Curing religious belief think-tank

[EcK]

First off, this thread is aimed at people who consider religious beliefs to be a form of delusion, if you don't I'd be happy to debate you outside of this thread which is why i've placed it on the 'psychology' sub forum rather than 'spirituality'. Thanks.

Hi Guys,

here's something I've been pondering for quite a bit.
While there's alot of knowledge and studies about religious belief etc.
I've yet to come across a solid, systematized and effective 'guideline' as to how to approach the irrational beliefs found in religion and allow people to regain 'critical thinking' (ie: belief based on some amount of coherence/evidence as people do in most areas of their lives).

I'd like to start collecting ideas on the topic

The keys are:
- What aspects of religion acts as 'blocks' to the questioning of their religious/magical beliefs
- What could influence it: (behavior, etc.)
- Is it type dependant, do different types have different 'defense mechanisms' or is overall type not strictly relevant.
- What method would you recommend in 'de-brainwashing' and individual and what strengthes/weaknesses do you think this method would have
- what research do you find relevant on the topic
- how to go about testing what works and what doesn't, preferably with 'smaller steps' than trying to 'curing' a person right off. Perhaps by testing it on similar but 'smaller' stubbornly held irrational beliefs.
- what 'small' religious types beliefs could be used for testing?
- what overall methodology would you propose for this venture

We can then regularly select methods which seem backed up by research and go more indepth

 

[geedoenfj]

I would like to know the answers [emoji106]🏻

 

[Luke O]

Isn't the main method of indoctrination people to get them while they're young? Before they've properly developed their ability to think critically and question the world, tell them God is real. Also obtain obedience and conformity through fear - fear of God is a powerful tool against rational thinking and discovering the truth. And it makes adults infect their own children too.

 

[geedoenfj]

Isn't the main method of indoctrination people to get them while they're young? Before they've properly developed their ability to think critically and question the world, tell them God is real. Also obtain obedience and conformity through fear - fear of God is a powerful tool against rational thinking and discovering the truth. And it makes adults infect their own children too.

What is otherwise in your opinion that makes children obey the the rules and be afraid of the consequences when it isn't obeyed?

 

[Luke O]

Humans believe in GOD because religion fulfills our 16 basic desires | Daily Mail Online

Basically I read it as the religious being dependent on God, like a drug dependency, whether they want to believe or not. If it fulfils these "16 desires" it must be hard to tear away from it.

- - - Updated - - -

What is otherwise in your opinion that makes children obey the the rules and be afraid of the consequences when it isn't obeyed?

Children are more likely to accept what they are told as fact, compared to adults.

 

[geedoenfj]

Humans believe in GOD because religion fulfills our 16 basic desires | Daily Mail Online

Basically I read it as the religious being dependent on God, like a drug dependency, whether they want to believe or not. If it fulfils these "16 desires" it must be hard to tear away from it.

- - - Updated - - -



Children are more likely to accept what they are told as fact, compared to adults.

What fact that your parents told you or you told your children that you just accept with no argue? Like what discriminates a fact from an opinion?

 

[Jaguar]

Peer pressure.
The need to belong.
Inability to take the heat for thinking differently, re:religion or otherwise.
Not wanting to take the reins of life into one's own hands and ride.

Ever watch The Academy Awards? (Is it even televised where you are?) "First and foremost I'd like to thank God." God. Really? How about yourself, since you did the work. Could it be that religion blasts the skull with the idea that you cannot do it on your own, breeding doubt and inner weakness, rather than self-empowerment? But then do certain religions even want you to be empowered, or do they want to have power over you?

 

[Qlip]

...
- what 'small' religious types beliefs could be used for testing?
...

I think a really great starting point would be to correct all of those Atheists who believe in ghosts and convince them they were wrong. When you've figured out how to do that, you could figure out how to get the Agnostics to make up their mind. Then from there you can convince a secular Buddhists to not be so 'spiritual'. All that should be easy, and you'd learn a lot before tackling the bigger task.

