What is the hardest thing about being a woman?

[Lark]

On this thread: not being able to ban male responses thus making it readable.

I posted a question out of interest, although if it was one of my posts that you've got the issue with I'd be happy to delete it.

 

[ceecee]

On this thread: not being able to ban male responses thus making it readable.

I don't mind that males answer - many of them here have input I'd like to hear. But the male response in this thread are from males that generally have a track record of shit opinions/replies on the subject and/or dissolving into arguments on power.

 

[digesthisickness]

I don't mind that males answer - many of them here have input I'd like to hear. But the male response in this thread are from males that generally have a track record of shit opinions/replies on the subject and/or dissolving into arguments on power.

"Answering" would be obnoxious. Responses, questions, etc. sound nice if done genuinely, I agree. I was indeed responding to the quality of posts on this particular thread for the very reason you stated

- - - Updated - - -

I posted a question out of interest, although if it was one of my posts that you've got the issue with I'd be happy to delete it.

GOD NO NOT YOU. Not you at all

 

[Luminous]

Some people want a more egalitarian partnership, not a relationship with overt power dynamics.

No they don't. Some have been programmed to think they do, though. Also, it is very seldom overt except in conversations like this.

What is that? I've heard it said before but dismissed it as the latest ideological verbiage of a scene I want no part of, although given here's a chance to be more informed I'll ask what it means.

So I said Mansplaining somewhat tongue-in-cheek (it is not one of the most difficult things I find about being a woman, though it is annoying. And I don't think it's totally what anticlimatic was doing as some men want egalitarian partnerships too-that is not purely the domain of women.) But here's a good definition:

When a man “mansplains” something to a woman, he interrupts or speaks over her to explain something that she already knows — indeed, something in which she may already be an expert — on the assumption that he must know more than she does. In many cases, the explanation has to do specifically with things that are unique to women — their bodies, their experiences, their lives.

From this article. There are examples in the article.

 

[Luminous]

I don't mind that males answer - many of them here have input I'd like to hear. But the male response in this thread are from males that generally have a track record of shit opinions/replies on the subject and/or dissolving into arguments on power.

I feel the need to point out that [MENTION=33707]Population: 1[/MENTION] had a good response.

 

[anticlimatic]

But the male response in this thread are from males that generally have a track record of shit opinions

I'm not sure if it applies to the people on this forum, but I hear a lot from average normal women how difficult it is dealing with the general lack of female assertiveness and all of the consequential passive aggression, slander, and reputation assassination that occurs as a consequence.

One of my girly girl friends regaled me with this amusing story about her two best friends, both women, who are feuding over a pair of jeans I believe. They both ran into each other somewhere unexpectedly, smiled and said something pleasant/formal, then 5 minutes later proceeded to blow up my friend's phone at the same time with rampant cat-like hissing over the other and the encounter. It's amazing how far vitriol snowballs when you don't have the balls to get it out directly when it's still just a minimal slight.

 

[ceecee]

I'm not sure if it applies to the people on this forum, but I hear a lot from average normal women how difficult it is dealing with the general lack of female assertiveness and all of the consequential passive aggression, slander, and reputation assassination that occurs as a consequence.

One of my girly girl friends regaled me with this amusing story about her two best friends, both women, who are feuding over a pair of jeans I believe. They both ran into each other somewhere unexpectedly, smiled and said something pleasant/formal, then 5 minutes later proceeded to blow up my friend's phone at the same time with rampant cat-like hissing over the other and the encounter. It's amazing how far vitriol snowballs when you don't have the balls to get it out directly when it's still just a minimal slight.

I don't care. I'm telling you that directly.

 

[Lark]

I don't care. I'm telling you that directly.

I see some posters, I see some topics and I think, aye, I know what way that's going to go and walk on by on the other side...

 

[Yuurei]

I'm not sure if it applies to the people on this forum, but I hear a lot from average normal women how difficult it is dealing with the general lack of female assertiveness and all of the consequential passive aggression, slander, and reputation assassination that occurs as a consequence.

One of my girly girl friends regaled me with this amusing story about her two best friends, both women, who are feuding over a pair of jeans I believe. They both ran into each other somewhere unexpectedly, smiled and said something pleasant/formal, then 5 minutes later proceeded to blow up my friend's phone at the same time with rampant cat-like hissing over the other and the encounter. It's amazing how far vitriol snowballs when you don't have the balls to get it out directly when it's still just a minimal slight.

