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  1. #61
    Softserve Ice Cream Agent Washington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AncientSpirits View Post
    I really couldn't say. To the extent I know them, I like some of each.

    In my youth, I loved music from the 20s, the 1720s.
    Later, I got hugely into alternative music. I remember listening to Radiohead's "Paranoid Android" in London (not live, just on a CD, which was how memorable it was!) I was even a roadie for a college band in the 90s! With our nation's strange boy band crazy, my attention turned to EDM. Rap caught my attention in the mid-2000s. Now, I listen to pretty much any kind of music, from country and Christian to rap and reggae to lounge and classic rock, so long as it meets certain criteria:

    A. It's nostalgic, or
    B. It has many layers, activates my imagination, and can surprise me emotionally

    Having a good beat helps, though I wouldn't describe Sigor Ros as danceable, and those guys meet all the criteria for "B".
    I find sad music uplighting, happy music annoying, and angry music understandable but not necessarily fun. So no sugar pop tunes or death metal, though I do understand why other people can like those.

    I might sound like I'm now pretty open, but really I'm incredibly critical. It's possible to listen to music in a very deep way, not technically, but just to sink your whole self into it, to go into the song's situation and get lost in it... and if I can't do that with the music, or it's boring or I'm not in the mood for it that day, then it's not for me.
    !!! This is really cool taste in music, too. I relate, though recently I'm starting to prefer lighter listening from alternative 90s rather than alternative/rock/industrial 00s. (I'm...old enough to think in decades I guess)

    What do you think about Tool??? I mean, it's got layers and stuff, but it's... kinda hard sometimes.

    Sigur Ros is nice, and so is Radiohead. My favourite Radiohead album is still Hail to the Thief. A lot of these music things are interesting for historical reasons, but I doubt I could write a paper about it. xD
    There's no love in fear.
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    Do we want to remind you of something? Yes: the world is good and we belong here.
    - Richard Siken

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentwashington View Post
    @AncientSpirits
    What do you think about the "shadow functions" and "archetypes? How do they fit into your work in cognitive neuroscience?
    Great question, thank you!

    First, the self is more than the brain. Just in physical terms, the nervous systems runs throughout the whole body. Hormones and neurotransmitters are produced by many organs. Besides the neocortex and limbic system and such, in the head, there's the gut, the immune system, and endocrine glands (gonads, etc). The automatic nervous system (ANS) links the brain with all these other glands. From what I've read, 80% of the information flow in the nervous system is from the body up into the brain, while only 20% goes the other way. The output of these glands, and the action of the ANS, is strong, rapid, and shapes us in the short and long term, including gene expression. Recently, a direct nerve link between the pre-frontal cortex and the immune system (around the thymus) was discovered. Ninety percent (90%!!) of serotonin is made in the digestive tract. Testosterone can strongly reshape the brain. Adrenaline and such impact what we remember. So right from the start, we need to acknowledge that we are more than mentalizations. We are electro-chemical systems.

    In the brain, there are favored circuits, favored response patterns and ways of processing information. In the same way, we have favored patterns involving the entire nervous system, including the many facets that tend to be outside the spotlight of our awareness. I would say that the ego--our main sense of self--is a highly energetic construct that is our strongest set of circuit patterns, or at least it's the pattern that's "I", "me", and "mine". We have many other patterns, or constructs, or what Jung called complexes. He named the ego as our primary complex. He said there are other complexes in our personal and collective unconscious, which we called archetypes. To use less esoteric terms, these complexes are physiological, socio-cultural, and personal, in some proportion or another. For example, masculinity, as a set of behavioral patterns and mentalizations, is partially physiological, based in hormones and anatomy, partly socio-cultural, shaped by community and media representations and roles, and partly personal, shaped by unique life experiences. Typically, for a male, numerous aspects of the masculine complex overlap with the ego complex, defined as part of "I". though in practice, the guy will likely not be attending to many of these aspects, in the same way that readers are not usually not attending to the shapes of the letters of words until their attention is drawn down to do that. Other complexes are more or less in our awareness as well. So every male has some vague idea of femininity, but that complex is mostly socio-culturally defined -- less physiological and more socio-cultural, but also psychological, with biases, projections, etc. Jung named that the anima. Beyond these complexes, the mechanisms that we use to learn--through modeling and projection for example, are also important.

    The challenge to neuroscience is that it tends to study discrete units, mainly in the brain. But these complexes--nervous system response patterns--are whole-system phenomena that are distributed throughout the whole nervous system. So studying them is challenging. To some extend neuroscience has come to understand mirror neurons are a way we mimic and learn others' behavior. Feedback from parents, society, etc also play a role. The complexes are not really even discrete, and can be more or less differentiated... a young boy is not even differentiated physiologically, his socio-cultural notions are a mix of immediate male guardian role-models plus media-normative representations. Basically, this is an interdisciplinary question, so academia will likely never touch it, and those academics prone to solipsism will claim archetypes and such don't exist.

