Sins and misconduct of organized religion

[Lark]

The last sounds like Nazi

I read until here and decided I dont care for ANYTHING you say again.

 

[Coriolis]

I read until here and decided I dont care for ANYTHING you say again.

You would prefer that horrible lie about Jews be attributed to the RCC than to Nazis and other bigots? Fine. Stop reading, and keep your mind closed.

 

[Tennessee Jed]

Yeah, I can't really disagree about that aspect either. I think the church (religious orgs, esp with power structures involved) is just one of the institutions that more overtly pretends to be more than it is and/or denies its own vices regularly, it's kind of baked into its world perspective. I think most of the other organizations are a bit more realistic or even cynical ("hey, it's just the cost of doing business"), while the church naturally claims to be an angel of light. That is why it scans are more bothersome; it pretends to be more, so its shortcomings seem more heinous. Sausage making is a messy business, though.

I get your point of course. But I see it from a different angle. I've always just looked on those guys as snake oil peddlers. Buyer beware. I mean, it's easy to spot the small late-night televangelists as being skeezy, obvious, uneducated rip-offs. You KNOW for a certainty that your religious contributions to those particular guys are just going to be spent on blow and hookers. But by extension, the whole religious racket becomes suspect. Why would any middle-class person simply give money away to a bejeweled old pope running a fabulously rich empire? And carrying historical baggage like the Inquisition and pushing ridiculous myths and all that?

In other words, I don't see the church as an "angel of light" in the first place. That's just the fake marquee out front. I see it as a shaky con game, a snake-oil peddler one step ahead of being run out of town on a rail. I figure if people are dumb enough to voluntarily get involved with these religious shysters, then they get what they deserve. Dumb people bring troubles on themselves much of the time, by falling for obvious crap like religion. As I said above, I honestly just find it all humorous. No reason to get angry about it. Just sit back and watch "the human comedy" play itself out. And I could say a lot of the same things about politics and politicians. (Yes, I'm a bit of a cynic.)

 

[Lark]

You would prefer that horrible lie about Jews be attributed to the RCC than to Nazis and other bigots? Fine. Stop reading, and keep your mind closed.

Yeah, you really are too much.

 

[ceecee]

I get your point of course. But I see it from a different angle. I've always just looked on those guys as snake oil peddlers. Buyer beware. I mean, it's easy to spot the small late-night televangelists as being skeezy, obvious, uneducated rip-offs. You KNOW for a certainty that your religious contributions to those particular guys are just going to be spent on blow and hookers. But by extension, the whole religious racket becomes suspect. Why would any middle-class person simply give money away to a bejeweled old pope running a fabulously rich empire? And carrying historical baggage like the Inquisition and pushing ridiculous myths and all that?

In other words, I don't see the church as an "angel of light" in the first place. That's just the fake marquee out front. I see it as a shaky con game, a snake-oil peddler one step ahead of being run out of town on a rail. I figure if people are dumb enough to voluntarily get involved with these religious shysters, then they get what they deserve. Dumb people bring troubles on themselves much of the time, by falling for obvious crap like religion. As I said above, I honestly just find it all humorous. No reason to get angry about it. Just sit back and watch "the human comedy" play itself out. And I could say a lot of the same things about politics and politicians. (Yes, I'm a bit of a cynic.)

I guess it's hard to find the "human comedy" in a case like this.

Canada mourns as remains of 215 children found at indigenous school - BBC News

Sure, I don't feel bad about people who get ripped off by religious shysters. I suppose I can sit back and shake my head on anyone forking over money to a scumbag, same as I can point and laugh at people who voted for a blatantly obvious con man. But I'm really saying once you get beyond the abstract "humanity with all it's failings" do you just allow the young and vulnerable to continue to be exploited and killed as some kind of sacrifice to the "sins and misconduct of organized religion" or no? Because that's what the actual question is.

 

[Tennessee Jed]

I guess it's hard to find the "human comedy" in a case like this.

Canada mourns as remains of 215 children found at indigenous school - BBC News

Sure, I don't feel bad about people who get ripped off by religious shysters. I suppose I can sit back and shake my head on anyone forking over money to a scumbag, same as I can point and laugh at people who voted for a blatantly obvious con man. But I'm really saying once you get beyond the abstract "humanity with all it's failings" do you just allow the young and vulnerable to continue to be exploited and killed as some kind of sacrifice to the "sins and misconduct of organized religion" or no? Because that's what the actual question is.