I do that often People look at me like I've just made the worst dead baby joke every tolled and the next day I hear second hand that I've been uninvited from just about everything.
Because, yet another shitty part of being a women. Men complain about women being "passive aggressive." but if you are direct they call you're bossy and shrill.

If I can just be completely honest, it’s having to deal with sexism from OTHER women. Like can we be real for a second? Very rarely have I met a sexist man. Like a GENUINELY sexist man, who goes beyond being an angry little boy on the internet, but rather a physical adult. Usually, when I deal with sexism in real life (which to me, is the only place where it matters, as any bitch can sit behind a computer screen and be rude), it’s from another woman. Typically an older one, or a “Christian” young woman who has a stick up her ass.

I’m loud. I say exactly what I’m thinking. I curse and drink like a sailor, and I will kick you in the genitals if you piss me off. Can I be overbearing? Of course. But I find I actually earn the respect of most men and have many as close friends. With women, however, I only have two that are close friends, and the others are nothing but difficult to deal with. I’m constantly told by other women to not be so bossy. That I need to be more feminine. That “a lady shouldn’t [insert harmless activity here]”.

So yeah. Hardest thing about being a woman? Dealing with sexism... From other women.

*Rubs temples*
People do not frown upon this behavior because "Sexism" but because it's obnoxious. from ANYONE.
Cursing, yelling and being " One of the guys" ( you aren't) does not a strong woman make. I know, I used to say things when I was young. Guys do not respect you, they patronize you and it's easy because you will do any dumb thing they tell you is cool and " Not like other chicks." and you will yell and scream about it being feminism because they have fooled you into thinking that most "Badass" thing to do is to insist that "Chicks are dumb." and the only way to be a "good woman" is to completely deny your gender at all.
Personally, I got over that shit decades ago. I'm straight forward, I swear, I am a great leader/problem solver. I rarely express my emotions and am aggravated by those who do.
I also enjoy cooking, gardening and dressing up. I'll paint my nails and then destroy them playing in the mud. Many of my guy friends say that I am more manly than they are but I don't relish in it.
I find it confusing and stupid. Why must the things that I do belong to either gender? If others INSIST on classifying the things I do by gender, that is their hang-up and has no influence on me as an individual.

I'm not telling you to not be yourself. That would be quite hypocritical. I am saying that if you want to be loud and obnoxious, that's fine but OWN it. Don't blame your off-putting nature on sexism.


However, the way in which some women treat each other is pretty awful. As an adult, especially when most of your friends are married women are SO insanely competitive... face it ladies. ( who are guilty of this) it's because you're insecure and it isn't subtle. I am too old for that HS nonsense. I just want to have friends without passive-aggressive nonsense like "Forgetting" that I was going to make birthday dinner for one of the guys ( because they asked me too) buying 40 rolls of sushi "For yourself because you just happened by this new place." Grow up. Seriously.

 

[anticlimatic]

I don't care. I'm telling you that directly.

I've notice that when called out women will typically be directly passive aggressive as a next resort, typically by declaring some state of apathy or being "fine."

 

[Coriolis]

Charge Interactions

Do I really need to point out that humans are not atoms?

Not wanting to hurt someone's feelings is not respecting your own limits?

Choosing your actions such that avoiding hurting someone else's feelings is the top priority can easily violate your own limits, presuming you know what those are.

I'm not sure if it applies to the people on this forum, but I hear a lot from average normal women how difficult it is dealing with the general lack of female assertiveness and all of the consequential passive aggression, slander, and reputation assassination that occurs as a consequence.

I notice this myself - an unfortunate by-product of the programming that teaches women that being direct and assertive is "not ladylike". Essentially this:

Men complain about women being "passive aggressive." but if you are direct they call you're bossy and shrill.

I do think this is changing, but slowly.

Personally, I got over that shit decades ago. I'm straight forward, I swear, I am a great leader/problem solver. I rarely express my emotions and am aggravated by those who do.
I also enjoy cooking, gardening and dressing up. I'll paint my nails and then destroy them playing in the mud. Many of my guy friends say that I am more manly than they are but I don't relish in it.
I find it confusing and stupid. Why must the things that I do belong to either gender? If others INSIST on classifying the things I do by gender, that is their hang-up and has no influence on me as an individual.