    If I really took the time, I could spell out a nexus between type, Jung's model of the psyche, the brain and nervous system and human developmental biology as a whole, and socio-cultural impact. Sounds like a big book!

    In fact, I touch on a number on some of this in my new book, "Jung on Yoga", particularly in the latter sections.
    Likes highlander, SearchingforPeace, Eric B liked this post

  3. #63
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    Major elements of Jung's framework of the psyche, including ego, archetypes, and other complexes, from "Jung on Yoga: Insights and Activities for Awakening with the Chakras" by Nardi, 2017.

    Last edited by AncientSpirits; 12-12-2017 at 01:26 PM.
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  4. #64
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    A brain-based approach to the Jungian cognitive processes

    From my research, Thinking and Feeling correlate with the left pre-frontal cortex (Fp1), while Sensing and iNtuiting correlate with the right pre-frontal cortex (Fp2).

    Focused Judge (Fp1)
    Helps us...
    Stay focused. Decide: select among options. Be results oriented and sharp. Filter out distractions and criticism. Evaluate situations according to a principle. Notice and correct errors. Clarify needs, goals, and ideas. Get organized. Show confidence. With overuse, may be rigid and closed to input.

    Curious Explorer (Fp2)
    Helps us...
    Stay open to new data and experiences. Seek stimulating ideas and activities. Engage in a creative process. Mix and match. Navigate a situation and know when all ideas are in. Reflect on new data, delving into criticism for self-awareness. Show natural, honest expressions. With overuse, may get off-task.

    Then there is extraverting/introverting, which show in a number of ways in the brain, including:

    Extraverting:
    -- quickly react to stimuli – incoming data takes a short path in the brain to give a fast response.
    -- speak and act, then reflect later, with more activity and dense networks in the front of the brain.
    -- feel under-stimulated and want to “turn up” the volume; drained by a lack of input.

    Introverting:
    -- slowly react to stimuli – incoming data takes a long path in the brain to craft a response.
    -- watch and reflect, then speak and act later, with more activity and dense connections in the back of the brain.
    -- feel over-stimulated and want to “turn down” the volume; drained by too much input.

    Finally, we can differentiate how we appropriate particular brain regions and subregions, with a focus on people vs objects, or concrete vs abstract. For example, in the left rear temporal and parietal areas, do we focus on decoding facial expressions or vehicle makes and models. Similarly, in the left temple area, do we focus on physically mirroring others for skill learning or rapport building or making analogies or imagining what-if...

    Taken together, there are 8 cognitive patterns. The patterns show in terms of amount of activity as well as networks across multiple brain regions and holistic patterns like what evokes "flow" across the entire brain.

    Next, I'll post definitions of the Jungian cognitive processes.

  5. #65
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    Left Prefrontal Cortex (Fp1)

    Expedite Decision-making
    Proactively meet goals. Often look sure and confident. Organize and fix to get positive results soon.

    Timely Building (Te)
    Measure and construct for progress.
    Make decisions objectively based on measures and the evidence before you. Focus on word content, figures, clock units, and visual data. Find that “facts speak for themselves”. Tend to check whether things are functioning properly. Can usually provide convincing, decisive explanations. Value time, and highly efficient at managing resources. Tend to utilize mental resources only when extra thinking is truly demanded. Otherwise, use what’s at hand for a “good enough” result that works. Easily compartmentalize problems. Like to apply procedures to control events and achieve goals. May display high confidence even when wrong.

    Friendly Hosting (Fe)
    Nurture trust in giving relationships.
    Evaluate and communicate values to build trust and enhance relationships. Like to promote social / interpersonal cohesion. Attend keenly to how others judge you. Quickly adjust your behavior for social harmony. Often rely on a favorite way to reason, with an emphasis on words. Prefer to stay positive, supportive, and optimistic. Empathically respond to others’ needs and feelings, and may take on others’ needs as your own. Need respect and trust. Easily embarrassed. Like using adjectives to convey values. Enjoy hosting. May hold back the true degree of your emotional response about morals/ethics, regarding talk as more effective. May try too hard to please.

    Refine Decision-making
    Clarify what’s universal, true or worthwhile. Often look quietly receptive. Trust own judgments.

