F = personal relationships vs T = social interactions

[Pionart]

Both i/e and T/F have been associated with the common terms “subjective” and “objective”, (which of course can be confusing).

One is dealing with an individual or environmental orientation, where only the individual (i.e. “subject”) is conscious of his own “soul”, and thus everything in the environment {including other people} become “objects”.
The other is dividing all of reality directly between impersonal “objects” and personal “souls” {“subjects”; whether individual or environmental}, and making rational assessments based on which of these two categories we are reacting based on.
(i.e. whether your emotions tell you about those objects, or whether thex telh you about their affect on you or others' soul. Hence, in addition to "subjective", you also see "personal" used for both i and F functional perspectives).

Yeah basically, but be careful with using the term "soul" for such a thing, that word has different connotations than the Feeling function.

 

[Pionart]

I can't wait for AI to render all this postulation futile.

We need to postulate in order to design the AI capable of rendering the postulation futile.

But I say that AI is futile.

 

[1487610420]

Ur rong

 

[Eric B]

Yeah basically, but be careful with using the term "soul" for such a thing, that word has different connotations than the Feeling function.

I wasn't making “soul” synonymous with Feeling. I was pointing out that Feeling can be described as the function that deals in “matters of the soul”.

 

[Jaguar]

No, I don't define Ni in terms specifically of "the future" anymore; and yes, Berens is one who really pushes the whole "future" focus. (I thought I had remembered you being somewhat generally critical of her presentation of the concepts).

I was generally critical of lasagna-on-the-brain Lenore Thomson as well as your incessant posting of "Lenore says".

I've since leaned more toward Lenore Thomson's discussion (and an Ni dom. herself).

I'm well aware of that. It's been going on for years. I was hoping you'd enlarge your scope over time, but it looks like my wish never came true.

I take definitions with a grain of salt since they can vary from person to person. To wit:

This is exemplified by the fact that Extraverts tend to have shorter attention spans and frequently shift their focus from one thing to the next. Their social relationships and interactions are also more extensive in nature, characterized by breadth rather than depth. Jung viewed Introversion as more intensive and focused. Instead of constantly shifting or extending their attention, Introverts dive deeper by investing more of their time and energy into a handful of things they really care about.

Were I to reclassify myself every time I read a blurb, I would have to classify myself an introvert after reading that. Then I'd read something else and classify myself an extravert. It could continue on, ad nauseam. But as you know, people are frequently a combination of both extraversion and introversion and that's why black and white thinking and the definitions born from it fall so short. How someone views Ni and Ne is no exception. To exclude the future when discussing Ni would be as strange as excluding wetness when discussing rain.

 

[Norexan]

Feelings - judgment based on values
Extroverted - oriented to world - EQ - Export
Introverted - oriented to you - Ideals - Discover

Thinking - judgment based on reason
Extroverted - oriented to world - Order - Export
Introverted - oriented to you - Logic -Discover

Imagine WE build the skyscraper where everyone must do some part so we reach the end of our project. If WE are not careful, if WE break the rules skyscraper will never build because unlike in video games in real world there is no "trying". Do it or don't. That's the #Te.


So best way how I define Te is
1. RESEARCH
2. DRAW.
3. SIMULATE IT
4. THINK
5. EXECUTE!

This is why Te is Planing.

And Ti is

1. Think
2. Try WORK
3. Catch Problem
4. Think about problem
5. Solve problem
6. Try AGAIN

This is why Ti is Tactical.

 

[Norexan]

Introversion - when you are more oriented to YOU - you are more focus, intense and deep
Extroversion - when you are more oriented to world - you are hard to focus on one thing, chill and shallow

Introverted or Extroverted? There is very simple way to solve it.
When you talk do you start more then one topic inside talking? YES - extroverted
How easily something can draw out your attention? Very - extroverted

 

[Jaguar]

One-sidedness is a problem, not a solution.

 

[Eric B]

I was generally critical of lasagna-on-the-brain Lenore Thomson as well as your incessant posting of "Lenore says".

I'm well aware of that. It's been going on for years. I was hoping you'd enlarge your scope over time, but it looks like my wish never came true.

I didn't remember you being the one to oppose Lenore. (I know someone used to mock "lasagna", but I had forgotten who). You tend to be against more popular oversimplified descriptions, and I thought Berens' terms like "foreseeing", "analyzing", "considering", "valuing", etc. fit that better.
My scope is far more than Lenore, but when it comes to understanding the functions, she's recognized as being a very good place to start. All "lasagna" was, was her analogy of the function stack. There's really nothing unique to her about that. I don't see what the problem with that is.

