Fi, Fe and guilt

[Clegane]

Fe vs Fi

People try to be good, most of the time. I think it's especially because they fear being judged. But they fear the judgement of different judges.

Fe-valuers fear the judgement from other people. They fear being exposed. If they do something morally wrong, they feel guilty, but not because they think they did the wrong thing. They may continue thinking that they did the right thing, but they may regret it because other people could judge them for what they did.

Fi-valuers fear their own judgement. They have a rigid morality, and when they do something wrong, they'll feel bad because they feel dirty. They may think they're evil and hate themselves for it. The opinion of other people doesn't really bother them. It does, but not as much as for Fe-valuers.

This has to deal with the fact that Fi sees himself in a romantic and spiritual way. Fe, on the other hand, just would like to fit in and be liked.
I'm not saying that Fi doesn't want to fit in or that Fe got zero morality, but it tends to be like this.

This is my interpretation. Discuss.

 

[Agent Washington]

[MENTION=28497]Clegane[/MENTION]

What do you make of the idea of 'guilt / shame' based cultural anthropology Shame society - Wikipedia
and how it could possibly manifest or affect Fi/Fe users?

 

[RedAmazoneFriendZone]

There is nothing to discuss. You said it all.

 

[Clegane]

@agentwashington

I didn't know about shame and guilt societies, but I've just read the Wikipedia page you linked.

I think that a shame society works best for Fe-users. They especially fear humiliation and shame.
Obviously this type of society works for Fi-users too, but not as much. Fi-users need to BE good in the inside, and like it when other people consider them good too.
Fe-valuers need to be CONSIDERED good by other people, while being morally consistent is a secondary aspect.

For guilt society it's the opposite.

 

[Korvinagor]

Would it be accurate to say that an Fe user would be more likely to rationalise doing something if they know they won't get caught? This appears to be what I'm getting from the post.

 

[Clegane]

Would it be accurate to say that an Fe user would be more likely to rationalise doing something if they know they won't get caught? This appears to be what I'm getting from the post.

Yes, but we also have to consider two more things:
-xxTPs do this more than xxFJs. xxFJs experience feelings in a more positive way and are way more sensitive, so they tend to do this less. But they are also better at emotional manipulation. Also, someone with very low Fi, for example an ESTJ, would probably do this more than an ESFJ.

-Due to the fact that Fi equals subjective values, it means that a Fi-user could have a very wicked set of values, or he could have no values at all, just doing whatever he feels like doing. Take for example Joffrey, from Game of Thrones, an evil ESFP.

 

[fetus]

Hmm, I'm not sure I agree with this.

 

[Verona]

I think that is a bit too simplistic. I personally feel guilty about things I have done even if no one knows I did them, which is Fi according to you, but I also hate the judgement of others as well, which is Fe according to you.

 

[Dreamer]

There is certainly much more grey to this but basically ya, that's what it boils down to. Fi users though will at least feel some guilt from the outside, and Fe users will feel at least some guilt from the internal. Life isn't composed of absolutes after all, especially when it comes to morality, let alone subjective standards of morality.

 

[Norrsken]

Interesting!

 

[Clegane]

Hmm, I'm not sure I agree with this.

Would you mind sharing your thought about this?

I think that is a bit too simplistic. I personally feel guilty about things I have done even if no one knows I did them, which is Fi according to you, but I also hate the judgement of others as well, which is Fe according to you.

Like Enthusiastic_Dreamer said, there are obviously different shades of grey.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I think everyone has some investment in their own moral code and also not being socially shamed. Perhaps a good measure of this is when you are on the fence about an action, or if you are forced to choose between violating your own code vs. violating an external code - which do you choose?

Violating my own code bothers me more, and it might be partly because I'm older, but I'm tired of all the nonsense involving people to the point that I am mostly free of caring what anyone thinks or judges regarding me. Social approval and meaning have dissolved into a state of possible nothingness to me. It mostly looks absurd to me, and while I appreciate everyone trying to be nice, when it comes at the cost of honesty it just seem like extra trouble. I prefer to do away with all the masks and pretense. False kindnesses are worse than honesty that hurts a little. I suppose the only exception to this is when someone feeds the starving (or an equivalent act) when they don't care at all about the person. In that case the person still gets fed, so who cares how it happened. When it comes to verbal and social morality, then I much prefer honesty over politeness and social kindnesses. In the end I have to be able to live with myself, and so will sacrifice social peace in order to be able to do that. This is especially true when the peace is only a pretense to start with and not entirely real at all.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Hm, I have to be the odd one here and say that I completely disagree.

Fe is my secondary function according to MBTI, yet I have a very strong moral code. If I had to theorize as to where that comes from, I guess the logical answer would be my e1. I have always had a very strong sense of right and wrong and have over the years stood up to authority many times, sometimes in a manner which could have had immediate consequences against me. Hmmm... but now as I'm talking about it, I'm thinking about specific examples and seeing that what gets my blood boiling is when others do the wrong thing, and I must call them out on it, particularly if it affects other people. So maybe the part where it affects other people is the Fe bit... standing up for the underdog or fighting for justice for others as opposed to reacting to what is right for you? Because certainly, that time I stood up to my boss and threatened to go over her head could have gotten me fired, but I felt it was the right thing to do for the other people involved. In fact, I was addressing an incident that occurred on a day that I wasn't even there, so in a sense I was fighting a battle for others, but at the same time what happened was absolutely against my own moral code and set me off.