    Skillful Sleuthing (Ti)
    Gain leverage using a framework.
    Study a situation from different angles and fit it to a theory, framework, or principle. This often involves reasoning multiple ways to objectively and accurately analyze problems. Rely on complex/subtle logical reasoning. Adept at deductive thinking, defining and categorizing, weighing odds and risks, and/or naming and navigating. Notice points to apply leverage and subtle influence. Value consistency of thought. Can shut out the senses and “go deep” to think, and separate body from mind to become objective when arguing or analyzing. Tend to backtrack to clarify thoughts and withhold deciding in favor of thorough examination. May quickly stop listening.

    Quiet Crusading (Fi)
    Stay true to who you really are.
    Listen with your whole self to locate and support what’s important. Often evaluate importance along a spectrum from love/like to dislike/hate. Patient and good at listening for identity, values, and what resonates, though may tune out when “done” listening. Value loyalty and belief in oneself and others. Attentive and curious for what is not said. Focus on word choice, voice tone, and facial expressions to detect intent. Check with your conscience before acting. Choose behavior congruent with what’s important, your personal identity, and beliefs. Hard to embarrass. Can respond strongly to specific, high-value words or false data. May not utilize feedback.

  6. #66
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    Right Prefrontal Cortex (Fp2)

    Energize the Process
    Seek out stimuli. Often look random, emergent, and enthusiastic. Attend to the here and now.

    Active Adapting (Se)
    Immerse in the present context.
    Act quickly and smoothly to handle whatever comes up in the moment. Excited by motion, action, and nature. Adept at physical multitasking with a video game-like mind primed for action. Often in touch with body sensations. Trust your senses and gut instincts. Bored when sitting with a mental/rote task. Good memory for relevant details. Tend to be relaxed, varying things a little and scanning the environment, until an urgent situation or exciting option pops up. Then you quickly get “in the zone” and use your whole mind to handle whatever is happening. Tend to test limits and take risks for big rewards. May be impatient to finish.

    Excited Brainstorming (Ne)
    Explore the emerging patterns.
    Perceive and play with ideas and relationships. Wonder about patterns of interaction across various situations. Keep up a high-energy mode that helps you notice and engage potential possibilities. Think analogically: Stimuli are springboards to generate inferences, analogies, metaphors, jokes, and more new ideas. Easily guess details. Adept at “what if?” scenarios, mirroring others, and even role-playing. Can shift a situation’s dynamics and trust what emerges. Mental activity tends to feel chaotic, with many highs and lows at once, like an ever-changing "Christmas tree" of flashing lights. Often entertain multiple meanings at once. May find it hard to stay on-task.

    Monitor the Process
    Reflect on data and perceptions. Often look focused and preoccupied. Attend to reference points.

    Cautious Protecting (Si)
    Stabilize with a predictable standard.
    Review and practice to specialize and meet group needs. Constant practice “burns in” how-to knowledge and helps build your storehouse. Specialization helps you reliably fill roles and tasks. Improve when following a role-model or example. Easily track where you are in a task. Often review the past and can relive events as if you are there again. Carefully compare a situation to the customary ways you’ve come to rely. In touch with body sensations. Strong memory for kinship and details. Rely on repetition. Check what’s familiar, comforting, and useful. Tend to stabilize a situation and invest for future security. May over-rely on authority for guidance.

    Keen Foreseeing (Ni)
    Transform with a meta-perspective.
    Withdraw from the world and tap your whole mind to receive an insight. Can enter a brief trance to respond to a challenge, foresee the future, or answer a philosophical issue. Avoid specializing and rely instead on timely "ah-ha" moments or a holistic "zen state" to tackle novel tasks, which may look like creative expertise. Manage your own mental processes and stay aware of where you are in an open-ended task. May use an action or symbol to focus. Sensitive to the unknown. Ruminate on ways to improve. Look for synergy. Might try out a realization to transform yourself or how you think. May over-rely on the unconscious.

  7. #67
    Softserve Ice Cream Agent Washington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AncientSpirits View Post
    Great question, thank you!

    First, the self is more than the brain. Just in physical terms, the nervous systems runs throughout the whole body. Hormones and neurotransmitters are produced by many organs. Besides the neocortex and limbic system and such, in the head, there's the gut, the immune system, and endocrine glands (gonads, etc). The automatic nervous system (ANS) links the brain with all these other glands. From what I've read, 80% of the information flow in the nervous system is from the body up into the brain, while only 20% goes the other way. The output of these glands, and the action of the ANS, is strong, rapid, and shapes us in the short and long term, including gene expression. Recently, a direct nerve link between the pre-frontal cortex and the immune system (around the thymus) was discovered. Ninety percent (90%!!) of serotonin is made in the digestive tract. Testosterone can strongly reshape the brain. Adrenaline and such impact what we remember. So right from the start, we need to acknowledge that we are more than mentalizations. We are electro-chemical systems.