I take definitions with a grain of salt since they can vary from person to person. To wit:

This is exemplified by the fact that Extraverts tend to have shorter attention spans and frequently shift their focus from one thing to the next. Their social relationships and interactions are also more extensive in nature, characterized by breadth rather than depth. Jung viewed Introversion as more intensive and focused. Instead of constantly shifting or extending their attention, Introverts dive deeper by investing more of their time and energy into a handful of things they really care about.

Were I to reclassify myself every time I read a blurb, I would have to classify myself an introvert after reading that. Then I'd read something else and classify myself an extravert. It could continue on, ad nauseam. But as you know, people are frequently a combination of both extraversion and introversion and that's why black and white thinking and the definitions born from it fall so short. How someone views Ni and Ne is no exception. To exclude the future when discussing Ni would be as strange as excluding wetness when discussing rain.

Well, yeah, all type theories are prone to misunderstandings like that. Jung himself was very hard to understand, and that's why so many people have tried to clarify him. I would agree that that description is a bit shallow, taken in isolation. (Hence, the type stack others further developed behind him, where you have both Te and Ni, and thus both introversion and extraversion, and so can identify with that description even if the extraverted function is out front making you an extravert).

No one's excluding the future from Ni; just saying that's not its main definition. Like wetness is not the definition of rain. If someone asks “What's rain?” and the answer given is simply “wetness”, that really won't tell you much at all. People will think a lake must be "rain". Describing the process that produces rain without mentioning wetness (like mentioning "condensation" instead) isn't excluding it. There are other planets where that same process produces solids, like diamonds, which aren't “wet” (and IIRC, goes straight from gas to solid), and yet that's still called "rain". So our definition of rain must go beyond mere "wetness". (Now if you say "earth rain", then you have a qualifier, like qualifying a specific instance of using Ni to try to foresee something. But the function still goes way beyond just that sort of instance).

 

[Pionart]

I wasn't making “soul” synonymous with Feeling. I was pointing out that Feeling can be described as the function that deals in “matters of the soul”.

Yeah, I know that's what you were saying, but I'm pointing out that it's probably not the best term to be using.

Feeling does deal better with life. The whole thing that Feeling will personify an object, and Thinking will objectify a person (roughly speaking).

But "soul" means more than just being alive and having a mind. I can't say for sure what it means, but it has deeply spiritual connotations that probably aren't relevant for this matter.

 

[Jaguar]

I thought Berens' terms like "foreseeing", "analyzing", "considering", "valuing", etc. fit that better.

But you chose not to use the word despite claiming it's a better fit. And that made sense to you?

 

[Eric B]

I meant, they fit "popular oversimplified descriptions" better.

Yeah, I know that's what you were saying, but I'm pointing out that it's probably not the best term to be using.

Feeling does deal better with life. The whole thing that Feeling will personify an object, and Thinking will objectify a person (roughly speaking).

But "soul" means more than just being alive and having a mind. I can't say for sure what it means, but it has deeply spiritual connotations that probably aren't relevant for this matter.

I was using it to mean "life" basically (that is, sapient life).

 

[Jaguar]

So you want to make up unpopular, complex definitions that don't actually have anything to do with the cog process. Isn't that cute. In closing, if you are having this much trouble with the basics when this material has been repeatedly discussed in this forum for over a decade, there's a problem on your end.

 

[Eric B]

As much as you complain of people's misunderstandings of the concepts in the forum, I don't see how you can appeal to what's been "repeatedly discussed" here. I'm not having trouble with it; these definitions work for me, and some others like them as well. Introverted Thinking looks to further clarify and better define things (and extraverted iNtuition then seeks to present them as "ideas" for others to consider), and often, it won't be popular or agreed upon. If no one did this, then no new understandings of things would ever be created.
This started because you didn't like a term connected with "forbode" and thought the somewhat more publicized "foreseeing" was better. So let everyone think NJ's are some sort of fortunetellers or something, and then have more misunderstanding to complain about when people say silly things reflecting that belief.
If this is so wrong, then what is right? Do you simply follow all of Berens definitions?

 

[Jaguar]

As much as you complain of people's misunderstandings of the concepts in the forum, I don't see how you can appeal to what's been "repeatedly discussed" here. I'm not having trouble with it; these definitions work for me, and some others like them as well. Introverted Thinking looks to further clarify and better define things (and extraverted iNtuition then seeks to present them as "ideas" for others to consider), and often, it won't be popular or agreed upon. If no one did this, then no new understandings of things would ever be created.
This started because you didn't like a term connected with "forbode" and thought the somewhat more publicized "foreseeing" was better. So let everyone think NJ's are some sort of fortunetellers or something, and then have more misunderstanding to complain about when people say silly things reflecting that belief.
If this is so wrong, then what is right? Do you simply follow all of Berens definitions?

