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ESTJ

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
Sorry I could not get to the forum.
I shall try to answer your questions.

You see the continuum of the 8 that runs through the square. Stop at the fourth number 8. You have number 1 under it. Follow the continuum of 1 down to the end.

Now you have marked a border. Look at the triangle inside the border.
You see the vertical column left. Do not touch the border.
3+2 = 5
5+4 = 9
7+6 = 13
5+4 = 13-4

You see also the triangle up and down and on the right.

36 = 9X4

= 13+13+5+5

The nine is the key number.

If the ten makes you uncomfy forget it. Big deal.

Did you say that ESTP is the complementary partner of INTP? No way.

The complementary partners stand on a continuum. All the NTs have the numbers (in diverse order of course) seven and four and one and six in the anterior package. This should be reflected in the posterior package of the SP. Save number seven, this is not the case. Their posterior numbers are five six seven and eight.

What should be the other way up?
Sorry about the "other way up" thing. I didn't see the INTP set going down. I could only see the sequence going up for some reason. Nadir has made it all clear.

As for these internal patterns, what do they describe? It is of no use to know that according to this table the top left corner adds up to 26 without the context of knowing what that 26 means. What you are doing so far is comparable to the answer brought by Deep Thought in "The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy". 42 is quite possibly the answer to life and everything but what does 42 mean? Ergo my question is what does 9 mean? What question does 36 answer? It is these questions which still bore at my brain.
 

wildcat

New member
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
3,622
MBTI Type
INTP
mbtistuff-1.jpg


:rofl1: after much work I end up with the same thing as Nadir- only less colorful- interesting because you can see which function of yours ends up as which function for each other type- but I don't understand why, for instance, my functions don't appear in the order of Se Ti Fe Ni Si Te Fi Ne, as opposed to having the unused functions appear in the middle :sad:

I also don't understand why in the order of things it goes
1 Te
2 Si
3 Se
4 Ti
5 Fe
6 Ni
7 Ne
8 Fi

why are the Ss and Ns together, but the Ts and Fs split? :huh:

somewhat getting an idea of what's going on, but not completely sure still :thinking:
Good work!
And good questions.

Why are they together when the others split? That is the EJ/IP order. The IJ/EP is the other way around.

This is why we should basically use the 12345678 order for each type.
To have the hierarchy right.
And my answer follows that pattern.

We have to get the 5+5 out of the first four. In this instance (ESTJ), it is Te+Ti and Si+Se. The five keeps us in check. There is no way or reason to go around it.
When we have established Te we immediately know where to place Ti.

Te is 1.
5-X = 1.
X = 4.

Therefore Ti is 4.

5-X = 3
X = Si

5-X = 2
X = Se


In the latter party we have to get 13+13..


13-9 = 4
9-5 = 4

13+5 = 18
18/2 = 9

In other words: we first substract and then add 4.

The small numbers come first.
1. is the first function .. and so on and so on

It may sad because I know they confuse function 7. with 3. and 8. with 4 in some models.
ESTJ is Te Si Ne Fi yes. It is a four-function model. Nothing wrong with that.

The eight function model is Te Si Se Ti Fe Ni Ne Fi.
 

wildcat

New member
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INTP
Sorry about the "other way up" thing. I didn't see the INTP set going down. I could only see the sequence going up for some reason. Nadir has made it all clear.

As for these internal patterns, what do they describe? It is of no use to know that according to this table the top left corner adds up to 26 without the context of knowing what that 26 means. What you are doing so far is comparable to the answer brought by Deep Thought in "The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy". 42 is quite possibly the answer to life and everything but what does 42 mean? Ergo my question is what does 9 mean? What question does 36 answer? It is these questions which still bore at my brain.
If it may help you to understand the 36 add zero

360

rings any bells?

360
180
090
045

9X4 = 36
9-4 = 5
9+4 = 13
 

wildcat

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Wildcat m'man...

...

I normally dig your posts, but I can't figure this bull out. It would probably help if I knew what you were trying to assert. Sounds like you're just looking to challenge yourself, but I'm not sure.

Also, I'd like to second Whatever's question about why the order is that way.

Upon reexamining the first post I'm even more convinced that you're just playing with numbers. It's not even about the MBTI now is it? Just the numbers?
You mean the fix?

43218765
74163852
61472583
12345678
87654321
38527416
25836147
56781234
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
If it may help you to understand the 36 add zero

360

rings any bells?