    In the brain, there are favored circuits, favored response patterns and ways of processing information. In the same way, we have favored patterns involving the entire nervous system, including the many facets that tend to be outside the spotlight of our awareness. I would say that the ego--our main sense of self--is a highly energetic construct that is our strongest set of circuit patterns, or at least it's the pattern that's "I", "me", and "mine". We have many other patterns, or constructs, or what Jung called complexes. He named the ego as our primary complex. He said there are other complexes in our personal and collective unconscious, which we called archetypes. To use less esoteric terms, these complexes are physiological, socio-cultural, and personal, in some proportion or another. For example, masculinity, as a set of behavioral patterns and mentalizations, is partially physiological, based in hormones and anatomy, partly socio-cultural, shaped by community and media representations and roles, and partly personal, shaped by unique life experiences. Typically, for a male, numerous aspects of the masculine complex overlap with the ego complex, defined as part of "I". though in practice, the guy will likely not be attending to many of these aspects, in the same way that readers are not usually not attending to the shapes of the letters of words until their attention is drawn down to do that. Other complexes are more or less in our awareness as well. So every male has some vague idea of femininity, but that complex is mostly socio-culturally defined -- less physiological and more socio-cultural, but also psychological, with biases, projections, etc. Jung named that the anima. Beyond these complexes, the mechanisms that we use to learn--through modeling and projection for example, are also important.

    The challenge to neuroscience is that it tends to study discrete units, mainly in the brain. But these complexes--nervous system response patterns--are whole-system phenomena that are distributed throughout the whole nervous system. So studying them is challenging. To some extend neuroscience has come to understand mirror neurons are a way we mimic and learn others' behavior. Feedback from parents, society, etc also play a role. The complexes are not really even discrete, and can be more or less differentiated... a young boy is not even differentiated physiologically, his socio-cultural notions are a mix of immediate male guardian role-models plus media-normative representations. Basically, this is an interdisciplinary question, so academia will likely never touch it, and those academics prone to solipsism will claim archetypes and such don't exist.

    If I really took the time, I could spell out a nexus between type, Jung's model of the psyche, the brain and nervous system and human developmental biology as a whole, and socio-cultural impact. Sounds like a big book!

    In fact, I touch on a number on some of this in my new book, "Jung on Yoga", particularly in the latter sections.
    Holy shit, this is what I love about listening to INTJs.

    You NEED to write that book. I've always found disciplines lacking in terms of ... uh, interdiciplinary... uh. Things. Y'know. It's impossible to understand anything comprehensively without delving into interdisciplinary synthesis. It will absolutely be a breakthrough as far as I know. A lot of the theories that we cite in, say, history, tend to be "stolen" from other disciplines as well, because that's how the whole of humanity works. It would be great to see a theorist do something that makes this step in "hard (???) sciences"

    Also, thanks for the rec. I will probably check it out when I'm less poor.

    I use imgbb for inserting images, since I've never seen the forum attachment work.
    There's no love in fear.
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    Do we want to remind you of something? Yes: the world is good and we belong here.
    - Richard Siken

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by AncientSpirits View Post
    Major elements of Jung's framework of the psyche, including ego, archetypes, and other complexes
    Attachment 19269

    BTW, If someone could inform me how to insert images here, ones that people can actually see clearly, that would be awesome!
    If sharing an online image, you can place the image url inside image code brackets, as follows:

    [IMG]image url[/IMG]

  9. #69

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    @AncientSpirits

    Are you familiar are you with Gardner's idea/theory of multiple intelligences, and if so, do you see any potential/possible correlation with the Jungian cognitive processes that might be drawn? Or do you think Garnder's theory is incorrect?

    Gardner's Multiple Intelligences

    Theory of multiple intelligences - Wikipedia



    Another question, do you see any strong correlation between enneagram types and the Jungian processes? Is there a possibility for "odder" or less common/obvious pairings, say, an ESTP 4, or an ISFJ 8?


    Also, Thank you for sharing these definitions of the processes. I think they're a bit more spot on than some of the stuff I've seen.
    Likes highlander liked this post

  10. #70
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    @AncientSpirits

    How would you type according to this when Si, Fi, Ti predominantly fit, and to a small extent Se, Fe and Ne fit, but otherwise no extraverted "function" really clicks? (Aside from looking at other clues like Temperaments etc). Is it necessary that there be function "stacks"?
    There's no love in fear.
    - Tool

    Do we want to remind you of something? Yes: the world is good and we belong here.
    - Richard Siken

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