your mental illness is NOT an excuse to be an asshole

[prplchknz]

To be honest I don't know what you're referring to and I wasn't even talking about you.

If you're talking about histrionic personality disorder and not histrionic the adjective then I'm confused as to why everyone keeps referring to hpd as a fake mental illness while also simultaneously diagnosing these people with a mental illness and I feel really bad for the people who've been diagnosed with it because they're in a no win situation where their feelings are simultaneously pathologized and treated as unimportant while also experiencing tons of stigma from all directions.

no i knew a histronic who faked psychosis for attention. no one has refered to it as fake

 

[magpie]

no i knew a histronic who faked psychosis for attention. no one has refered to it as fake

So you're saying you knew someone with a mental illness that is characterized by attention seeking behaviour who sought attention. Am I missing something?

 

[miss fortune]

of course the OP is also wandering around on the forum, so if anyone really wanted to know what she'd typed that about they totally could have asked her

as a note, I did go several years without taking meds and just using the things I'd learned through behavioral therapy to keep things under control... I had the luck of being in a very mild phase of things and I never did like how the drugs made me feel. Also didn't have insurance at the time so I was really lucky that things went as well as they did. I functioned decently well, not perfectly by any means, but well enough to get by and not get into any really bad sort of trouble. I remained aware of myself and kept monitoring my moods and behavior throughout that time and took responsibility for myself whenever I didn't manage to control myself and apologized as a person instead of using my problems as an excuse because not being medicated was my decision and I could tell if I was a bit off because of feedback from others.

I am in therapy and on medications again, after things changed and it seemed necessary to do so and it's kind of tough to realize that you can't really control some things on your own.

I think that if someone knows that they do have problems that affects others they should take steps to minimize it's effects upon others, whether by attending therapy, taking medication or just owning up to the fact that you were an asshole and that you're sorry that you were instead of just brushing it off with an excuse. If you're so out of touch that you don't realize that you are causing problems you should probably extra be getting some help

sorry for not exactly going into specifics here... some of you do know what I'm talking about, but I am not completely sure that if I revealed everything on here that someone would not feel that it was appropriate to use against me in the future. perceptions about mental problems exist here as well as in the real world no matter whether you are being treated for your problems or not... I'm self aware enough to avoid taking any actions if I feel a little off, so I hope that assuages some doubts

 

[magpie]

[MENTION=1180]whatever[/MENTION]

I haven't asked you to clarify because I feel like after some initial confusion I understood what you were saying and I don't take issue with it. But we are treading a slippery slope here with people coming into this thread and saying things you haven't actually said by extrapolating from your initial point and trying to classify some behaviours as legitimate and "okay" mental illness behaviours and some as fake and "bad" mental illness behaviours. From my point of view, either we condemn all shitty behaviour or none of it. You don't need to justify yourself, I don't care. I'm not the one making these claims.

Also, I think that in today's society taking responsibility for one's actions and mental illness might be a confusing intersection. I know this is the type of conversation people don't like to have but think about it. People are assholes and then blame their actions on a mental illness they don't have. That's one side of the story. Or is it more like this? Someone is an asshole and does something shitty and everyone including the president rushes to give them a mental illness to justify their behaviour. It isn't really an individual problem, it's a societal one. So focusing it down onto individuals and saying this wouldn't be a problem if people didn't fake illnesses isn't really true, because we've been taught to associate shitty behaviour with mental illness. And I know we talked about this, but we're approaching it from opposite ends of the spectrum. I don't see it as an individual issue. If it's entrenched in society then of course people are going to use it as a scapegoat for their actions. So maybe we should stop diagnosing everyone and their mother with mental illnesses. I know this is radical, but maybe we should teach people how to self determine and "self diagnose". As in, recognize what is going on inside themselves, their thoughts and feelings and emotions, so they don't have to appeal to professionals for help who are more concerned with whether or not they qualify as "real" or are "faking," and will only dole out help if it's deserved.

 

[á´…eparted]

I did go several years without taking meds and just using the things I'd learned through behavioral therapy to keep things under control...

