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  1. #121
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Sep 2008
    5w4 sx/sp


    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I would actually prefer her to be autistic so I can have a reason why she behaves as she does instead of believing that she's just an asshole because the sun shines.
    I do believe that was my point.

    Didn't you say this to me nearly verbatim last week? When you besmirch my character, please do so originally. I don't mind being psychoanalyzed, but I'd like to hear some new stuff to promptly disregard from you.
    Did I? I don't remember that. But I am nothing if not consistent.

    (<----Hyperbolic Flourish, in case you don't know).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #122
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Jun 2007


    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post

    If only RD Laing had the recognition and influence that Freud has.

    It's funny. We use diagnostic terms to label those who are different, as if to foster understanding, tolerance and compassion. But when did focusing on differences ever achieve that?
    R D Laing!
    The name rings a distant bell. Ding, ding.
    Sanity, Madness and Family.. middle sixties.
    The curse of the double bind.

    Poverty is called schizophrenia. There is six times as much schizophrenia in a poor barrio as there is schizophrenia in a waspy neighbourhood. Say, Pasadena. Or Westwood, LA.
    Mrs Robinson lived there.
    There is six times as much schizophrenia among the homeless as there is schizophrenia in a poor barrio.
    Take Little Italy: Indianapolis or Chicago.
    The Italians moved away a long time hence. The Hispanics live there now.
    Many of them do not have papers. Unless the baby is born, of course.
    Then the poor mother is given a paper. It reads: Schizophrenia.
    Divide and rule, as you say.

    The signs of mental illness are in disrespute. You hear voices? So what? Everybody does.
    There is a limit to the stress one can take.


    Control equals drive exactly, or energy exactly: It is the threshold of stability.
    The junction point. Too sane to be true.

    Effect of stress: Fatigue. Energy or drive is low, but control is lower.
    In this condition you can hear voices. There is no censure.
    The impulses in the limbic system have a free access.
    It does not have anything to do with insanity.
    Nothing has.

  3. #123
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Mar 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    If only RD Laing had the recognition and influence that Freud has.
    Ronald Laing was a uniquely gifted therapist but it looks as though he was not as gifted as a theoretician.

    And this explains why he didn't achieve the recognition and influence of Freud.

    But still, it is hard to think of R.D. Laing without affection.

    And he was a Scot, just like you.

  4. #124
    Senior Member rainoneventide's Avatar
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    Jun 2009


    I wrote a giant post, but this is a ton more concise:

    "I'm better at my job than him," not, "I'm better than him because I'm better at my job."
    "So I say, live and let live. Thats my motto. Live and let live.
    Anyone who cant go along with that, take him outside and shoot the motherfucker."
    - George Carlin

  5. #125
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Jun 2007


    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Yes, you are right I did say that. I mentioned it possibly being a nasty rumor because I have heard no confirmation/denial from her and I did not want to assume. I don't assume someone has a mental illness because I don't get along with them. Give me some credit please.:rolli: I would actually prefer her to be autistic so I can have a reason why she behaves as she does instead of believing that she's just an asshole because the sun shines.

    Oh, she is difficult. People have left the department because of her. She's been mentioned as a cause for leaving in exit interviews. I've gone to HR and they say they are well aware of the problem. But most people deal with it through leaving, avoiding, and accommodating, not by actually saying anything to her.

    Didn't you say this to me nearly verbatim last week? When you besmirch my character, please do so originally. I don't mind being psychoanalyzed, but I'd like to hear some new stuff to promptly disregard from you.

    Here's this thing I learned about called reframing.

    What I'm going to do is I'm going to reframe her as a unhealthy INTP (not really I'm pretty sure she's INFP but for the purposes of this post I'll call her INTP). That way, all her outbursts and toxic behavior can be chalked up to "inferior Fe." And you can call my unsubstantiated complaints inferior Ti or just being plain ol' Fe. Because laying this at the feet of the most likely cause, that she may really have some mental disorder, is offensive to you. But if it's just normal INTP behavior, to be a jerk, then all is well. So I'll give you something within your sphere of knowledge and understanding so you can have your aha moment.

    We've had several heated exchanges. And how did you guess how much I being called insubordinate! More reframing: For a Fe-dom to be continually insubordinate, it's a very freeing experience. Screw being agreeable. Must be like an INTP actually giving a damn. Give me the social skills of an INTP and the world unfurls in front of me! (<----Hyperbolic Flourish, in case you don't know).

    Alright, I spent the last 15 minutes of my lunch responding to you and I've got to get back to doing some work. If I feel like going back and forth with you, I'll do it after quittin time.
    Did they leave the department because of her? Or did they leave the department because of themselves?

