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[NF] ENFx--"cult leader"?

Kheledon

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There is this argument that Hitler was an ENFP.

Really? I hadn't heard that one before. :shrug:

So I could buy it. I don't know why ENFJs always get the blame.

Well, we are pretty dangerous. :D

In all honesty, though, Fe is ridiculously powerful. It can be overwhelming and very painful to those who get close to the ENFJ. We have been described as "exacting in enforcing that their associates observe ethical standards of behavior and prone to rashly provide remarks and advice when they see people conflict with these ethical standards."

:blush:
 

á´…eparted

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Well, we are pretty dangerous. :D

In all honesty, though, Fe is ridiculously powerful. It can be overwhelming and very painful to those who get close to the ENFJ. We have been described as "exacting in enforcing that their associates observe ethical standards of behavior and prone to rashly provide remarks and advice when they see people conflict with these ethical standards."

:blush:

I think that's putting us on much too high of a pedastal, personally, with the way you worded it. It can be powerful, depending on the individual in question. In others though it can be ineffective and easily ignored.

But yes, what you quoted is not wrong. That's for scocionics which is a different theory, but it applies to ENFJ's.
 

ceecee

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In all honesty, though, Fe is ridiculously powerful. It can be overwhelming and very painful to those who get close to the ENFJ. We have been described as "exacting in enforcing that their associates observe ethical standards of behavior and prone to rashly provide remarks and advice when they see people conflict with these ethical standards."

:blush:

I don't think this about my ENFJ. At all. He isn't overwhelming and he doesn't have me or anyone else in some kind of hypnotic mind tractor beam. Of course they're awesome but they're not floating above us, waiting to swoop down to Fe Hulk smash all the unethical behavior in the world.
 

Kheledon

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I don't think this about my ENFJ. At all. He isn't overwhelming and he doesn't have me or anyone else in some kind of hypnotic mind tractor beam. Of course they're awesome but they're not floating above us, waiting to swoop down to Fe Hulk smash all the unethical behavior in the world.

Then he's probably a healthier ENFJ than I.

Speaking only for myself, I know that I can and do push people's emotional buttons ... either positively or negatively, and, until recently, quite unconsciously. I always demand attention, at the very least. Those who seldom encounter me usually perceive me the way that I want to be perceived. Those who are close to me feel both the glow that comes from my praise and the pain that comes from my scorn, and the latter can be quite harsh.
 

ceecee

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Then he's probably a healthier ENFJ than I.

Speaking only for myself, I know that I can and do push people's emotional buttons ... either positively or negatively, and, until recently, quite unconsciously. I always demand attention, at the very least. Those who seldom encounter me usually perceive me the way that I want to be perceived. Those who are close to me feel both the glow that comes from my praise and the pain that comes from my scorn, and the latter can be quite harsh.

I'm curious what you do with people that don't fall for all that bullshit. Because I'm guessing when you get stood up to, by people who should be grateful that you're gracing their presence, you don't take it well.
 

Kheledon

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I think that's putting us on much too high of a pedastal, personally, with the way you worded it. It can be powerful, depending on the individual in question. In others though it can be ineffective and easily ignored.

Pedestal? Calling us potential cult leaders? :huh:

I was attempting to suggest that ENFJs can be either healthy or unhealthy, good or bad, but always potentially powerful depending on the degree to which an individual has developed his or her extroverted feeling function. Personally, I am loved by some and loathed by some, but I am seldom ignored or treated with ambivalence.

That said, I see where you are coming from. A poorly developed ENFJ might be ignored by some people, I suppose, but ENFJs are quite rare and tend to "stand out" as a result. That has been my experience, in any event.
 

Kheledon

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I'm curious what you do with people that don't fall for all that bullshit. Because I'm guessing when you get stood up to, by people who should be grateful that you're gracing their presence, you don't take it well.

Absolutely true. I have lost some court cases in my years as an attorney. I couldn't win them with all the charm and grace in the world, and I took it very badly every time.

Gulenko says the EIE-Fe is very sensitive to failures and disappointments, and I have found that to be the case for myself.

I thank you for engaging me. :D
 

á´…eparted

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Pedestal? Calling us potential cult leaders? :huh:

I was attempting to suggest that ENFJs can be either healthy or unhealthy, good or bad, but always potentially powerful depending on the degree to which an individual has developed his or her extroverted feeling function. Personally, I am loved by some and loathed by some, but I am seldom ignored or treated with ambivalence.

That said, I see where you are coming from. A poorly developed ENFJ might be ignored by some people, I suppose, but ENFJs are quite rare and tend to "stand out" as a result. That has been my experience, in any event.

Not exactly. You're highlighting/bolding of words and overall description makes ENFJ's sound like all powerful gods, which we certainly aren't. Yes, we have strenghts and can "read" social flow like no ones business. But saying things like "demand attention" comes across as high and mighty. It's also that every type has the potential to be powerful, just in different ways. FWIW when someone says "powerful" in terms of functions, Te or Se is what comes to mind, not Fe. But I do agree on the lack of ambivalence bit; people love me or hate me and I am not easily forgotten. Same with several of my ENFJ friends.