I'm an ex-Marine and a Vietnam vet. I've been around the world, and I'll be the first to tell you that the world can be a nasty place. If you want to hunt through the news in order to bury yourself in gore and atrocities and bathe in the blood of innocents, go for it. That's your choice.

I know the gore is out there. If you go looking for it, it's unending. But there isn't a damned thing I can do about it as an old retiree sitting around, marking time, and waiting for my prostate medication to kick in . So I'm going to focus on the ridiculous side of humanity. That's MY choice. It is what it is.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

In a certain sense I could play the game of questioning whether you would know the "sins and misconduct" of religion, if you did not have religion in the first place to supply you with an understanding of what "sins and misconduct" where but that could be a bit too meta.

This seems to be reliant on the unproven and circular argument that morality stems from a god.


To be fair, the thread title was referring to those of organized religion

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

 

[Virtual ghost]

In this part of the world the list is almost endless and it goes back for thousands of years. But even in recent times there were obvious problems that go far beyond "pedo stuff". Glorifying the people who round up thousands and then killed them (good chunk were minors). Taking the money from corrupt governments and playing their part in brainwashing people. Support for dictatorships. Support for ultra nationalists. Causing unrest. Genocide denial. Arguing for the start of various holy wars. Open anti science stuff. Ignoring property rights. Open hate speech towards "the others". Calling women "goods" .... etc. As I said there is a number of quite dysfunctional regions and countries around me in wider sense and this is the part of that equation.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Pat Robertson used money donated to aid impoverished Africans to fund a blood diamond mining operation.

Anglicized Christians have a long history of fucking over people of African descent. The “Curse of Ham” allowed racism to be codified in the biblical DNA

 

[highlander]

But he was fighting for them and their view, that's why they voted for him. Generally they are single issue voters: total abortion abolition. To accomplish that, they needed insane authoritarian judges, including SCOTUS. Mission accomplished. But it is NOT just Trump. It is the GOP from the most local offices all the way to federal leadership. Trump could not have done any of this without their bootlicking support and cooperation. The GOP is a Christian fascist party with a business wing.

I know that's why but I have never bought into the single issue voter concept as having validity. He didn't abolish abortions nor is it likely to happen in my lifetime.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

A Nun Stole $835,000 From A School To Feed A Gambling Habit, Prosecutors Say : NPR

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

The problem though is that if people give up organized religion, they're still going to do terrible shit. Consider prominent atheists who supported the war in Iraq because it was part of the fight against "Islamofascism". If being free from the constraints of belief in the supernatural isn't sufficient to cause one to oppose imperialist wars justified under flimsy evidence, what good is it, really? People used to act as though it was the panacea that would solve all ills and it was extremely important to spread the word, but I'm extremely skeptical about all of that. I mean I've encountered quite a few atheist Trump supporters on this forum.

At this point I don't think it's really about trying to apply rationality and empiricism to matter of public policy, but is rather the other side of the culture war. I'm very skeptical of its usefulness as a key foundation of any progressive politics, especially given that it can be used to justify imperial foreign policy and xenophobia. I wish more people interested in being vocal about this stuff would consider other philosophical questions rather than whether or not God exists (it's too bad because there is a large chunk of philosophy about what it actually means if God doesn't exist).

I agree that evangelicals can go fuck themselves, though.

 

[ceecee]

The problem though is that if people give up organized religion, they're still going to do terrible shit. Consider prominent atheists who supported the war in Iraq because it was part of the fight against "Islamofascism". If being free from the constraints of belief in the supernatural isn't sufficient to cause one to oppose imperialist wars justified under flimsy evidence, what good is it, really? People used to act as though it was the panacea that would solve all ills and it was extremely important to spread the word, but I'm extremely skeptical about all of that. I mean I've encountered quite a few atheist Trump supporters on this forum.


I agree that evangelicals can go fuck themselves, though.