    I am an INTP and an autist. I am wise in the way of the world. Do you know why?
    The good Lord said: Blessed are the poor in spirit.

    I give you the answer. Here and now.

    I worked in a kibbutz. One day I was assigned to work in the flower department. They called it the plants. I did not know anyone there. A Dutch girl taught me how to plant tulips.
    It was not difficult. They also told me to even the ground. It was not difficult either.
    We started well before dawn. The first coffee break was at ten.
    I had worked alone. There had been no dispute or argument. Apart from the Dutch girl, they had not even seen me yet.
    We sat in the garden. The others were women past middle age, or so it seemed to me. I was young. The Dutch girl was about my age, or older.

    I wondered why everybody was so unfriendly. They were not only unfriendly, they were like dead. Their behaviour was unnatural. Not mine. I wondered what was wrong. Had the Dutch girl complained about me? I had not even talked with her. I had listened what she said. Then I did what she told me to do. She had been neither friendly or unfriendly.
    I would not have asked her for a date. She was stiff, barren, cold, whatever.. but I did not analyze her. I was not interested in her. I was interested in learning the job.
    I was like I am usually when I want to get along. I was almost polite and friendly. I asked only valid questions. She was not much of a talker either.

    It was the same thing, day after day. I worked hard. I did not only work my hours, I used to come back to work after the other volunteers had gone home.
    I did not talk with anyone. There was nobody to talk to.
    The atmosphere during the coffee break did not change. A frozen, unnatural stillness prevailed.
    Three weeks later I was fired.
    I heard the women in the plant had made an official complaint about me, every day, during the three weeks I worked in the plants.
    The official asked what is wrong in my work. They said nothing is wrong in the work.
    They said they are very much afraid. The official asked: Why? They could not explain.

    Did the ladies file their complaints because of me?
    Or did they file their complaints because of themselves?

    If you say they filed the complaints because of me, you have to tell me why.
    And you cannot. Because there is nothing to tell.

  6. #126
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007


    Sorry, been busy. Would have liked to reply earlier.

    Jennifer: Thank you for your understanding with some problematic personalities. Some people make it hard to distinguish if they're just ill but well-meaning, or if they're just total asses.

    Same goes for Proteanmix's case.

    Bluemonday: Perhaps you're playing the devil's advocate here. Playing that perhaps it doesn't matter what shit someone does, they're all god's children, peace man, etc etc. That, along with the I'm-impartial-and-you're-wrong gets a partial score from me. You're not personally offensive (that's a plus), but I disagree with most of your points.

    Whoever misunderstood something I said and whom I corrected, sorry if I said something offensive. I was offended by what you said and rebounded the offense. No harm done, we're cool.

    I wish I didn't have to do 13-15 hr work days.

  7. #127
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Apr 2007
    594 sx/sp
    LII Ne


    I wish I didn't have to do 13-15 hr work days.
    Those suck. Hope you can avoid as many of them as possible.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #128
    Join Date
    Oct 2009


    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    Previously known as "This is a hard topic for me. I'm not sure how to label it. Perhaps I'll do it later"

    Uhh. I am sure every kind of leftist people will rush in this thread to discipline of my wicked, "Te" ways or whatnot. But.

    I beg you to leave your prejudice at the front door before entering this thread.

    First of all, I'll give you an introduction to the topic.

    The idea of "better" and "worse" has been used for a damned long time. The very reason for it seems obvious. That's one of the most easiest, and natural disction to make. People are naturally drawn to it.

    Then we have a *huge*, overwhelming consensus about what we should apply this concept on. I.e. We should not apply it to anything.

    There's no better and worse DVD players. They're only different. No better or worse cigarettes. Some of them are just popular, but that's a no aspect of their general "goodness". If there is such a concept.

    And then we come to, - oh heavens - yes, we come to people. Now, people are sacred. Oh heavens, there can't be better and worse people? I mean, per equality theorems, people are equal - blasphemy! Some people are just different, they're special, etc - but not worse than the other person. Right?

    But, then.

    Example 1.

    You come to know a person at a place you work in. (S)He seems to have his/her mind wandering on strange topics, he's late, walks like a drunken person, eyes going to off directions. Gives an impression of someone retarded, but you don't know for sure if it's retardation, of if the person is just drugged, or just chosen to be strange. After a month you get to know, the person has the most lousy opinion about everything. (S)he doesn't qualify for a normal adult. Your idea of people being "equal" is served by a single thought: every person deserves to be treated well. You do so. You treat that person well. You think (s)he is equal in your books.