My sentiments as well (though I don't paint my nails, or enjoy dressing up too often).

I've notice that when called out women will typically be directly passive aggressive as a next resort, typically by declaring some state of apathy or being "fine."

My, my: you are just full of generalizations today.

 

[QueenBeech]

*Rubs temples*
People do not frown upon this behavior because "Sexism" but because it's obnoxious. from ANYONE.
Cursing, yelling and being " One of the guys" ( you aren't) does not a strong woman make. I know, I used to say things when I was young. Guys do not respect you, they patronize you and it's easy because you will do any dumb thing they tell you is cool and " Not like other chicks." and you will yell and scream about it being feminism because they have fooled you into thinking that most "Badass" thing to do is to insist that "Chicks are dumb." and the only way to be a "good woman" is to completely deny your gender at all.
Personally, I got over that shit decades ago. I'm straight forward, I swear, I am a great leader/problem solver. I rarely express my emotions and am aggravated by those who do.
I also enjoy cooking, gardening and dressing up. I'll paint my nails and then destroy them playing in the mud. Many of my guy friends say that I am more manly than they are but I don't relish in it.
I find it confusing and stupid. Why must the things that I do belong to either gender? If others INSIST on classifying the things I do by gender, that is their hang-up and has no influence on me as an individual.

I'm not telling you to not be yourself. That would be quite hypocritical. I am saying that if you want to be loud and obnoxious, that's fine but OWN it. Don't blame your off-putting nature on sexism.

I understand I can come off as obnoxious at first glance. It’s an ESTP thing. We tend to talk and move forward, and talk later. And with that in mind, and based on how little you know about me, I can totally see the justifying logic in making said assumptions about me. To be fair, I did a shit job of explaining myself. At the same time...

Everything you listed in your post was based purely on assumptions, like the fact that I apparently don’t seem to know what respect is. However, I will take this time to inform you that when I say I’ve earned the respect of men, I do mean it. I don’t merely mean I have random guy friends who enjoy hanging out with me, but have peers and even higher ups who have grown to trust me, have admitted that they see me as reliable and enjoyable person, and have come to turn to me and trust me with personal matters that they usually keep to themselves.

I’m not some young teenage girl who is obsessed with the idea of being “one of the guys”, though I can see how my post was taken that way, admittedly. I’m simply myself, which is ultimately someone who is done with many other people’s shit and prefers to shoot straight. I said some females give me problems with sexism, not all. Only a very few I’m friends with, most are fine, but many of the experiences of sexism I’ve had have been from other women.

You have every right to call me out the way you did, and again, I can fully justify such actions. However, you yourself made serious mistakes in your feeble accusations, so this is me attempting to resolve this peacefully. Before it gets out of hand. I’m going to politely suggest that perhaps we both think before we speak from now on. For the sake of things not escalating.

 

[anticlimatic]

Do I really need to point out that humans are not atoms?

Do I really need to point out that they are?

 

[anticlimatic]

I notice this myself - an unfortunate by-product of the programming that teaches women that being direct and assertive is "not ladylike"..

It's a product of programming, alright. But it isn't social programming...

Gender equality paradox: fewer women in developed nations go after STEM degrees | Big Think

 

[Deprecator]

Based solely on the most common complaint I hear from my female co-workers, the hardest part about being a woman would be receiving too much (unwanted) attention from men. It's so extreme that many women I've dated have told me that they're afraid to even go out for a walk alone at night.

Ironically, I know many guys who tend to complain about not receiving any attention at all from women.

Too much or none at all? I wonder which one would be worse....

 

[Patches]

Too much or none at all? I wonder which one would be worse....

Anecdote from an "ugly duckling" case. I spent the first 25 years of my life receiving no attention from the opposite sex... And then had a pretty drastic transformation and now receive a great deal of attention. It very much is a double-edged sword. I won't say that I hate it. It's awesome sometimes. It can be really uplifting and empowering. Most of the time I eat that shit up. I love it.

Sometimes it's super, super creepy. Like, "I'm going to need someone to walk me out to my car because I'm genuinely afraid that guy who said some weird shit 4 hours ago is still waiting out in the parking lot." Most people can sense when they're making you uncomfortable and dial it back, but a few of the more special specimens just don't seem to have that radar. Or they don't care.

