an issue that is important to us. Some people might mistake this for emotion as well.

 

[Coriolis]

I don't believe there's any such thing as an unemotional opinion, our opinions are all based on something. We typically tend to use facts to back them up at the end of the day. I think, at the most, INTJs tend to do it less than most other types. We tend to outgrow the need for emotional validation as we mature. INTJs are also not idealists, which can be surprising to some people. We tend not to be wing nuts. That doesn't mean we aren't intense about an issue that is important to us. Some people might mistake this for emotion as well.

I don't think there is such a thing as an opinion that does not involve values, which is not the same thing as emotions.