That's what I'm doing!

I really shouldn't, but if it's working it's working!

Also meds would block some illicit substences I plan to play with from working and that takes priority

 

[miss fortune]

[MENTION=1180]whatever[/MENTION]

I haven't asked you to clarify because I feel like after some initial confusion I understood what you were saying and I don't take issue with it. But we are treading a slippery slope here with people coming into this thread and saying things you haven't actually said by extrapolating from your initial point and trying to classify some behaviours as legitimate and "okay" mental illness behaviours and some as fake and "bad" mental illness behaviours. From my point of view, either we condemn all shitty behaviour or none of it. You don't need to justify yourself, I don't care. I'm not the one making these claims.

Also, I think that in today's society taking responsibility for one's actions and mental illness might be a confusing intersection. I know this is the type of conversation people don't like to have but think about it. People are assholes and then blame their actions on a mental illness they don't have. That's one side of the story. Or is it more like this? Someone is an asshole and does something shitty and everyone including the president rushes to give them a mental illness to justify their behaviour. It isn't really an individual problem, it's a societal one. So focusing it down onto individuals and saying this wouldn't be a problem if people didn't fake illnesses isn't really true, because we've been taught to associate shitty behaviour with mental illness. And I know we talked about this, but we're approaching it from opposite ends of the spectrum. I don't see it as an individual issue. If it's entrenched in society then of course people are going to use it as a scapegoat for their actions. So maybe we should stop diagnosing everyone and their mother with mental illnesses. I know this is radical, but maybe we should teach people how to self determine and "self diagnose". As in, recognize what is going on inside themselves, their thoughts and feelings and emotions, so they don't have to appeal to professionals for help who are more concerned with whether or not they qualify as "real" or are "faking," and will only dole out help if it's deserved.

Some people DO need the help of professionals and medicines in order to function though and just reflecting on one's own feelings and realizing when something is wrong won't always make things right, or even make them work. Believe me, I've tried... I've tried pretty much everything that doesn't involve taking drugs because the ones I was on in the past were awful as far as side effects went and I didn't want that again. I also don't want to fuck up my life and relationships and keep an amazingly increased chance of offing myself either and that, in combination with other factors, is why I went back on drugs.

and there are the people out there who will make comments like "oh, I like to make sure that my desk is kind of neat... I'm so OCD!" or "I'm being moody... I must be bipolar" and things along those lines... comments that not only illustrate the fact that only they have decided this, but also that they don't even have a strong grasp as to what different mental disorders entail. not everyone really understands much about psychology aside from what they see on movies or on tv, and I think that we can agree that portrayals on either of those are not particularly accurate. This doesn't stop people from claiming to suffer from these disorders when it is convenient for them to do so, and by making excuses along those lines they are dragging down the perception of people who genuinely DO have those problems in the process. Just like the tv and movies do... the perceptions just reinforce the perceptions without anyone really becoming educated on the issues and that DOES annoy me

and [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] ... it was fun while it lasted

 

[magpie]

Some people DO need the help of professionals and medicines in order to function though and just reflecting on one's own feelings and realizing when something is wrong won't always make things right, or even make them work. Believe me, I've tried... I've tried pretty much everything that doesn't involve taking drugs because the ones I was on in the past were awful as far as side effects went and I didn't want that again. I also don't want to fuck up my life and relationships and keep an amazingly increased chance of offing myself either and that, in combination with other factors, is why I went back on drugs.

I agree that people who want help from professionals should get it. But how will they know they need to get it if they can't reflect enough to realize it? I don't think people should be forced to work things out on their own or that help, when wanted, should not be given. There's nothing wrong with getting help, that's not what I'm saying. I'm also not saying that it doesn't work for people. There has been a lot going on in this thread (that hasn't been said by you) with people saying that people with real mental illnesses seek help and you can tell when people are faking because they don't seek help. Or that if someone is not seeking help for from professionals for their mental illness it means that they're not taking responsibility for themselves and their actions and don't care about the effects of their actions on others and are just assholes. I am just trying to tell people that that's wrong. I'm not trying to go in the other direction and tell people not to seek help. I'm just trying to point out that it's okay not to seek help. Not seeking help doesn't make you an asshole and people in this thread who would say that not seeking help for a mental illness is destructive to those around you are being manipulative and shitty and not very helpful at all.

