your mental illness is NOT an excuse to be an asshole

[Lark]

I figured this was the root of all the hostility. A good way to not have a conversation with people you don't like: don't reply to them and talk to them. I'll bow out here.

You're not alone in getting that response, its sort of curious that anyone would come to a discussion forum and post that to almost everyone who chooses to interact with them.

I've seen it on other forums too though, I wonder if its an online behaviour thing, like there is an illusionary gallery which people imagine they are interacting with of lurkers and others besides the members who're posting. Its not restricted to this poster but they're just good at it right now.

 

[Lark]

It was VERY obvious as they made no sense and jumped to conclusions in an accusatory manner. Gotta love irrationality, NOT. I am out of here also we are gonna base conversations and discussions on likes vs dislikes of people...

irrationality propogates stupidity for the sake of selfishness.

I'd agree that it appears obvious and irrational but there's a method in the madness too which is interesting to study or at least observe, I tend to read posters like that as imagining they are engaging in a kind of contest when they do so, posting isnt about discussion or learning something or exchanging something with someone else but about "winning", its also something that I remember from adolescent interactions quite a bit, maybe they are adolescents or just stranded at that developmental stage?

What I do know is that people who're like that in person have a hell of a time when most of the people they interact with on a regular basis are free to just leave them to it and not bother with them any longer, its not surprising to see them showing up online, though they dont usually decide to amend their behaviour on the back of any of the online interaction either.

 

[Lark]

Work with (or around) the cards you've been dealt, I guess?

Shitty hands can be and are doled out in droves. And not all of them involve mental illness. There are 12 different ways to draw up a 7-2 combo, you know?

That I'd agree with and I've got to say that I believe that with the proper insights, which mental illness can make it difficult to come by for different reasons, the traits people with some sort of diagnosis have could be just like any other traits, ie being tall, being short, being stout, being skinny, having one shade of eye or hair colour or another, one sort of metabolic rate or another.

The best explanation of mental illness (also anti-social behaviour but they are very different things without necessarily an overlap) I ever heard of was that it was a combination of recessive genes and environment, although what makes genes or environment recessive? Some contexts it could be an advantage, others it wouldnt be, you get into questions of natural selection and evolutionary utility and all after a point and I dont really mean to go there.

Good points in the discussion though.

 

[magpie]

I'd agree that it appears obvious and irrational but there's a method in the madness too which is interesting to study or at least observe, I tend to read posters like that as imagining they are engaging in a kind of contest when they do so, posting isnt about discussion or learning something or exchanging something with someone else but about "winning", its also something that I remember from adolescent interactions quite a bit, maybe they are adolescents or just stranded at that developmental stage?

What I do know is that people who're like that in person have a hell of a time when most of the people they interact with on a regular basis are free to just leave them to it and not bother with them any longer, its not surprising to see them showing up online, though they dont usually decide to amend their behaviour on the back of any of the online interaction either.

I'm not engaging in a contest. I'm not trying to win. I am actually trying to communicate. It is rough because it does not seem to be actually happening no matter how many times I repeat myself, which has been a lot. I am actually trying to say something. I could try to explain again but I suspect it would just anger people more.

 

[magpie]

Reason being, if a psychiatrist gives a diagnoses, no amount of denying from the patient receiving it makes it not true, or go away. It's no different than someone saying "you have cancer" then the patient denying that. It doesn't make it untrue no matter how much they believe it. So, someone being told they have Bipolar disorder, and saying "no I don't", unless they have legimate delusions... they are just denying fact. I can't, and won't forgive someone like that if it results in bad behavior since they would be denying a blunt fact. I can understand someone losing it in the moment, in particular if memory loss is associated with it, but I would still have a very hard time dealing with their behavior, and would be extremely unlikely to associate with them in the first place.

But what if they actually don't have bipolar disorder? What if the psychiatrist is wrong? Do you think that a psychiatrist can ever be wrong? A doctor doesn't say "you have cancer" until after the tests results come back positive for cancer. They might say "you have cancer" beforehand, but there is a chance the test results will come back negative, which means the patient is suffering from something else.

If a psychiatrist says "you have bipolar" and the patient doesn't have bipolar, the patient isn't delusional for not believing the doctor, the patient is right. So how do we know who's right? Who do we believe? And why?