I mean, I get your intention, but it doesn't really come across right. I also don't find ENFJ's to be all that rare. I know quite a few, and am close friends with several.
 

Kheledon

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Not exactly. You're highlighting/bolding of words and overall description makes ENFJ's sound like all powerful gods, which we certainly aren't. Yes, we have strenghts and can "read" social flow like no ones business. But saying things like "demand attention" comes across as high and mighty. It's also that every type has the potential to be powerful, just in different ways. FWIW when someone says "powerful" in terms of functions, Te or Se is what comes to mind, not Fe. But I do agree on the lack of ambivalence bit; people love me or hate me and I am not easily forgotten. Same with several of my ENFJ friends.

I mean, I get your intention, but it doesn't really come across right. I also don't find ENFJ's to be all that rare. I know quite a few, and am close friends with several.

I'm happy now. I have not been ignored.

I describe myself (as many describe the ENFJ) as aristocratic. To some that means "high and mighty." To others that means noble, elegant, and refined. It's a matter of perspective, I suppose.

:shrug:
 

Hawthorne

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Wasn't the last season of Orange is the New Black about something like this? No? Ok.

I'd imagine the ExFJ to excel at charismatically bringing people over to their cause. ExFPs put me in mind of guerilla activists. Pushing people to get moving with their contagious idealism but actually forming a stable, cohesive "unit" of follwers? ExFJ wins.
 

á´…eparted

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I'm happy now. I have not been ignored.

I describe myself (as many describe the ENFJ) as aristocratic. To some that means "high and mighty." To others that means noble, elegant, and refined. It's a matter of perspective, I suppose.

:shrug:

The description and word fits me yes, but it's not a way I would use to describe myself. More often than not it's not going to be taken correctly, and I loathe the idea of people thinking I am haughty and snooty, if just for the fact that I loathe that sort of quality in others.

I'm very very careful with my word choices and presentation towards others. I think the way our 3-fixes operates might be different. Because I am a 1, I am perfectionistic, and my 3 fix makes me quite image conscious. In a strange sort of irony, my core 1 has deemed being image conscious a bad thing that is not be displayed on presentation. Part of it is experience has told me that in myself and others that sort of quality doesn't get taken well to more often than not. Thus, I actively hide and guard me being image conscious, desiring status, and looking good/noble. I hell I hate even talking about it.
 

chubber

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Really? I hadn't heard that one before. :shrug:

Well, we are pretty dangerous. :D

Leadership

NFs seldom make their way into positions of leadership (none of the Presidents have been NFs) but when they do they bring their own unique style to the table. Now, we could just leave it at that and go over some aspects of the ENFP leadership together. But wouldn't it be more interesting to analyze the leadership abilities of Adolf Hitler, the ENFP who tried to conquer the world?

In spite of being pure evil, the man did have great leadership ability, and he has been studied at length by countless scholars, providing much material for us to analyze. However, Hitler's value as a research subject is limited by the fact he was a very screwed up ENFP. This was mainly thanks to his father, a violent, verbally abusive individual.

It should be noted that contrary to internet opinion, Hitler was not an INFJ. At the very end of the war, he was extremely stressed out and began to take on some unhealthy INFJ traits. But these were not normal for him--his true, unstressed personality was ENFP.
So. Bearing in mind that we are talking about a very unhealthy, utterly evil individual who was unable to form even one intimate relationship with another human being--including his mistress--we can now proceed to examine some of the strengths of Hitler's leadership style. It is particularly interesting to note that so many ENFP talents can exist outside the expect NF framework of caring and concern for others.

  • Charisma, charm, warmth, personal magnetism
  • An ability to read others (an audience, a person) and adapt his communication style to their needs and group culture
  • Bringing out others' talents and skills
  • Inspiring hope for the future even when all seems dark
As leaders, ENFPs are engaging and bring a personal sparkle and vivacious charm that draws in their listeners. Hitler is usually portrayed in videos as a ranting demagogue. But in fact, he could just as easily be a calm, even hesitant speaker who projected an air of concern and optimism for the future. He simply used the approach that he instinctively knew would work best with each unique group of people.
On this same note, ENFP leaders are skilled as sizing up their followers and choosing the approach that will reach them best, speaking to their culture and needs. An ENFP corporate trainer, for example, may take quite a different approach with a group of human resources workers than they would with a group of engineers. Many other types adopt a "one size fits all" interaction style, but not the people-saavy ENFP. They know their audience and how to best engage them.
Another thing that ENFPs leaders are adept at is bringing out the best in their subordinates by engaging their latent talents, gifts, and enthusiasm. To some extent, all NFs do this; the ENFJ Teachers are particularly known for it. However, the ENFPs have this ability in a strong measure as well. An ENFP leader encourages their followers to give their best, and so inspiring are they that others naturally want to respond. Individuals who lack confidence to perform a task can be charged up by an ENFP's warmth and encouragement. One prominent member of Hitler's circle referred to him as "my catalyst."