360
180
090
045

9X4 = 36
9-4 = 5
9+4 = 13
360 = a complete circle. One rotation.
180 = half a rotation.
90 = the rotation from one axis to another.
45 = half a rotation from one axis to another.

I fail to see the relevance.

9x4 = 36 is the same mathematical sum (effectively) as four quarter turns make a full turn but unless you are indicating that a type has a flanking type either side and an opposite I still fail to see the relevance.

9-4 = 5 I'm assuming that this is mere working out as although I've seen your link between say 4 and 5 the numbers themselves are meaningless to me.

9+4=13 Where's 13 come from? 13 is a prime number, not much use in patterns I'd imagine.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
You're getting there but Nadir seems to have the order worked out correctly for ESTPs.


I believe the whole idea relates back to an old conversation me and Wildcat had on the previous MBTIc incarnation. It's basically a way of representing all eight functions for all sixteen types in one table. It's taken me ages to see it but I think that's what it is.

No I got that. That's sort of obvious...

I meant, why do we need them on a table? And the more pertinent question, why is the function order that way?
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
Code:
       E  I  E  I  I  E  I  E 
       N  S  N  S  N  S  N  S
       T  T  F  F  T  T  F  F
       J  J  P  P  P  P  J  J

ESTJ   Te Si Ne Fi Ti Se Ni Fe   ENFJ
INTJ   Ni Te Fi Se Ne Ti Fe Si   ISFJ
ESFP   Se Fi Te Ni Si Fe Ti Ne   ENTP
INFP   Fi Ne Si Te Fe Ni Se Ti   ISTP
ISTP   Ti Se Ni Fe Te Si Ne Fi   INFP
ENTP   Ne Ti Fe Si Ni Te Fi Se   ESFP
ISFJ   Si Fe Ti Ne Se Fi Te Ni   INTJ
ENFJ   Fe Ni Se Ti Fi Ne Si Te   ESTJ

       E  I  E  I  I  E  I  E
       S  N  S  N  S  N  S  N  
       F  F  T  T  F  F  T  T
       J  J  P  P  P  P  J  J
Here's the same thing using the more common function extrapolation. I mean if you're just trying to make it a grid. also I didn't use numbers.

It's like sudoku Ha!

We could do that actually... gimme a few hours.

Edit: nevermind. It'll be lame.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
Code:
       E  I  E  I  I  E  I  E 
       N  S  N  S  N  S  N  S
       T  T  F  F  T  T  F  F
       J  J  P  P  P  P  J  J

ESTJ   Te Si Ne Fi Ti Se Ni Fe   ENFJ
INTJ   Ni Te Fi Se Ne Ti Fe Si   ISFJ
ESFP   Se Fi Te Ni Si Fe Ti Ne   ENTP
INFP   Fi Ne Si Te Fe Ni Se Ti   ISTP
ISTP   Ti Se Ni Fe Te Si Ne Fi   INFP
ENTP   Ne Ti Fe Si Ni Te Fi Se   ESFP
ISFJ   Si Fe Ti Ne Se Fi Te Ni   INTJ
ENFJ   Fe Ni Se Ti Fi Ne Si Te   ESTJ

       E  I  E  I  I  E  I  E
       S  N  S  N  S  N  S  N  
       F  F  T  T  F  F  T  T
       J  J  P  P  P  P  J  J
Here's the same thing using the more common function extrapolation. I mean if you're just trying to make it a grid. also I didn't use numbers.
If you look at Wildcat's idea, refined by Nadir wonderfully, his table would list INTP to ESFJ because the belief is that the four most common noted functions aren't first, second, third and fourth but first, second, seventh and last.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
If you look at Wildcat's idea, refined by Nadir wonderfully, his table would list INTP to ESFJ because the belief is that the four most common noted functions aren't first, second, third and fourth but first, second, seventh and last.

I happened to notice that. I was hoping Wildcat had some really cool reason, not just having it show up with opposing letters on the other side.

Mine's got a neat little trick too. The one directly across from the starting one has the middle two letters switched, while the outside ends remain the same.

That's why I made mine - I wanted it to be corrected; this would draw out his rationale. Basically I was hoping there was something more -- I figured he might have been waiting to tell WHY he did it that way 'til after everyone understood how the way he was doing it worked.

