The Narcissist and the Predator: A Comparison/Contrast of 7s and 8s

[Elfboy]

Given the frequency of Enneagram 7s and 8s who mistype as each other (usually the former mistyping as the latter) and the amount of misinformation pertaining to both types, I thought I would offer my take on the similarities/differences between 7s and 8s. naturally, feel free to share any thoughts or points of dissent.

Disclaimer: In the tradition of Enneagram theorists such as Naranjo and Maitri (whose works I have consulted but not, to my knowledge, directly cited) I have chosen to focus more on the negative aspects of both types to avoid the Forer Effect and attribution bias. while the similarities section is more broad and trait based, the differences section will attempt a more causal analysis and explain the neuroses of both types. Keep in mind, I am describing natural tendencies rooting in the fixations that are both types. Outward acting upon or manifestation of said tendencies need not be present in all 7s or 8s, but, regardless of level of health, the inclinations will be there.

Similarities:
Id driven, shallow experience of emotion (except anger), flood themselves with stimulation in order feel alive, needs of self>needs of others, significant disregard for authority (which they typically don’t believe in in the first place) and difficulty fitting into hierarchical structures unless they are taking charge, able to force peoples' hands with the sheer impact of their personalities (and both prefer to as a first instinct, even though many 7s and 8s are highly intelligent), belief that they are invincible, enjoy pushing people’s buttons, may be prone to criminal behavior, provocative sense of humor with hardy laughter, lack a sense of societal obligation, staunchly resist externally imposed responsibilities, delayed emotional response to negative situations, seek power and control, internal sense of emptiness, strong sense of adventure, egocentric, prefer life in excess, sexually lusty and indulgent, assertive, confident, do not question what they want, make aggressive demands on the world, general "who cares?" attitude to most of life

 

[Elfboy]

Key Differences:
1) Gluttony vs Lust: both 7 and 8 are desire driven, but the 7's desire has a more fearful/"grass is greener" quality to it, constantly shuffling between sources of stimulation in order to avoid the inconveniences of reality that might interfere with their warped view of it. Time spent doing one thing is time spent away from something else, so 7 feel like they need to keep moving (whether physically or mentally) 8’s desire is typically channeled toward a single goal, which can range from destroying a “nemesis” to starting a company or immersion in sex or alcohol. In similar fashion to 3s, 8s can slip into “goal tunnel vision”, ignoring everything else under the impression that it is irrelevant and channeling all their energy towards their one objective, which they believe is the only thing that really matters. Naturally, it’s not difficult to see how neglected areas of the 8’s life can come back to bite him from behind.
2) Narcissism vs Sociopathy: 7s are the narcissists of the Enneagram and are obsessed with themselves. they believe the world revolves around them so they dream up grandiose fantasies and then confuse the subject matter of these fantasies with their true selves. as a result, fixated 7s can be overly demanding and expect the world to keep up the delusion that they’ve sold to themselves. Such tendencies can appear image triad related, but in reality they are the product of fearful ignorance, shutting down any possibility of reality raining on their parade. If 7 is the narcissist, 8 is the sociopath. They view the world as dog eat dog where the weak are food to be devoured and they are predators who indulge the thrill of the kill. Life to them is amoral, consequentialist and lacks the rosy delusion often present in the 7's worldview (though rosy does not necessarily imply peaceful, rather it means whatever the 7 finds appealing and convenient). at their worst, 8s start to view people as nothing more than peaces of meat and separate from concepts like human interconnectedness and the intrinsic value of life.
3) Entitlement vs Sadism: the aggression of 7s and 8s can look similar on the outside, but the sources are different. 7’s comes from a sense of entitlement. Because they think the world revolves around them, 7s believe that they inherently deserve the best and are willing to demand their desires, regardless of how unreasonably, on the external world. By contrast, 8’s aggression stems from sadism. 8s seek to conquer and dominate their environment and revel in the squirming demise of their enemies. At their worst, aggression can come completely unprovoked from no rationale other than “because I can”. Many serial killers are disintegrated 8s
4) sources of confidence: for 8s ,the source of confidence is their hardened, predator psychology. They know they can do whatever they need to, no matter how treacherous or brutal….because they just don’t care. For 7s, the source is in how they perceive themselves. There is a tendency to think “I am, therefore I can” and, given the megalomanic nature of their fantasies (which they confuse for the true self) this can lead to the 7 being absolutely convinced of his superiority sans any external affirmation. There is a good reason why 7 integrates to a competency type (5). Integrating 7s learn that they must put in the time to learn REAL competence, gain REAL experience and look at REAL life and all of its obstacles if they have any hopes of attaining their desires.
5) definitions of power: to a 7, power means freedom, options/choices, the ability to get what they want and the ability to refuse what they don't. to an 8, power means the ability to dominate and control. they want to subordinate the world to their will, whether that be objects or living creatures (8w7s are typically more concerned with controlling the material world; 8w9s with holding their stronghold or “peace making” within their social sphere).
6) Pain and Wellbeing: 7s are typically not a fan of pain, physical or emotional, and will venture great lengths to avoid it. They are more sensitive to their own wellbeing than 8s Pain snaps them back to reality and pokes holes in the naïve, optimistic frame of mind they tend to get stuck in. Episodes of pain or inconvenience can be met with severe protest and physical or verbal aggression. 7s do not take many things personally, but being dealt pain is one of them. 8s have a more paradoxical relationship with pain. On one hand, they actively seek to gain power for the sake of avoiding being controlled or harmed by others; on the other, many 8s seem to welcome it. There are two main reasons for this. 1) Pain is one of the few experiences which allows 8s to actually feel something. It reassures them that they are, in fact, alive and that there are fresh challenges to conquer and surmount. 2) many 8s deliberately seek out pain in hopes of desensitizing themselves to it and growing stronger. Ironically, their avoidance of being harmed by others often results in losing the ends in the means, leading to them to inflict the pain they so resolutely avoided at the hands of others onto themselves.