As for shame and guilt, well they might as well be my middle name. I am pretty hard on myself and am constantly wondering both how I look to others and whether or not I may be a bad person because of certain thoughts/reactions/feelings/choices. Again, if we bring enneagram into the picture, e1 and e4 are probably contributing to these feelings for me personally.

I think your theory is just too black and white as I cannot say that my motivations come from outside of me rather than inside; it is definitely a bit of both.

 

[anticlimatic]

Seems legit for tert/inferior Fe users.
Makes sense for Fi users, though I wouldn't know for sure.

Weak Fe values fitting in, I think, because it can't be directly controlled and the constant flow needs to be kept at a positive rate. Like taking a shower- if you have control over the spigot, variety is all good, but if you're helpless to the flow of water you're always going to want it to be warm.

 

[Abendrot]

[MENTION=28497]Clegane[/MENTION]

What do you make of the idea of 'guilt / shame' based cultural anthropology Shame society - Wikipedia
and how it could possibly manifest or affect Fi/Fe users?

I've always thought of Fe as being essentially shame culture oriented and Fi as being essentially guilt culture oriented. Given that the Western world is a guilt culture, (at least it used to be one, these days it is increasingly less of a guilt culture and more of a shame culture given the declining influence of Christianity/Catholicism) I think it would encourage Fe users here to develop a lot of Fi characteristics. Conversely, I think Fi users would be encouraged to develop a lot of Fe characteristics in shame cultures (such as East Asia and Mexico, etc.).

My theory is that this kind of conditioning can invert the direction of the feeling function, especially when it is lower on the functional stack.

 

[Agent Washington]

I've always thought of Fe as being essentially shame culture oriented and Fi as being essentially guilt culture oriented. Given that the Western world is a guilt culture, (at least it used to be one, these days it is increasingly less of a guilt culture and more of a shame culture given the declining influence of Christianity/Catholicism) I think it would encourage Fe users here to develop a lot of Fi characteristics. Conversely, I think Fi users would be encouraged to develop a lot of Fe characteristics in shame cultures (such as East Asia and Mexico, etc.).

My theory is that this kind of conditioning can invert the direction of the feeling function, especially when it is lower on the functional stack.

From what I observe about ideological manifestations, at least, on the internet, the idea of shame is increasingly important in Christendom as well, especially given the rise of social media.

I come from a shame-based culture, but this idea of shame is so deeply inculcated into a fundamental world view from the ground up, that from the outside it probably looks like Fe, especially inferior Fe integrated into a deeply well-thought out logical system (Ti), so differentiating what I was feeling and doing was actually a point of contention. I'm still open to the possibility that what I think and feel is ultimately just that. But, ultimately, attempting to follow societal norms (Fe) results in a deep sense of personal ... what's the opposite of well-being? Especially if Fi doesn't coincide with societal values. Ti-Fe seems a bit more fluid compared to the immutability of Fi based morality.

Speaking of Christendom, bound up with this concept of guilt is the idea of a confessional culture, an institutional means of controlling the process of guilt. There are, of course, people who also follow their internal compass (Fi), and I think Fe in this confessional culture could simply manifest in a certain degree of performing guilt, at least in the moment of expression. The idea of performativity is incredibly fascinating to me cross-culturally because there is always such an element implicit in all societal organisations.

...But honestly, I haven't gone too deeply into that. It's just a preliminary stage of organisation where I'm starting to form an observation about it.

 

[Yama]

I don't make myself feel that bad. Other people make me feel bad. I hate upsetting and disappointing other people way more than I hate doing the same thing to myself. I don't do anything that goes against my values though.

 

[Dreamer]

Would it be accurate to say that an Fe user would be more likely to rationalise doing something if they know they won't get caught? This appears to be what I'm getting from the post.

I would place shame and guilt, in a separate category from fear of getting caught. Fear of getting caught is in simplistic terms, having no remorse for your actions, or, removing yourself from the deed so to speak. If you feel shame or guilt, you see yourself personally tied to that act and whether it's internal or external, that sense of wrong doing will be present. I am sure there is still some sense of wrong-doing gained from getting caught, but the emphasis is placed elsewhere. I'm literally imagining this in front of me as I play with these concepts and trying to explain it...am I making sense?

 

[Galena]

Both kinds of feeling bad about acts are about equal for me. Although, if they conflict, at this point in my life externally-based guilt wins.

 

[Galaxy Gazer]

I wasn't sure about this at first, but I definitely agreed after applying it to my values. Many of the life goals that I have are the exact opposite of what would help me "fit in" and what is most accepted, because I care more about my opinion than the opinions of most others.