Well, people are giving up organized religion in droves in the US. However, the Christian Democrat or lib tends to be much different than the non-religious Republican or Trump supporter, imo. The non-religious Republicans still tow that party "morality" and are driven by Protestant Christian dogma - anti-choice, pro-death penalty and putative punishment, academic boogieman paranoia, HUGE gender issues, billionaire and business worship, unquestioned law enforcement and military fetishization and so on. They're always quick to say they don't agree with religion but, the policies they are most vocal on mirror it exactly.

Jimmy Carter would be an excellent example of what use to be the larger Evangelical Democrat group. There are lots of Christian liberals though and it's always been an important coalition in the Democratic Party but I don't see it dictating Dem policy at all.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Well, people are giving up organized religion in droves in the US.

I've read that. Many speculate it's a consequence of organized religions allying themselves with corrupt morally bankrupt politics. That sounds believable, and they would definitely deserve that.

 

[ceecee]

I've read that. Many speculate it's a consequence of organized religions allying themselves with corrupt morally bankrupt politics. That sounds believable, and they would definitely deserve that.

In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace | Pew Research Center

But I don't think it's all political. Some is. Many conservatives and conservatives minded people, even non religious ones seem to crave firm boundaries and some kind of "daddy" figure". Trump is an excellent, non-religious example for many of them. But I think for a lot of nones, it's just leaving religion period. It doesn't make them just discard their beliefs. I'm also sure the more the GOP lines up to mesh with Christian Nationalism, the more it's going to drive people away. Plus I think more and more people are just not raised with religion at all. I didn't raise my kids with any religion, most people I know did the same.

 

[Virtual ghost]

The problem though is that if people give up organized religion, they're still going to do terrible shit. Consider prominent atheists who supported the war in Iraq because it was part of the fight against "Islamofascism". If being free from the constraints of belief in the supernatural isn't sufficient to cause one to oppose imperialist wars justified under flimsy evidence, what good is it, really? People used to act as though it was the panacea that would solve all ills and it was extremely important to spread the word, but I'm extremely skeptical about all of that. I mean I've encountered quite a few atheist Trump supporters on this forum.

At this point I don't think it's really about trying to apply rationality and empiricism to matter of public policy, but is rather the other side of the culture war. I'm very skeptical of its usefulness as a key foundation of any progressive politics, especially given that it can be used to justify imperial foreign policy and xenophobia. I wish more people interested in being vocal about this stuff would consider other philosophical questions rather than whether or not God exists (it's too bad because there is a large chunk of philosophy about what it actually means if God doesn't exist).

I agree that evangelicals can go fuck themselves, though.

Perhaps but there is still question of odds. Actually if I remember correctly that war was more pushed into life by more conservative or at least centrist parts of the country/system.
Plus the biggest problem with Iraq is that the magic didn't work, due to completely missed strategy. If the actual strategy in practice was to create another Japan or Germany we would probably be talking about all of this in a different fashion.



On the other hand genuine removal of fundamentalism is much deeper and complex topic than just removing people from organized religion. Since this has to be done in thinking, instead of just removing "the iconography". What is much harder to do. To me just about everyone in US still has this "loyalist vibe" regardless in which social group they are. What is because many changes were pretty shallow and "us vs. them" is still all over the place. If anything the political system itself is simply breading this.

 

[ceecee]

Perhaps but there is still question of odds. Actually if I remember correctly that war was more pushed into life by more conservative or at least centrist parts of the country/system.

Yes, exactly. Neocon warmongers no matter the political lean.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Well, people are giving up organized religion in droves in the US. However, the Christian Democrat or lib tends to be much different than the non-religious Republican or Trump supporter, imo. The non-religious Republicans still tow that party "morality" and are driven by Protestant Christian dogma - anti-choice, pro-death penalty and putative punishment, academic boogieman paranoia, HUGE gender issues, billionaire and business worship, unquestioned law enforcement and military fetishization and so on. They're always quick to say they don't agree with religion but, the policies they are most vocal on mirror it exactly.

Jimmy Carter would be an excellent example of what use to be the larger Evangelical Democrat group. There are lots of Christian liberals though and it's always been an important coalition in the Democratic Party but I don't see it dictating Dem policy at all.

Yes, what you are describing are essentially cultural christians, or what I would classify as non-religious christians. Non-practicing Gentiles. If that even makes sense.