and there are the people out there who will make comments like "oh, I like to make sure that my desk is kind of neat... I'm so OCD!" or "I'm being moody... I must be bipolar" and things along those lines... comments that not only illustrate the fact that only they have decided this, but also that they don't even have a strong grasp as to what different mental disorders entail. not everyone really understands much about psychology aside from what they see on movies or on tv, and I think that we can agree that portrayals on either of those are not particularly accurate. This doesn't stop people from claiming to suffer from these disorders when it is convenient for them to do so, and by making excuses along those lines they are dragging down the perception of people who genuinely DO have those problems in the process. Just like the tv and movies do... the perceptions just reinforce the perceptions without anyone really becoming educated on the issues and that DOES annoy me

I agree that people shouldn't be doing that. But making your desk kind of neat is not being an asshole. It's shitty to associate that with OCD nonetheless, because then people don't realize how serious OCD is. But yeah, people should take mental illness more seriously and not use it as a descriptor for behaviour that they find quirky or don't like in themselves.

I don't know how many times I can say it. I agree with you. This thread quickly snowballed into deciding what people with PTSD do and do not want to do (as a classifier to decide whether or not they really have PTSD. Guess I don't have it then.) Of talking about the huge number of people with mental illnesses who are assholes without even realizing it. Of patting oneself and eachother on the back for not being that kind of mentally ill person. Of talking about dealing with "faked attacks and melodrama" and giving people "stricter parameters" because they're so good at faking. And a good sign of fakers = people who won't get treatment. And having to classify which mental illnesses are more severe because people with more severe mental illnesses apparently have more of a reason to be assholes, which is different than having an excuse.

The above paragraph isn't my line of thinking, it's what I've gathered from other people in this thread. And it's gross.

 

[kyuuei]

The OP of this thread may only be talking about people blaming behaviour on mental illnesses that can't actually be attributed to mental illnesses and people faking mental illnesses as justification for behaviour, but it becomes more complex than that and this thread was obviously going to go in a more complex direction because no one can tell who is or isn't faking a mental illness. There are no patterns and clues in behaviour to indicate when someone is faking. The moment people in this thread started using the OP to talk about how to spot a faker by using their own experiences with mental illness and saying if people don't act exactly like me, then they're using their mental illness to justify their behaviour, things got out of hand.

I think we'll have to disagree there. The OP was not initiating a discussion on the merit of whether you can tell if someone is faking or not, or whether it's real or not.. This is talking about something established already. People clearly had their own agendas on what they wanted to discuss, and to you maybe it seems natural that the discussion would grow towards something complex, but I do not think that's what the OP had in mind--at least not in regards of rights of mental illness patients, whether they're faking or not, if faking is a mental illness in and of itself, etc. etc. These are all really just off topic posts about an OP with a similar theme (mental illness).

And I will also disagree on whether there are patterns for people faking it or not. It is patterns that we use to analyze behavior to determine things in all areas of life, and human behavior even for mental patients is no exception. I'm fairly sure I made my 'it doesn't always apply to everyone' caveats painfully clear in both my choice of words (typically, generally, mostly) and in direct disclaimers themselves. But that doesn't mean patterns are useless or that they don't give information. Patterns are part of what we use to determine a lot of mental illnesses and differentiate them from 'normal' people behavior. The patterns of society vs the patterns of this person's life, and people in similar life circumstances. So, yeah, it is a pattern that people who straight up refuse treatment can be faking it.. in my examples, the people who blame PTSD on their asshole behavior traits that existed prior to it will prooobbably not be willing to treat their PTSD. I feel I made it pretty obvious this does not mean I'm saying all people who don't get treatment are fakers. Patterns are not absolutes, but they are important indicators.