Considering how infrequently I even engage in these basic conversations in recent years, your post makes little sense. Ni isn't about fortune-telling. Or foreboding. You struck out again.

 

[Eric B]

I know it's not about fortune telling. I'm saying "foreseeing" is what gives that impression. The term "forebode" conveys more of a sense of an internal hunch or gut feeling. I'm trying to point these things away from actions, and toward perspectives (hence, "forbodance").
"Struck out"? Why is this some sort of bout, over a disagreement of the best term to use? If you don't agree with it; you stated it, and so fine.

 

[Jaguar]

Get on Google and type in: introverted intuition.

 

[Eric B]

First two hits are from Personality Junkie. I always liked him ,and see him as pretty good (along with Personality Hacker.

It is often said that human beings rely more heavily on vision than any of the other senses. This seems especially true of INJs, who often report a strong visual element to their Introverted Intuition. They often think by way of images rather than words. Their intuitions often manifest in the form of symbols, images, dreams, or patterns. This is consistent with Jung’s characterization of the Ni type as a dreamer, artist, or seer. There is a distinct visual character to these notions, which is why vision-related terms—foresight, insight, seer, visionary, etc.—are invariably used in describing INJs.

Of all types, INJs are those most concerned with the “big picture.” This can be understood in terms of their Ni, which is the most abstract and forward-looking of all functions. Ni is comprehensive and holistic. Its visions, answers, and insights manifest as comprehensive wholes.

This I agree with. It's about the inner vision; and "foresight" is only one term used to describe it, not the definition.

The next one after those is Personality Growth Introverted Intuition (Ni) - Personality Growth

Introverted Intuition (Ni) deals with understanding how the world works through internal intuitive analysis. Ni relies on gut feelings and intuition about a situation to help them understand. Introverted Intuition does not look at what is seen. Introverted Intuition forms an internal map and framework of how things work. The map is slowly adapted and adjusted over time to allow the user to get a better sense of the “big picture of things” and what steps to take to get the desired outcome.

Introverted Intuition will take pieces of abstract information and make sense of it. It is not interested so much in concrete facts, as it is with the essence of ideas and theories, and how they all fit together. They are very good at recognizing patterns.

Introverted Intuition may sense that something is off. They may notice a person’s tone of voice, a momentary pause, or body language that is incongruent to how they typically behave. These factors are observed in a more abstract way, making it difficult for the Ni user to explain their conclusion to others. They just get an overall feel or aura of the situation.

Introverted Intuition can actually be compared very similarly with Introverted Sensing. Both take into account past events and how they unfolded. While Introverted Sensing will remember the facts and details of a past experience, Introverted Intuition will recall the essence of what happened and how events eventually played out. Ni users can take past experiences to assess a current situation, and then use this memory bank of experiences of what they sense will happen to envision whether a plan will be successful.

This I also agree with. We see here Ni can even deal with the past, like Si.

Next, Career Planner Introverted Intuiting (Ni) Explained - One of Your Eight Cognitive Functions

People whose dominant function is Introverted Intuiting (Ni) usually experience the world as such:

You are used to having insights and hunches that frequently turn out to be correct. These "aha" moments are introverted intuiting at work.

What happens is this. You feed your mind with information and data. You let your unconscious mind process the data. Then, perhaps when you are in the shower, or jogging, the answer just pops into your mind.

It's not magical nor mystical. It's simply that, of the 4 ways to get information (the 4 perceiving functions), Ni is the only one that easily taps into the unconscious. In fact, Ni is the only perceiving function that is not under conscious control.

Another good description. Again, the "future" element is just one part of it.

 

[Pionart]

Heh, Ni discussion in an F/T thread...

Just a note that there are other aspects of Ni (as mentioned in the Ni/Ne thread), including but not limited to: imagination, speculation, philosophising, conceptual representation.

 

[Norexan]

So let everyone think NJ's are some sort of fortunetellers or something, and then have more misunderstanding to complain about when people say silly things reflecting that belief.

Ni can see the future. So every person who has a Ni is a fortuneteller but not everyone possess WISDOM of Ni which to SP-s sounds like magick. Period
In people Ni is usually pair with Fe as his dominate function and this is acceptable in society. All other types are so strange to people that they cannot process how they brain actually operate.


Also introverted ENTJ is not INTP nor INTJ but ISTP!
Extroverted INTJ is not ENTJ but ENTP!

So if you are xNTJ you can be only ENTJ or ISTP! Period!