    Example 2.
    You are attracted to a person because of their looks. They seem OK at the beginning. They end up being incredibly controlling, insecure, and they're having incredibly bad job. They have problems about everything under the sun. Did you walk in from the door the wrong way? It gives them anxiety. Did the mailman drop the mail from the letterbox in an "offensive manner"? They think it tells of a wish to "dominate" or something like that. Perhaps the mailman is out to get them. You sit next to a person. THey get anxious. They've failed at work. Your sitting next to them makes them remember the time they failed. It seems offensive to them. They end up shouting you're a terrible person.

    Example 3.
    Someone thinks they have the perfect world view. Everyone should be equal, and materialist conditions should not be looked upon to make an evaluation of the person. It's the thought that counts, you know. You introduce the person to someone. They are mute, they seem to hold a grudge, and they dismiss the introduction with contempt. They move on to say they don't need anything, it's all the same, and nothing matters. Soon they complain they're anxious about coming payday. They think they're not getting enough salary. They haven't worked much. They didn't like to work, because the work was terrible. They haven't applied for a job, because any job isn't quite right for them. They think it's the society's fault to make things like this. When they go to a job interview, they make a terrible impression of themselves. They dismiss the evaluation as biased. They know what's it like to be "them" inside. No-one should evaluate them according to external standards.

    In other words, the people in the 3 examples are some kind of a failures. Big or small, situational or not, failures nevertheless. We aren't supposed to recognize any of them as such.

    Suppose you were to seek a person of equal level for some purpose. You were to seek them for a mate, friend, business partner, peer, etc.

    You would probably make the evaluation that the person #1. #2 or #3 weren't quite "at your level". You mean, you couldn't imagine gaining relevant insight of the world from any of those persons. They had something attractive, or something that drew your attention. When you saw the all of it, you noticed - to your sadness - they were no good.

    Now that's when it gets hard to believe in equality of people in all respects.

    This is a heavily hated topic for most of the people in modern society. We are giving equal opportunity to everyone. But, some persons show as examples, that people are not quite equal in many respects.

    How do you handle this?

    Do you have a ladder of your own, where some people are on the "top" and some people are at the bottom? What kind of ladder it is?

    In my ladder, people lowest on the life skills are at the bottom. If someone is angry at everyone, has the mindset of a disturbed 3-year old, etc. He's at the bottom. If someone doesn't want to develop themselves - they are incompatible with most everyone, they can't adapt to situations, they don't know how to behave, they are pathologically silent / unresponsive / uncaring / departed from this world, they are at the bottom.

    There's not a prepared diagnosis for everyone. If there were a nice label for someone, I'd understood them better. Someone is behind the social development compared to people of their age? Okay, that's understandable. Lack of social development can be managed, given that the person has some aspects of decent development.

    But, then there are some examples that almost force you to place a ranking of human success for people. You just can't hold them as equally successful.

    Then you get the bad feeling of elitism. Isn't elitism bad? You're only liking someone strong, you only approve of winners, etc. Isn't that terrible. But given how bad some people can be, you can't help but to rank people according to their abilities, how good they seem, etc.

    You have become elitist, no matter how egalitarian you were at the beginning.

    Now this is a taboo subject. I find this subject much polarized. People are being called "nazi" for noticing people to have better and worse opportunities for a good life.

    So, I now got it off my chest. You have noticed I didn't make a central claim or proposition to the subject. That was intentional.
    Interesting, controversial topic. I'm going to state right off that as a person and not an internet pressence, I fit two out of your three descriptions. Objectively speaking, I know that its my own lack of social skills. Subjectively, I dislike being judged by the brand of clothing I wear, whether I speak confidently or stutter, ranked on a scale of usefulness for helping someone accomplish something. Basically, I dislike being objectified.

    Personally, I don't objectify people unless they start judging and ranking me for whatever reasons - not smart enough, not realistic enough, too strange, quiet, loser, whatever. And when they do, I'm justified to reject their individuality and personality, for that amount of depth which they've shown and their judgemental attitude, which is something just as alien and foreign to my psyche.

  9. #129
    Meat Tornado DiscoBiscuit's Avatar
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    Apr 2009


    Everyone is just a person until their actions or words tell me otherwise.
    Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
    - Edmund Burke

    8w9 sx/so

  10. #130
    Join Date
    Oct 2009


    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Everyone is just a person until their actions or words tell me otherwise.
    Assuming that this is in response to my earlier reply: How does this make you more of a person that the people you objectify? Because you are a more functional human being? If I wish to be contrary, I can simply turn your words on yourself. But responding emotionally is the last thing I want to do, so will be my last response for this thread lol

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