One of the things that distinguished Hitler from his compatriots was his optimistic, even delusional faith in a good future. In the 1930s, when the economic and political situation in Germany was grim, Hitler stirred hope in the nation and began to revitalize things. Similarly, when the war was totally, utterly, completely lost, he nevertheless had an almost magical ability to draw his staff into a shared dream of future victory. (Then he decided to wipe out the entire German nation in a scorched earth policy. But I digress.)
When there is no sane, rational reason for hope, an ENFP leader will say, "I see a light--let's go!" Undaunted by setbacks and unwavering in their faith in the cause, an ENFP can inspire courage and hope in their followers when all the odds are stacked against them. ENFPs may achieve their goal, if only because no one else would dare to believe it could be done. Then again, they may end up committing suicide in a bunker and becoming the most hated person in the western world.
There, wasn't that more interesting than a dry, boring summary of ENFP leadership strengths? Told ya.

Not so cute and fluffy when they are unhealthy. And I've been trying to break this cloak and dagger style of the ENFP, nobody seems to pay attention to it. Oh you're an ENFP, oh you must be a push over... not the case at all.
 
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Then he's probably a healthier ENFJ than I.

Speaking only for myself, I know that I can and do push people's emotional buttons ... either positively or negatively, and, until recently, quite unconsciously. I always demand attention, at the very least. Those who seldom encounter me usually perceive me the way that I want to be perceived. Those who are close to me feel both the glow that comes from my praise and the pain that comes from my scorn, and the latter can be quite harsh.

Yes I do confirm ENFJ can be very frightening !

ENFJ and ESFJ can be very manipulative with feelings.

I used to do this when my mother approched me as a child : :rock::freaked::boohoo:

Then when I grew up : :mad::Fe::frown::tongue10::thumbdown:

Today as she has improved : :matador::yesss:

I think a healthy individual does not enter anyone's game. So I play mine and see how the bull is behaving :newwink:

The result of my dominant Fe mother is that I did not trust my own feelings until I decided to go and see a therapist and understood the big part of my own childhood disasters.

Today I can accept them a bit more easily.
 

Qlip

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Not so cute and fluffy when they are unhealthy. And I've been trying to break this cloak and dagger style of the ENFP, nobody seems to pay attention to it. Oh you're an ENFP, oh you must be a push over... not the case at all.

Hah, I don't really know enough about Hitler to know his MBTI, but the article does have some good points about ENFPs, and I agree with your observation on ENFP's hidden ways. I think sometimes it's even hidden from them.

I work for an ENFJ and I've known a couple. They're charming, but I can't say that they're universally effective, and when it gets ugly it gets real ugly. But, then again, Fi has a different vantage point than Fe.
 

ceecee

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I'm happy now. I have not been ignored.

I describe myself (as many describe the ENFJ) as aristocratic. To some that means "high and mighty." To others that means noble, elegant, and refined. It's a matter of perspective, I suppose.

:shrug:

First off - don't shrug. This isn't some unhelpable thing like a birthmark in the shape of Mexico on your right cheek. The idea of someone describing themselves as aristocratic in regards to their presence is just unpalatable, regardless of people thinking high and mighty or regal.

One thing I do notice about ENFJ's is that they often temper their charisma with humility. That's why people are drawn to them and people feel comfortable talking to them. But if your goal here is to not go unnoticed, the way you're talking about yourself is a great way to do it. It just won't be very positive notice.
 

EcK

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Not so cute and fluffy when they are unhealthy. And I've been trying to break this cloak and dagger style of the ENFP, nobody seems to pay attention to it. Oh you're an ENFP, oh you must be a push over... not the case at all.

Difficult breakup?
 

Kheledon

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Wasn't the last season of Orange is the New Black about something like this? No? Ok.

I'd imagine the ExFJ to excel at charismatically bringing people over to their cause. ExFPs put me in mind of guerilla activists. Pushing people to get moving with their contagious idealism but actually forming a stable, cohesive "unit" of follwers? ExFJ wins.

Well said. Thanks. :happy0065:
 

Lia_kat

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I agree with the ENFJ's persuasiveness and charisma. It's magnetic. Definitely "cult-leader" potential. Haha.
 

great_bay

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I always thought ENFJs were likely to be thought of cult leaders than ENFPs. Js are sterotyped more likely to do. Ps are stereotyped to be lazy and laidback. Being a cult leader require for people to take action.

The only real reason why ENFJ would make cult leaders is because of their Ni. Ni foresees implications. This function is seen as tactician function. This is good for managing people. Fe considers groups feelings to see if they're well-liked by other people.

ENFP I have no idea if they can make good cult or terrorist leaders. Ne picks up interconnections to other contexts? Fi is how I feel? Te is good at managing people I guess. ENFJs are other NJ users are always a superior choice.
 

Tilt

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I would not be a skilled cult leader but I have easily gotten the RIGHT people to see/understand my perspective in order to get what I want/need out of a situation.

I don't even try to consciously manipulate but things usually works out for me at least 90% of the time.
 
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