 

[miss fortune]

I agree that people who want help from professionals should get it. But how will they know they need to get it if they can't reflect enough to realize it? I don't think people should be forced to work things out on their own or that help, when wanted, should not be given. There's nothing wrong with getting help, that's not what I'm saying. I'm also not saying that it doesn't work for people. There has been a lot going on in this thread (that hasn't been said by you) with people saying that people with real mental illnesses seek help and you can tell when people are faking because they don't seek help. Or that if someone is not seeking help for from professionals for their mental illness it means that they're not taking responsibility for themselves and their actions and don't care about the effects of their actions on others and are just assholes. I am just trying to tell people that that's wrong. I'm not trying to go in the other direction and tell people not to seek help. I'm just trying to point out that it's okay not to seek help. Not seeking help doesn't make you an asshole and people in this thread who would say that not seeking help for a mental illness is destructive to those around you are being manipulative and shitty and not very helpful at all.

see... that's a difference we have in opinion there... I personally think that if you are causing a lot of problems for others and society at large because you refuse to address your issues and you have an opportunity to do so (and there are a lot of opportunities out there) that you aren't taking responsibility for yourself and your actions. it's like driving when you're drunk... you know that you're a danger to everyone else if you take that sort of risk and just because you manage to get away with it a few times without getting caught or hurting someone doesn't mean that it's not an asshole move and that you still weren't a danger... it certainly doesn't mean that you should continue to do so just because nothing has happened so far. as long as you aren't a danger and you're not a problem for everyone it's fine to go your own way, but once you've crossed over that line and made it a problem for everyone else you're being pretty selfish if you don't care about it

when I realized that I was in danger of slipping into the territory of becoming a problem I addressed that because my personal issues shouldn't be forced upon others... do I feel that it's particularly fair that I have to deal with them? No... so why would it be fair to make others deal with them?

I agree that people shouldn't be doing that. But making your desk kind of neat is not being an asshole. It's shitty to associate that with OCD nonetheless, because then people don't realize how serious OCD is. But yeah, people should take mental illness more seriously and not use it as a descriptor for behaviour that they find quirky or don't like in themselves.

I don't know how many times I can say it. I agree with you. This thread quickly snowballed into deciding what people with PTSD do and do not want to do (as a classifier to decide whether or not they really have PTSD. Guess I don't have it then.) Of talking about the huge number of people with mental illnesses who are assholes without even realizing it. Of patting oneself and eachother on the back for not being that kind of mentally ill person. Of talking about dealing with "faked attacks and melodrama" and giving people "stricter parameters" because they're so good at faking. And a good sign of fakers = people who won't get treatment. And having to classify which mental illnesses are more severe because people with more severe mental illnesses apparently have more of a reason to be assholes, which is different than having an excuse.

The above paragraph isn't my line of thinking, it's what I've gathered from other people in this thread. And it's gross.

and I didn't say that keeping a neat desk was an asshole move... I was simply addressing the mention of people making false claims as to mental illness. Don't just claim something because you saw it on a movie or something because that's pretty dismissive and insulting and it makes light of things.

 

[magpie]

I think we'll have to disagree there. The OP was not initiating a discussion on the merit of whether you can tell if someone is faking or not, or whether it's real or not..

I don't know why you're disagreeing. I was obviously also saying the OP was not initiating a discussion on whether you can tell if someone is faking or not.

This is talking about something established already. People clearly had their own agendas on what they wanted to discuss, and to you maybe it seems natural that the discussion would grow towards something complex, but I do not think that's what the OP had in mind--at least not in regards of rights of mental illness patients, whether they're faking or not, if faking is a mental illness in and of itself, etc. etc. These are all really just off topic posts about an OP with a similar theme (mental illness).

I was never talking about whether faking was a mental illness in and of itself. You're the one who said people who fake a mental illness have histrionic personality disorder. If you can't see how that's ironic I just can't help you. Also, I don't think the topic of conversation is off topic. If it is, a mod can move these posts to off topic, but they will also have to move every single post trying to classify whether x behaviour is a legit symptom of a mental illness or just assholeness and posts complaining about shitty family members with real mental illnesses and no self awareness, because those aren't exactly on topic either.