 

[Elfboy]

Examples:
7 with a 6 wing: "The Trickster"
Ryan Gosling, Richard Branson, Benjamin Franklin, Jennifer Lawrence, Lady Gaga, Marie Antoinette, Richard Feymann, Britney Spears, Mark Twain, Niall Horan "Tom Sawyer", "Zorro" (The Mask of Zorro), "Joffrey Baratheon" (Game of Thrones), “Veruca Salt” (Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory), “Jack Sparrow” (Pirates of the Carribean), “Odysseus” (The Odyssey), “Fred and George Weasley” (Harry Potter), “Peter Griffin” (Family Guy)

7 with an 8 wing: "The Hedonist"
Hugh Hefner, Madonna, Alexander the Great, Joan Collins, Snoop Dogg, Alec Baldwin, Ke$ha, Casanova, Mick Jagger, Jack Nicholson, Cleopatra "Jaime Lannister" (Game of Thrones), “Arya Stark” (Game of Thrones) "The Comedian" (Watchmen), "Scarlett O'Hara" (Gone with the Wind), “Phil” (The Hangover), “Doc Holliday” (Tombstone), “Robert Baratheon” (Game of Thrones), “Tony Stark” (Ironman)

8 with a 7 wing: "The Conqueror"
Napoleon Bonaparte, Donald Trump, Andrew Jackson, Jillian Michaels, Simon Cowell, Charles Manson, Theodore Roosevelt, Rasputin, Frank Sinatra, "Khal Drogo" (Game of Thrones), "Cruella de Vil" (101 Dalmatians), "Rhett Butler" (Gone with the Wind), “The Grinch”, “Beatrix Kiddo” (Kill Bill), “Achilles” (The Iliad), “Gordon Gekko” (Wall Street), “Mewtwo” (Pokemon)

8 with a 9 wing: "The Giant"
Jesse Ventura, Russell Crowe, Johnny Cash, John Wayne, Glen Close, Winston Churchill, Robert de Niro, Bing Crosby, Henry Kissinger, Clint Eastwood, Paul Newman "Tywin Lannister" (Game of Thrones), "Darth Vader" (Star Wars), “Bane” (Batman), “Bill” (Kill Bill), “ Saruman” (Lord of the Rings), “Howard Roark” (The Fountainhead), “K” (Men in Black)

Works Consulted:
1) The Wisdom of the Enneagram (Don Riso and Russ Hudson)
2) Character and Neuroses (Claudio Naranjo)
3) The Spiritual Dimension of the Enneagram (Sandra Maitri)

 

[Entropic]

This is well-written and for most of the part I agree. The domination-aspect of type 8 could perhaps be toned down a bit though, as I think another equally important aspect of type 8 is their sense of vulnerability in relation to innocence. 8s are tough because they have to be, because they lost the belief in innocence within themselves. They are tough because they think they have to be, or others will exploit their weaknesses and exploitation hurts. It's easy to think that 8s dominate for fun but it's not quite so - 8s seek power because it is a necessity in order to survive, because they think the world is so fucked that the only way they can survive is to become fucked too, pretty much.