 

[Lark]

So what do you make of Chris Hedges' suggestion that Atheism is now a religion and a fundamentalist one at that?

Fucks with the cowboys and injuns dichotomy huh?

 

[Riva]

Most religious people in the world are people who have been taught religion at school. At that age once you are brainwashed it's hard to shake it lose.

One that is done from what i have noticed your religion becomes a part of your heritage (your religion is already a part of your culture) and then it becomes a part of your personality. Denying your religion means you are denying your culture your people your beliefs and your personality. Everything has become connected.

My point is that it should be banable to teach religion to kids in schools if your intention is to cure them.

Funny thing is societies/countires that are least religiously influenzed are the most well to do countires with better living conditions.

 

[EcK]

So what do you make of Chris Hedges' suggestion that Atheism is now a religion and a fundamentalist one at that?

Fucks with the cowboys and injuns dichotomy huh?

Well yes atheists can be dogmatic too. That is true. The rational approach is to me a form of 'scientific agnosticism' meaning the invisible omnipotent dad-in-the-sky is possible though as possible as any other things we could imagine. if there's no evidence or predictive power to this hypothesis there's no basis for it. Worst, many things in world leading religions are self contradictory, or contradict basic facts about the world we know today (round earth, etc.). Or are simply odd types of things to say if coming from a being knowing and having created the universe (aka: it actually comes from tribal people with as much knowledge of the world as 5th graders today).

delusion
dɪˈl(j)uːʒ(ə)n/
noun
noun: delusion; plural noun: delusions

an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder

Religious/supernatural belief fit the definition of a delusion. The fact so many people have it doesn't make it less so. That's akin to saying that if alot of people have clear skin clear skin doesn't exist.

 

[EcK]

Isn't the main method of indoctrination people to get them while they're young? Before they've properly developed their ability to think critically and question the world, tell them God is real. Also obtain obedience and conformity through fear - fear of God is a powerful tool against rational thinking and discovering the truth. And it makes adults infect their own children too.

Ok so luke (as well as [MENTION=22067]riva[/MENTION]) is a proponent of PREVENTION. That is indeed a good method, however it doesn't 'cure' the problem on an individual / medium term level. (by problem i mean the set of delusional beliefs with no basis in observed reality and no predictive power)

 

[EcK]

Peer pressure.
The need to belong.
Inability to take the heat for thinking differently, re:religion or otherwise.
Not wanting to take the reins of life into one's own hands and ride.

Ever watch The Academy Awards? (Is it even televised where you are?) "First and foremost I'd like to thank God." God. Really? How about yourself, since you did the work. Could it be that religion blasts the skull with the idea that you cannot do it on your own, breeding doubt and inner weakness, rather than self-empowerment? But then do certain religions even want you to be empowered, or do they want to have power over you?

In summary: Jaguar thinks FALSE ATTRIBUTION OF CAUSALITY/PRAISE is an important factor.
for example: thanking supernatural creatures for the result of your own work/a doctor's work etc.

 

[EcK]

I think a really great starting point would be to correct all of those Atheists who believe in ghosts and convince them they were wrong. When you've figured out how to do that, you could figure out how to get the Agnostics to make up their mind. Then from there you can convince a secular Buddhists to not be so 'spiritual'. All that should be easy, and you'd learn a lot before tackling the bigger task.

In terms of METHODOLOGY, QLIP is a proponent of working its way up with individuals of increasing levels of DOGMA.
example: convince atheists/agnostics to 'get rid of' 'mild' superstitious delusions and work your way up.

I'd be interested to see a more detailled account of such a step by step approach

 

[EcK]

Humans believe in GOD because religion fulfills our 16 basic desires | Daily Mail Online

Basically I read it as the religious being dependent on God, like a drug dependency, whether they want to believe or not. If it fulfils these "16 desires" it must be hard to tear away from it.