I think I prefer the "too much" to "none". Positive experiences outweigh the bad. But maybe I just haven't had as much time for that kind of thing to 'get old'.

 

[Deprecator]

I think I prefer the "too much" to "none".

Me too. Guess it was my loss for being born a male.

 

[Yuurei]

Based solely on the most common complaint I hear from my female co-workers, the hardest part about being a woman would be receiving too much (unwanted) attention from men. It's so extreme that many women I've dated have told me that they're afraid to even go out for a walk alone at night.

Ironically, I know many guys who tend to complain about not receiving any attention at all from women.

Too much or none at all? I wonder which one would be worse....

A walk at nigh, lol.

One night in the middle of summer it was too hot to sleep. I decided to go outside for a little fresh air. The parking lot was tiny and I had a REALLY crazy thought “ Maybe I’ll LEAVE the parking lot and go out on the sidewalk.” After all, I lived in a VERY affluent, obnoxiously liberal West Coast town ( basically bay area but north) as soon as I stepped OnE foot onto the sidewalk a car pulled up and propasitioned me. BTW I was wearing a lose fitting skirt that went to my toes and a tanktop, so the “ don’t dress like that” excuse is off the table, I ignored him and fortunatly he drive off, thank God. Could have been much worse.

 

[Cellmold]

Another thing that's hard about being a woman: Being boiled down to merely a receptacle in which new humans can form and an agent who ensures their survival. No importance beyond that. After 40, after your kids could survive on their own, you're worthless.

To me that's a dangerously cynical and overly-rationalised view of other human beings. I'm curious to know who is doing the boiling down and why? If someone has expressed this to you and made you feel as if this were true about yourself or others I can only extend my sympathy, but also the advice that anyone advocating such a view is most likely a somewhat pathological individual who has decided on a settled version of reality, is probably being deliberately disingenuous, and is perhaps best avoided and if not, then whose opinions likely require challenging.

If this is to imply that it is a majority (and therefore commonly held) position in society however...I'm not sure I can agree. At least no more than men can be boiled down to receptacles of physical labour & expendable war attrition whose only importance is that they take the most dangerous tasks in order to protect the agents who produce newly formed humans and who, by 40, are essentially crippled both physically and emotionally and are now worthless, limping on as an economic tap until they die.

The idea that a woman just needs to be more responsible, accountable, and dominant in order to be valued for her character is false, both generally in my personal experience and backed by research. Just try being the one who outperforms most of the others in school, and who refuses to play a dumb bimbo who needs to be rescued in order to impress the boys. You'll not get very far in general. See this or this.

Of those links:

The first one is interesting, I can't really afford to pay for the full findings at the moment (although I could register and hope that's one of the free options) so I'll admit my understanding is limited only to what is provided by the abstract. But it appears to be explaining that when a woman is more immediately present and has the potential to outsmart the man (their terminology not mine and i'm not sure what 'outsmarted' stands for without a context) then the men generally found them less attractive. However earlier in the same abstract it explains that: "six studies revealed that when evaluating psychologically distant targets, men showed greater attraction toward women who displayed more (vs. less) intelligence than themselves." I believe this is partially what is meant by psychologically distant vs close in their description**.

I think it's more about abstract attraction vs a contextually concrete and present attraction, with intelligence being a more nebulous factor than the abstract suggests. Plus, intelligence is not the same as outsmarting (particularly with regards to highly intelligent people and socially maladaptive tendencies) and, to reiterate, without further clarification I can't really ascertain what they intended with 'outsmarting'.

Incidentally, one of the authors of that first study is also responsible for this study which suggested "Men tend to be less selective than women when evaluating and pursuing potential romantic partners."

And also goes on to explain that in a controlled group (n=350) of people involved in a heterosexual speed dating scenario, that men became more picky when women were the 'rotators' (i.e. that they had the more active or 'pursuing' role) and men were the 'sitters' (that they stayed in a static role waiting for approach) it also had a correlation with increased confidence in both men and women who were rotators over sitters. One implication perhaps being that the traditionally more active role of men approaching women means they are more likely to be less picky as they are taking an active role that involves giving over the final responsibility of choosing to the (in this case traditionally female) sitter.