 

[Jaguar]

But what if they actually don't have bipolar disorder? What if the psychiatrist is wrong? Do you think that a psychiatrist can ever be wrong? A doctor doesn't say "you have cancer" until after the tests results come back positive for cancer. They might say "you have cancer" beforehand, but there is a chance the test results will come back negative, which means the patient is suffering from something else.

If a psychiatrist says "you have bipolar" and the patient doesn't have bipolar, the patient isn't delusional for not believing the doctor, the patient is right. So how do we know who's right? Who do we believe? And why?

Agreed. A diagnosis of X does not mean it's true. Been there. Lived that. Conversely, just because you're told you do not have X, does not mean it's true. Been there. Lived that. I think it might take a certain degree of suffering to wake people up, regarding doctors. The majority of doctors I have met couldn't diagnose their way out of a paper bag. I recently spoke with a lawyer who told me about a case where the patient sued a large hospital for missing a cancer diagnosis and obviously, preventing the patient from taking early action. The patient won.

My mother was told she had cancer when she was in her 20's or 30's and they were wrong. Scared the living shit out of her for nothing and even asked her if they could cut off her arm, if need be. In the end, what they were looking at was not cancer at all. Idiots.

The lesson: Do your homework. Think critically. It's your life and you're the one who has to suffer the consequences when a doctor is wrong.

 

[Tilt]

But what if they actually don't have bipolar disorder? What if the psychiatrist is wrong? Do you think that a psychiatrist can ever be wrong? A doctor doesn't say "you have cancer" until after the tests results come back positive for cancer. They might say "you have cancer" beforehand, but there is a chance the test results will come back negative, which means the patient is suffering from something else.

If a psychiatrist says "you have bipolar" and the patient doesn't have bipolar, the patient isn't delusional for not believing the doctor, the patient is right. So how do we know who's right? Who do we believe? And why?

Agreed. A diagnosis of X does not mean it's true. Been there. Lived that. Conversely, just because you're told you do not have X, does not mean it's true. Been there. Lived that. I think it might take a certain degree of suffering to wake people up, regarding doctors. The majority of doctors I have met couldn't diagnose their way out of a paper bag. I recently spoke with a lawyer who told me about a case where the patient sued a large hospital for missing a cancer diagnosis and obviously, preventing the patient from taking early action. The patient won.

My mother was told she had cancer when she was in her 20's or 30's and they were wrong. Scared the living shit out of her for nothing and even asked her if they could cut off her arm, if need be. In the end, what they were looking at was not cancer at all. Idiots.

The lesson: Do your homework. Think critically. It's your life and you're the one who has to suffer the consequences when a doctor is wrong.

Two words: differential diagnosis. That's the one skill that separates the good from the bad and it is why getting several opinions is usually a wise thing to do.

 

[Lark]

Two words: differential diagnosis. That's the one skill that separates the good from the bad and it is why getting several opinions is usually a wise thing to do.

Exactly.

I've heard about cases in which bipolar diagnosis has been discovered to be type 2 diabetes during differential diagnosis, the highs and lows of blood sugar and attendant behaviour, mood swings etc. are mistaken for the bi-polar depressive lows and euphoric highs but only in pretty cursory analysis and diagnosis, they are pretty unmistakeably different conditions, although its possible to be suffering from both I guess.

Something I would say about anti-psychiatry or anti-psychological diagnosis thinking though is that a lot of what is prescriptive in most psychological therapies, in my experience, besides perhaps the whole area of psycho-pharmacology which is frankly outside of my experience, is good advice.

If you are not suffering from a psychological disorder and learn better skills for life and stress/crisis management through CBT, learn greater reflectiveness from depth psychology or analysis, learn more constructive reasoning and self-regulation of affect and emotion then what harm could it possibly do?

Given the proviso that there is not another undiagnosed malady, ie the example of diabetes contra bipolar, I dont see there being an especially serious problem here.

 

[Cellmold]

You're not alone in getting that response, its sort of curious that anyone would come to a discussion forum and post that to almost everyone who chooses to interact with them.

I've seen it on other forums too though, I wonder if its an online behaviour thing, like there is an illusionary gallery which people imagine they are interacting with of lurkers and others besides the members who're posting. Its not restricted to this poster but they're just good at it right now.

Hey it's good for venting right?

But it's getting harder to figure out the hidden agenda's behind the actual vents.