Luke's key point on the CAUSES of religious beliefs (appart from early endocrination which I think the majority of us agree with --> see prevention vs curing) is
that religions fulfill CORE human desires and that is why they are so hard to rectify (by rectify i mean to allow the individual to retain a similar level of objectivity as they would in other areas of their lives)

Interesting point Luke, would you care to expand on that or connect it to one of the answers I quoted above?

 

[EcK]

Isn't the main method of indoctrination people to get them while they're young? Before they've properly developed their ability to think critically and question the world, tell them God is real. Also obtain obedience and conformity through fear - fear of God is a powerful tool against rational thinking and discovering the truth. And it makes adults infect their own children too.

Ok so luke is a proponent of PREVENTION. That is indeed a good method, however it doesn't 'cure' the problem. (by problem i mean the set of delusional beliefs with no basis in observed reality and no predictive power).

More importantly, people who are not religion don't have a specific tendency to endrocrinate their children. It's the religious parents / one of the parents who do. How then can prevention be applied without societial changes but on a more interpersonal level without requiring to pass new laws etc. which as we all know is difficult to do in countries where a majority of people are believers.

 

[Lark]

Well yes atheists can be dogmatic too. That is true. The rational approach is to me a form of 'scientific agnosticism' meaning the invisible omnipotent dad-in-the-sky is possible though as possible as any other things we could imagine. if there's no evidence or predictive power to this hypothesis there's no basis for it. Worst, many things in world leading religions are self contradictory, or contradict basic facts about the world we know today (round earth, etc.). Or are simply odd types of things to say if coming from a being knowing and having created the universe (aka: it actually comes from tribal people with as much knowledge of the world as 5th graders today).



Religious/supernatural belief fit the definition of a delusion. The fact so many people have it doesn't make it less so. That's akin to saying that if alot of people have clear skin clear skin doesn't exist.

I have never formed an opinion on anything on the basis that enough people support it, why did you suppose that about me?

Religion as I understand it is not delusional, its also got nothing to do with any "sky father" as you put it, I think perhaps you've read an atheist book and are a little fired up about it right now and the thinking it had to impart.

I personally dont like the whole "new dogmas for old" approach to thinking, if I had to choose between dogmas, and I'm not a fan of dogmas to be honest, then I would not choose the immature one and I tend to find its strange that that sort of thinking can and does prevail so much.

 

[EcK]

I have never formed an opinion on anything on the basis that enough people support it, why did you suppose that about me?

I didn't assume that. Perhaps you misunderstood my meaning? I was agreeing with you that some atheists and for that matter, people in any groups, can be dogmatic. I then told you that I did not define myself as an atheist (as I do not have definitive knowledge of anything)

Religion as I understand it is not delusional, its also got nothing to do with any "sky father" as you put it, I think perhaps you've read an atheist book and are a little fired up about it right now and the thinking it had to impart.

No not at all. That's been my opinion for.. well . About 20 years. I think you misunderstood my post as an ad hominem attack and are 'firing back' at me. Care to get back to the discussion at hand?

I personally dont like the whole "new dogmas for old" approach to thinking, if I had to choose between dogmas, and I'm not a fan of dogmas to be honest, then I would not choose the immature one and I tend to find its strange that that sort of thinking can and does prevail so much.

What thinking more specifically?

 

[Luke O]

What fact that your parents told you or you told your children that you just accept with no argue? Like what discriminates a fact from an opinion?

I had a secular upbringing at home but it was primary school who tried to put the fear of God into me. Thankfully there was a lot less of that in high school.

I was more likely to accept an opinion as fact when I was younger. I guess that's why I was so homophobic as a kid.

 

[Luke O]

Ok so luke (as well as [MENTION=22067]riva[/MENTION]) is a proponent of PREVENTION. That is indeed a good method, however it doesn't 'cure' the problem on an individual / medium term level. (by problem i mean the set of delusional beliefs with no basis in observed reality and no predictive power)

OK, I'm taking something that Christians use to defend themselves from reality, the "armour of god".

I propose an "armour of reasoning"

Helmet of critical thought
Kevlar suit of self-confidence
Backpack of knowledge
Army boots of perseverance
Automatic rifle of debate