[Traditional Enneagram] How to step out of observer mode

[Klinx]

I can see a meaning in participation in the world in order to make changes, even if it doesn't come as natural and isn't prioritized. The problem is that interacting with the world, I always feel like I'm assuming a role. My actions, words, even emotional display are all calculated. The discomfort is ignored, when I see myself doing it for an important purpose, but other than that it's why I am uncomfortable communicating - to me my natural self is that of an observer. Even if I intervene, I perceive it as doing actions to influence the world, without myself getting involved-only orchestrating it from a corner in my mind.
Sometimes I do like interacting and participating, like sharing information etc. but forming any sort of a connection feels unnatural. However, it's all but the opposite with the person I'm in love with and want an extremely intimate connection with.
Is there a way for us type 5s to interact with the world, without feeling like an alien doing so ?

 

[Virtual ghost]

I can see a meaning in participation in the world in order to make changes, even if it doesn't come as natural and isn't prioritized. The problem is that interacting with the world, I always feel like I'm assuming a role. My actions, words, even emotional display are all calculated. The discomfort is ignored, when I see myself doing it for an important purpose, but other than that it's why I am uncomfortable communicating - to me my natural self is that of an observer. Even if I intervene, I perceive it as doing actions to influence the world, without myself getting involved-only orchestrating it from a corner in my mind.
Sometimes I do like interacting and participating, like sharing information etc. but forming any sort of a connection feels unnatural. However, it's all but the opposite with the person I'm in love with and want an extremely intimate connection with.
Is there a way for us type 5s to interact with the world, without feeling like an alien doing so ?

You know, back in a day I was making these kinds of posts on this forum and I know exactly what you mean.


My suggestions are:


Do what you think that should be done and without regrets. (but skip obviously stupid choices)
Challange people openly when you think they are wrong. Most people are submissive if the person has obviously better argument.
Use certainty of your thoughts for certaintly of your actions.
Join some kind of group, guild or something where people do wha interest you.
Have ambitions, therefore you often wouldn't even notice that you are interacting with world.
You like to research so research more the mainstream stuff, so that you can pull off conversation if needed.
Accept that you as a INTJ probably are smarter and more knowledgeable than most. (and there is nothing really alien about that)
If you are rised in this INTJish way try to distance yourself from that, the biggest problem is that you see and define yourself as "alien".

 

[Coriolis]

Is there a way for us type 5s to interact with the world, without feeling like an alien doing so ?

[MENTION=4347]Virtual ghost[/MENTION]'s comments are worthwhile. I would add that you don't have to form personal connections with everyone you meet. No one does, and that is especially true of our type. I find as long as there are a couple of people (other than my SO) with whom I can connect, that is enough. The rest I interact with through those roles that you mentioned. There is nothing wrong with doing so, as long as you have an outlet with those few people close to you. It keeps things running smoothly and avoids much unwanted grief.

 

[nonsequitur]

I can see a meaning in participation in the world in order to make changes, even if it doesn't come as natural and isn't prioritized. The problem is that interacting with the world, I always feel like I'm assuming a role. My actions, words, even emotional display are all calculated. The discomfort is ignored, when I see myself doing it for an important purpose, but other than that it's why I am uncomfortable communicating - to me my natural self is that of an observer. Even if I intervene, I perceive it as doing actions to influence the world, without myself getting involved-only orchestrating it from a corner in my mind.
Sometimes I do like interacting and participating, like sharing information etc. but forming any sort of a connection feels unnatural. However, it's all but the opposite with the person I'm in love with and want an extremely intimate connection with.
Is there a way for us type 5s to interact with the world, without feeling like an alien doing so ?

I'm a 5 who acts more like an 8 now. I probably would've related a lot to what you wrote there a few years ago, but now not so much.

What feels "natural" is only a matter of habit; the less often you reach out, the more "exceptional" and "unnatural" it will seem. The more you make a point of doing it, the lower the barrier will seem. Even rejection will feel less painful the more times you get rejected. Without stepping out of your comfort zone, there will be no growth - so the only way forward is to do/seek what you fear and reject.

5s only tend to step out of the "observer" role to participate if they feel that it's important. I guess in the last few years, what I've realised is that I do find a number of things important, and recognise that we all have limited amounts of time on earth. If we choose to only observe, it's a waste of the time given to us in our lives.

This is what I told my student (another 5) recently - he wanted to stay out of the politics surrounding the lab and only focus on what was important to him (his work). But the politics itself could affect his being able to graduate (as unrelated to his project as it is, objectively). So I quoted Hamilton at him "when you have skin in the game, you stay in the game. But you don't get a win unless you play in the game." and reminded him that the larger goal was worth playing the game for - even if it felt useless and irrelevant.

The following line in Hamilton is equally applicable: "Oh, you get love for it. You get hate for it. You get nothing if you wait for it (wait for it)". Unless action is taken, there will be no sense of agency or personal responsibility, and when things fall apart, you can conceivably blame the rest of the world. But you still don't get what you want, and you still feel out of control.

I don't wait for it anymore. I watch, but I use the information, make judgments on how necessary it is to move and the rightness of the timing, and take action. I don't know if this is what they call "integration to 8", but I'd say that I feel a lot more positive about myself and my life now that my attitude has shifted.

 

[Mole]

The Observer and Ecstasy

I can see a meaning in participation in the world in order to make changes, even if it doesn't come as natural and isn't prioritized. The problem is that interacting with the world, I always feel like I'm assuming a role. My actions, words, even emotional display are all calculated. The discomfort is ignored, when I see myself doing it for an important purpose, but other than that it's why I am uncomfortable communicating - to me my natural self is that of an observer. Even if I intervene, I perceive it as doing actions to influence the world, without myself getting involved-only orchestrating it from a corner in my mind.
Sometimes I do like interacting and participating, like sharing information etc. but forming any sort of a connection feels unnatural. However, it's all but the opposite with the person I'm in love with and want an extremely intimate connection with.
Is there a way for us type 5s to interact with the world, without feeling like an alien doing so ?

How to step outside the observer role is an interesting question.

Let us take an example: I can dance as a performance for others, or I can even dance as a performance for myself, but as I dance, if I let it, I am not performing, rather I become the dance. When the dance and the dancer become one, we enter ecstasy.

Ecstasy at first is hard to bear because it can't be taken for granted and indeed at first it is disorientating. So naturally we revert to observer status.

Ecstasy can though become part of our daily life as we start to do things for their own sake rather than for performance.

Unfortunately social media demands we perform most of the time, and even our employment demands we perform for eight hours a day. So between our employment and social media we have been cast of performers, slightly mad with no chance of escape.

In short, we are alienated from ourselves, we take our alienation for granted, and we never even think of stepping outside the taken for granted into ecstasy.