And I will also disagree on whether there are patterns for people faking it or not.

I know you do. You've made that clear.

It is patterns that we use to analyze behavior to determine things in all areas of life, and human behavior even for mental patients is no exception.

What a sentence. Even for mental patients. Well I'm glad. Thanks.

I'm fairly sure I made my 'it doesn't always apply to everyone' caveats painfully clear in both my choice of words (typically, generally, mostly) and in direct disclaimers themselves. But that doesn't mean patterns are useless or that they don't give information. Patterns are part of what we use to determine a lot of mental illnesses and differentiate them from 'normal' people behavior.

I don't care what you do. Please don't converse with me. I wasn't talking with you. I really dislike you.

The patterns of society vs the patterns of this person's life, and people in similar life circumstances. So, yeah, it is a pattern that people who straight up refuse treatment can be faking it..

This makes no sense at all. Because they refuse treatment, they are faking a pattern?

in my examples, the people who blame PTSD on their asshole behavior traits that existed prior to it will prooobbably not be willing to treat their PTSD. I feel I made it pretty obvious this does not mean I'm saying all people who don't get treatment are fakers. Patterns are not absolutes, but they are important indicators.

You also said:

Most people with PTSD do not want to talk about it, or let other people know there's something wrong with them. They want to feel normal.

Honestly, it is on people without mental illnesses to do research and figure out faking vs real attacks.. but a good sign of fakers are people who won't go get treatment. (Not always.. I've seen attention-seeking behavior where treatment makes it real for others and so they get more attention and get addicted to using up free resources and attention and days off of work. It's more rare, but it happens.) Fakers tend to feed off of the energy they get from the issue they're creating.. it doesn't feel negative to them. People who think you're faking or exaggerating when you've got something real going on aren't good people to be around during those times.

and everyone else as I get to know them I look for traits that should either garner increased empathy or decreased empathy.

 

[magpie]

see... that's a difference we have in opinion there... I personally think that if you are causing a lot of problems for others and society at large because you refuse to address your issues and you have an opportunity to do so (and there are a lot of opportunities out there) that you aren't taking responsibility for yourself and your actions. it's like driving when you're drunk... you know that you're a danger to everyone else if you take that sort of risk and just because you manage to get away with it a few times without getting caught or hurting someone doesn't mean that it's not an asshole move and that you still weren't a danger... it certainly doesn't mean that you should continue to do so just because nothing has happened so far. as long as you aren't a danger and you're not a problem for everyone it's fine to go your own way, but once you've crossed over that line and made it a problem for everyone else you're being pretty selfish if you don't care about it

when I realized that I was in danger of slipping into the territory of becoming a problem I addressed that because my personal issues shouldn't be forced upon others... do I feel that it's particularly fair that I have to deal with them? No... so why would it be fair to make others deal with them?

That is your choice. See how I'm allowing you a thing called a choice and not forcing my moral judgements onto you? But because you also have a right to an opinion, even an opinion that infringes on others, I'm just going to leave it here. It's okay. We can disagree. It doesn't make me a bad person. It doesn't make you a bad person.

Also, I don't want to hate myself. I don't want to consider myself a problem for everyone or society at large. I can take responsibility for myself without thinking that I am a huge problem and harbouring tons of guilt and internalizing all of the stigma that's being thrown at me.

and I didn't say that keeping a neat desk was an asshole move... I was simply addressing the mention of people making false claims as to mental illness. Don't just claim something because you saw it on a movie or something because that's pretty dismissive and insulting and it makes light of things.

This is cool. I agree with this.

 

[á´…eparted]

I personally think that if you are causing a lot of problems for others and society at large because you refuse to address your issues and you have an opportunity to do so (and there are a lot of opportunities out there) that you aren't taking responsibility for yourself and your actions.

This. It sums everything up that many of us are trying to get at.