I understand that the ESTJ used the ST functions with the varying I/E J/P ends then switching to N and F of the same to find all the numbers in that row, but I'm curious as to what led him to do it that way, rather than giving each person one of each perceiving function and one of each judging function, with the 'appropriate' attitudes.

Maybe he did do it just because he wanted INTP to sit directly across the table from ESFJ. Is Wildcat a sadist?
 

Nadir

Enigma
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
544
MBTI Type
INxJ
Enneagram
4
Let's wait and find out!

EDIT:
Nocapszy said:
Maybe he did do it just because he wanted INTP to sit directly across the table from ESFJ.
Xander said:
If you look at Wildcat's idea, refined by Nadir wonderfully, his table would list INTP to ESFJ because the belief is that the four most common noted functions aren't first, second, third and fourth but first, second, seventh and last.

Yep! And it may be that his interpretation is the only way to preserve opposite types in a symmetrical/parallel representation.
The way I understand it, he looked at the common interpretation of "opposite types" and tried to represent the dichotomies by their functions only. The principal difference is that he utilized all eight functions, as opposed to MBTI's four-function preference. The result is the ordering as wildcat, Xander and lastrailway are describing which managed to get it just right.

Okay, some more. So why are the function orders that way? I think it's because of how the types stand in relation to each other.
The primary contrast between the ESFJ and INTP are the Sensing/Intuition and Feeling/Thinking dichotomies. EJ and IP simply define the attitudes. This also helps maintain the "opposition" principle as in wildcat's system, we see that INTP and ESFJ oppose each other not by all of their four dimensions but their main two, NT and SF respectively, so that one is indeed the other's "shadow". This is in contrast to the conventional MBTI system because MBTI implies that each will grow into the other with time -- whereas wildcat's system is more of the opinion that there will most likely remain a degree of fundamental difference between two opposite types, and the middle ground will be dictated by the EJ/IP (dominant judging, secondary perceiving) and EP/IJ (dominant perceiving, secondary judging) dichotomies instead.

I hope this has been rather accurate, though!
 

elfinchilde

a white iris
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
1,465
MBTI Type
type
just stumbled onto this thread; at work now so not much time to comment in detail..

but oh, wildcat, this is beautiful. It reminds me of Bertrand Russell's quote, about "the austere beauty of mathematics". And yes, it is about patterns.

INTP's complementary is ESFJ. no question about that.

beautifully done, wildcat. the imposition of order on seeming chaos. kudos from the elf.
 

elfinchilde

a white iris
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
1,465
MBTI Type
type
at the behest of aelan, this was part of my PM to her on wildcat's post; hope it'll help the :shock: followers of this thread on. (i do not claim to understand him fully though):

---------

it's freaking beautiful what wildcat did. he numerically quantified the 8 functions into a matrix based on 9, and correlated them to their characteristics. so that by the derivation and deduction, you get the shadow appearing.

that's why he said small is beautiful (deduction).

the first mail was to order the 1-8 for the 8 functions. whatever got it right, i worked out the same nos too.

haven't absorbed it fully myself (since i don't quite know what the Te Si etc are about and i've only got 5 min), but it's a means of deriving the shadow and proving that the shadow exists as a schist to the real self, rather than MBTI idea of one growing into the other. ie, opposing selves. numerically derived.

its chaos theory applied. beautiful.
 

wildcat

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Jun 8, 2007
Messages
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INTP
just stumbled onto this thread; at work now so not much time to comment in detail..

but oh, wildcat, this is beautiful. It reminds me of Bertrand Russell's quote, about "the austere beauty of mathematics". And yes, it is about patterns.

INTP's complementary is ESFJ. no question about that.

beautifully done, wildcat. the imposition of order on seeming chaos. kudos from the elf.
There is a chap.
You see the basics. When you see the basics you see everything.

When I entered the INTPc I did not know a thing about the MBTI.
I studied the cognitive processes thread.
And then the MBTI theory.
There is an incongruity between them.

I had engaged in a colour photography for a while.
In the negative you see the complementary colour.

The cognitive processes test gives the correct answers.
Why?

The questions do not reflect the order.
They reflect the function.
 

wildcat

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You mean the fix?

43218765
74163852
61472583
12345678
87654321
38527416
25836147
56781234
Vertical or horizontal.. whatever.


The partner of the immediate vertical column on the left is the one on the right.
There is no cut.
In the 36.
We cut.

1 - 2 - 1+1 - 2 - 1

Eight vertical columns.