 

[prplchknz]

Work with (or around) the cards you've been dealt, I guess?

Shitty hands can be and are doled out in droves. And not all of them involve mental illness. There are 12 different ways to draw up a 7-2 combo, you know?

as a non card playing and only gambling i've ever done was with gold fish while playing uno i'm guessing that's not a good hand

 

[Bush]

as a non card playing and only gambling i've ever done was with gold fish while playing uno i'm guessing that's not a good hand

Dealt nothing and bluffing hard
Playing poker with a joker and some Uno cards

-- Bloodhound Gang, Magna Cum Nada​

 

[prplchknz]

Dealt nothing and bluffing hard
Playing poker with a joker and some Uno cards

-- Bloodhound Gang, Magna Cum Nada​

sounds like my kind of poker. though i don't think i'd be a good bluffer, actually maybe i would i tend to stay quiet and let people go their own way and then they yell at me for making them believe something, but i said nothing i did not influence them in any way, actually i'm more likely to be yelled at for not saying something, but i often do they just didn't listen and i'm done with the human race, you all can keep them thank you very much

 

[GIjade]

So please, don't use your mental illness as an excuse to treat others as a jerk because there are a lot of members on here who manage to behave in a perfectly non-asshole manner despite also having problems, and every time you do that, you're adding one more chip to the negative stereotypes pile

Well, I guess then, you could also say, don't use your cancer diagnosis and all that goes with it, as an excuse to treat others poorly.

 

[miss fortune]

Well, I guess then, you could also say, don't use your cancer diagnosis and all that goes with it, as an excuse to treat others poorly.

it's not an excuse for acting like a shitty person either

 

[Kullervo]

I am going to be a contrarian here:

Sometimes it really helps people to understand why something they're distressed by is happening. That knowledge can give you more insight into the other person's situation. It adds nuances and prevents hostility that isn't warranted. Intent is very important; the most extreme example being insanity pleas in a criminal case, but the principle can be reduced down to petty conflict. Understanding someone doesn't mean you have to agree with them let alone like them. For example I disagree with a lot of people here ideologically, yet there are only four or five who I strongly dislike, personally (and they know who they are).

Shaming other people for their issues in a passive-aggressive way will only fester discontent and suspicion (i.e. "Is he/she talking about me? What are people saying? Am I being judged?"). You don't like what someone is doing? Talk to them about what upsets you, ideally without making a dick of yourself by spewing insults everywhere.

 

[GIjade]

it's not an excuse for acting like a shitty person either

same thing.

 

[miss fortune]

same thing.

as a crazy person myself, I'm not really judging from the outside here

 

[GIjade]

Understanding someone doesn't mean you have to agree with them let alone like them.

I agree. Understanding someone is really taking your emotions out of a situation and seeing/feeling what the other person might be feeling. It definitely doesn't mean you have to agree with them, or like them, but you can try to understand them.

Shaming other people for their issues in a passive-aggressive way will only fester discontent and suspicion (i.e. "Is he/she talking about me? What are people saying? Am I being judged?"). You don't like what someone is doing? Talk to them about what upsets you, ideally without making a dick of yourself by spewing insults everywhere.

Are you talking about me? That was passive aggressive.

 

[Kullervo]

I agree. Understanding someone is really taking your emotions out of a situation and seeing/feeling what the other person might be feeling. It definitely doesn't mean you have to agree with them, or like them, but you can try to understand them.

Easy to say, but hard to do.

Are you talking about me? That was passive aggressive.

Yes, I know it was (I did that on purpose to turn it around for size) but no, I wasn't addressing you.

 

[GIjade]

Well, I guess then, you could also say, don't use your cancer diagnosis and all that goes with it, as an excuse to treat others poorly.

To reply to my own post, the reason I wrote this is because some people don't consider a mental illness to be just as valid and "real" as a physical illness. I know someone with cancer and I realized through the experience of our interactions, that really, anyone who is sick could be considered selfish if you don't understand where they're coming from. Sometimes ill people are thinking of themselves instead of others which can make them seem like jerks. But, as with the understanding posts above, when you can understand someone from their POV, ie, they are feeling sick and scared or whatever, and don't have the capacity to consider other's feelings as much as they normally would, you can let it go more easily. Understanding someone that way takes away the "jerk" factor and brings in the compassion so the situation can be dealt with better.