 

[magpie]

see... that's a difference we have in opinion there... I personally think that if you are causing a lot of problems for others and society at large because you refuse to address your issues and you have an opportunity to do so (and there are a lot of opportunities out there) that you aren't taking responsibility for yourself and your actions. it's like driving when you're drunk... you know that you're a danger to everyone else if you take that sort of risk and just because you manage to get away with it a few times without getting caught or hurting someone doesn't mean that it's not an asshole move and that you still weren't a danger... it certainly doesn't mean that you should continue to do so just because nothing has happened so far. as long as you aren't a danger and you're not a problem for everyone it's fine to go your own way, but once you've crossed over that line and made it a problem for everyone else you're being pretty selfish if you don't care about it

when I realized that I was in danger of slipping into the territory of becoming a problem I addressed that because my personal issues shouldn't be forced upon others... do I feel that it's particularly fair that I have to deal with them? No... so why would it be fair to make others deal with them?

Okay, okay, I know I was going to drop it but I have more questions.

Why do you think people with mental illnesses are inherently causing a lot of problems for others and society at large? Why are you comparing having a mental illness to driving drunk? Do you really feel like having a mental illness makes you likely to kill someone? Why do you think having a mental illness makes you a danger to everyone around you?

Have you considered that you're the one propagating the stigma and not the people on TV or the people who say "my desk is messy, I have OCD?"

 

[kyuuei]

I don't care what you do. Please don't converse with me. I wasn't talking with you. I really dislike you.

I figured this was the root of all the hostility. A good way to not have a conversation with people you don't like: don't reply to them and talk to them. I'll bow out here.

 

[Poki]

I figured this was the root of all the hostility. A good way to not have a conversation with people you don't like: don't reply to them and talk to them. I'll bow out here.

It was VERY obvious as they made no sense and jumped to conclusions in an accusatory manner. Gotta love irrationality, NOT. I am out of here also we are gonna base conversations and discussions on likes vs dislikes of people...

irrationality propogates stupidity for the sake of selfishness.

 

[great_bay]

lol, this is like reading the youtube comment section but a soft version of it.

 

[/DG/]

Hot damn this thread is getting long.

This might have been mentioned already, but one thing I'd like to say is that when people are acting like assholes (whether they're ill or not), they don't usually know that they are.

Yeah, I think that this is a major player in this.

When my mom left my dad, my dad kept asking "why" for a period of several weeks (to maybe even a couple of months?). At first, I would honestly explain it to him. You were an asshole. You were mean. You should never do that to another human being. I would go into the specifics and flat out explain it to him because he seemed so confused. Each time, he almost seemed to understand....but then he would counteract with statements such as "X and Y people from work say I am a nice guy. Z therapist thinks I am nice."

He just legitimately could not understand what I was talking about because of certain other external forces telling him that he is a nice person. Eventually I gave up explaining it to him and he thankfully gave up asking.

 

[/DG/]

Also, may as well post this here...sorry for being an asshole to you guys all the time. AFAIK, I don't seem to have any disorders diagnoseable in the DSM (though I may act irrationally on the forums). So the OP isn't necessarily limited to people that mention a mental illness as an excuse, but rather, people that use anything as an excuse to be an asshole.

 

[/DG/]

@<a href="http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/members/1180.html" target="_blank">whatever</a>
I may not be in a position to say this. But what about those with Tourette's? Have you been under it? I dare say trying just what you said there with a person of that issue. Do you think it's controllable? They can say sorry forever. But would you show them no mercy?

Tourette's is not a disorder where someone screams obscenities. That is RARE manifestation of it that is perpetuated by the media. People with Tourrette's have a bunch of complex motor tics, which can often manifest as eye blinking, throat clearing, weird facial movements, etc. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourette_syndrome

But I mean if they DO say obscenities and subsequently apologize and everyone moves on than it's nbd.

This prominent guy on YouTube is an example of someone with Tourrette's.

He's being goofy for the camera, but notice how he isn't yelling obscenities at everyone.

 

[Bush]

Work with (or around) the cards you've been dealt, I guess?

Shitty hands can be and are doled out in droves. And not all of them involve mental illness. There are 12 different ways to draw up a 7-2 combo, you know?