18
27
36
45
54
63
72
81


The distance is the interplay of the round with the turn around.

The key number is 9.
The auxiliary key number is FOUR.

Why?

9x4 = 36
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
Added thinking after a conversation with my local "expert".

If everyone uses all eight functions then there's two ways to look at this whole 1-8 versus 1-4 (1-8 being Ti,Ne,*,*,*,*,Si,Fe and 1-4 being Ti,Ne,Si,Fe,*,*,*,*). Working from the concept that the four functions commonly listed are those that define the type firstly we can assume that generally those not listed do not define the type and hence don't warrant inclusion. I think it would also be reasonable to further assume that those four functions are typically close in terms of preference or even that their order may indeed not be set for all subjects of one type (perhaps that's one reason for the variation within a type). The thing is whether or not we should list the functions as 1-4 or 1-8.

Staying within the confines of an INTP example (we are exemplary after all :smile:) would it be fair to say that the temperament of an INTP indicates that basically when rational detached analysis fails they go directly for the throat (kind of like a person using Si+Fe when "on a mission") or would it be more realistic to place the opposite functions directly to the other end of the scale?

As for producing a strict ordering for the functions in and of itself, I'm not sure that it would bear any fruit. Would it not just encourage people to believe that they can type people based on functions?
 

wildcat

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360 = a complete circle. One rotation.
180 = half a rotation.
90 = the rotation from one axis to another.
45 = half a rotation from one axis to another.

I fail to see the relevance.

9x4 = 36 is the same mathematical sum (effectively) as four quarter turns make a full turn but unless you are indicating that a type has a flanking type either side and an opposite I still fail to see the relevance.

9-4 = 5 I'm assuming that this is mere working out as although I've seen your link between say 4 and 5 the numbers themselves are meaningless to me.

9+4=13 Where's 13 come from? 13 is a prime number, not much use in patterns I'd imagine.
Yes.

13+32 = 45

The left hand combines with the left hand only.
The right hand combines with the right hand.

1+3 = 4
2+3 = 5

3+6 = 5+4
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
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INTP
Enneagram
9w8
Yes.

13+32 = 45

The left hand combines with the left hand only.
The right hand combines with the right hand.

1+3 = 4
2+3 = 5

3+6 = 5+4
I can't fault your mathematics but I have no idea what you're trying to achieve with it.

Do you perhaps have a fastidious brother to fill in the blanks? Such as left and right hand of what or where on earth you got 32 from.

Forgive my ignorance but your thinking seems to be to say 36-19 = 17, 5+9+22 = 36. Now that's not a problem in and of itself but you haven't said why that's important or a revelation past teaching someone maths.

Perhaps if you gave a real world example of what revelations your system has given you into the MBTI then it may be possible to work backwards towards how the table and numbers achieve it?
 

wildcat

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I can't fault your mathematics but I have no idea what you're trying to achieve with it.

Do you perhaps have a fastidious brother to fill in the blanks? Such as left and right hand of what or where on earth you got 32 from.

Forgive my ignorance but your thinking seems to be to say 36-19 = 17, 5+9+22 = 36. Now that's not a problem in and of itself but you haven't said why that's important or a revelation past teaching someone maths.

Perhaps if you gave a real world example of what revelations your system has given you into the MBTI then it may be possible to work backwards towards how the table and numbers achieve it?
The relevant numbers: post 54.

32 is the number of the loci.

36-FOUR = 32.

The loci sequences are four in number.
Each sequence is eight in number.

8X4 = 32.
The number of the loci.

36-32 = 4

9-1 = 8

1+1+1+1 = 4
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
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INTP
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9w8
The relevant numbers: post 54.

32 is the number of the loci.

36-FOUR = 32.

The loci sequences are four in number.
Each sequence is eight in number.

8X4 = 32.
The number of the loci.

36-32 = 4

9-1 = 8

1+1+1+1 = 4
This still bears no observable relevance in regard to the MBTI which is what you started with. Have you lost your path or is it one of those paths that has to circumvent a mountain? If it is one of those then if you could tell me of the mountain I'd probably find your path or meet up with you around the other side a whole lot quicker.
 

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
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Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Ok- 1-8 are the orders in which the functions are used by the ESTJ, If the numbers are arranged in a circle, they show which of the ESTJs functions are used by which other types as thier primary functions- something like this-

circlembtithing.jpg


I colored them in color wheel colors since you were talking about a color wheel :)
 
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