If anything, it's an encouraging look at how a more egalitarian method of approaching potential romantic or sexual interests can benefit both men and women.

This leads nicely into the second link.

Now this one is more difficult since the rating of intelligence was an abstract between 1 and 10, rated by the participants, in itself this is a fairly reliable measurement according to this study here: https://www2.le.ac.uk/departments/npb/people/amc/articles-pdfs/optinumb.pdf .

However in this study: Perceived Intelligence Is Associated with Measured Intelligence in Men but Not Women there is a claim that people were able to accurately determine the intelligence (in this case defined using the Czech version of the Intelligence Structure Test) of men but not women. Which implies that the method used in the second link to determine the abstract ratings might be inaccurate when it comes to evaluations of the women's intelligence.

It also finishes with "That is, maybe women are more flexible when it comes to judging an ideal partner. They can get what they want from a man who is attractive but not so intelligent, but they can also get it from a man who is intelligent but not so attractive."

They use this to justify the final judgement that: " Men may be more rigid in their requirements and — for whatever reason — have a fixed idea of what constitutes an ideal partner."

So that 'for whatever reason' is not explored and the paragraph above it seems to also imply that men are better at giving the opposite sex what they want but not vice versa, in that they can 'get what they want'. Implying this as only due to a possible flexibility on the woman's part diminishes any role the man has to play in that choice, which I think is an unbalanced skewing of how people interact with one another. Power plays a part, but it's not the only factor.

And that's without getting into the muddy waters of IQ distribution across gender, with the general result being that the evidence suggests women have a more stable distribution than men, who tend to inhabit the extremes of low and high at both ends.

https://qz.com/441905/men-are-both-dumber-and-smarter-than-women/

http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/sexdifferences.aspx

But that's a controversial topic and intelligence isn't as strongly correlated with wisdom or ethical conduct as would be supposed, nor is it necessarily correlated in IQ. In other words: You might be more intelligent than another, but that doesn't mean you are guaranteed to be 'better' than the other person, at least when it comes to what you bring into the world.

It is certainly true, though, that high intelligence is a very strong factor in social isolation and loneliness, for both men & women.

I'm only going through this effort, because I think a lot of people feel the same as you do on these subjects and I think sometimes there is a distorted view of the world that can take hold when people are frustrated by what they've experienced. Which is not to say I think you have not experienced this particular barrier in life & to some extent I share the frustration. Although in my case I'm somewhat hesitant to point to intelligence as a factor over other more pressing issues (such as with intimacy).

However I welcome any thoughts and counter-points to what I've just outlined.

PS: I might also have to spend some time going through the actual study mentioned in link 2, as this would provide a clearer picture and it can be found here: https://www.researchgate.net/public...ntelligence_as_economic_bad_in_partner_choice since my issues with the article might stem from their use of loaded language such as "in other words, men value beauty over brains (no surprise there)." So in fairness, I can agree with the idea that women get a bum wrap in that area of attractiveness.

Although what I would do about that is a bigger question than I think I can conceive of.



**

Interpersonal attraction may be shaped by (a) one’s psychological distance from a target (the subjective experience that a target is close to or far from the self) and (b) the perceived standing of a target on a trait relative to the self (as better or worse than the self). We propose that when evaluating a psychologically distant target, individuals may rely on abstract schemas (e.g., the desirability of a partner’s traits) and prefer targets who possess more (vs. less) desirable qualities than themselves.

 

[Lark]

Anecdote from an "ugly duckling" case. I spent the first 25 years of my life receiving no attention from the opposite sex... And then had a pretty drastic transformation and now receive a great deal of attention. It very much is a double-edged sword. I won't say that I hate it. It's awesome sometimes. It can be really uplifting and empowering. Most of the time I eat that shit up. I love it.

Sometimes it's super, super creepy. Like, "I'm going to need someone to walk me out to my car because I'm genuinely afraid that guy who said some weird shit 4 hours ago is still waiting out in the parking lot." Most people can sense when they're making you uncomfortable and dial it back, but a few of the more special specimens just don't seem to have that radar. Or they don't care.

I think I prefer the "too much" to "none". Positive experiences outweigh the bad. But maybe I just haven't had as much time for that kind of thing to 'get old'.

Writes creepy rep to Patches.