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Yeahhhhh.... My problem is I tried to read it when I was too young (I was probably ten) and never got very far, and it kind of put me off to trying later. I got engrossed instead in Tolkien and Donaldson and Brooks and Le Guin and never got back around to Herbert. I mainly am excited now because it's Villeneuve, and then my secondary excitement is finally learning more about this story I missed years ago.
Ironically, my son (who is going with me tonight) read the book a few weeks ago (it took him 2-3 days) so he's much more aware of the story than me. I am happy to watch the film and eventually read the book based on how much I enjoy the film.
Interested to hear what the book readers thought about it. My perspective is going to be a bit different, as I had nothing to compare it to and could just take it at face value.
I am aware that the first 100-200 pages of book involved a lot of exposition and setup, which I am assuming was streamlined and reshaped into just the kernels that carried the story forward on the screen. So we didn't get a ton of the backdrop about the Emperor for example, or long descriptions of space travel issues, or explanations for the largest organization in play here and what they are trying to accomplish. However, films aren't really capable of that level of exposition -- you have to go to longer formats like prestige TV if you want that kind of thing -- and I will say I was never/rarely confused on what was actually happening, because I was listening to the dialogue and short lines of dialogue unpacked a lot.
(I also thought that what true exposition that was foisted on the audience was handled as organically as possible -- for example a few sequences where Paul is naturally trying to learn about the Fremen or Arrakis, for example, so HE'S getting information which we are overhearing, and it's never too long, it's just enough to understand what is being seen.)
In a nutshell, I picked up the gist of everything, at least in the film:
Harkonnen was handling spice trade harvested from Arrakis for 80 years and has become immeasurably rich.
The Emperor has them leave abruptly and gives those holdings to House Atreides, not because they are favored but because their power has been growing and the Emperor fears them -- hence he is setting the House up to fail by drawing them into conflict against a powerful opponent who supports the Emperor.
Duke Leto Atreides actually understands this quickly (it explains his undercurrents of sadness and frankness in the film) but also views it as a great opportunity if House Atreides survives the challenge.
Paul was not supposed to exist, Jessica was supposed to have a daughter (part of the order's genetic engineering), but out of love for Leto and/or ambition to play an important role in the long-term plans of the Bene Gesserit, she births a son instead. The Bene Gesserit are not pleased and are doubtful of Paul's suitability for their goals, but also see this as an opportunity -- they set him up to face very difficult challenges, if he dies he would have been unsuitable regardless but if he rises to meet them perhaps he will be shaped into someone they can use.
Fremen myth speak of an outworlder who will be a messiah figure for them. The Bene Gesserit involves itself enough to plant the seeds of Paul being the Messiah on Arrakis, which is why everyone calls him such as soon as he lands, but that is all the help they can provide.
The Reverend Mother becomes aware of the plot by the Emperor to destroy House Atreides and negotiates with Harkonnen to not destroy Jessica or Paul ("let them be sent to exile")... which of course Baron Harkonnen agrees to, but secretly plans to leave them to their deaths in the unendurable heat of Arrakis' deserts.
Paul has been having dreams and can somewhat use The Voice even before he experiences Spice in the film, suggesting he has the potential for power by his breeding and upbringing, but the visions are not necessarily reflective of the future. (The film shows both conformance and yet deviation from Paul's visions.)
The Fremen resent the outsiders stripping their planet of resources but basically just want them to leave / stay out of the desert. Leto Atreides is playing a long game and actually seems positive about making contact, and he seems honorable enough to one day develop an alliance. Despite being dealt a losing hand, he seems pretty canny in terms of strategic thinking.
Doctor Yueh betrays House Atreides to save his captured wife, but of course this goes badly for him.
THe Emperor's forces and House Harkonnen slaughter House Atreides in the resulting battle, and few escape. Paul and Jessica only escape death by using the Voice and their natural skills. The traitor doctor still tried to support Leto and Paul, he has passed Paul some information and his father's signet. Paul and Jessica both know the passing of Leto when it occurs (when Leto crushes the poisoned tooth, killing himself and all other House Harkonnen reps in the room, although Baron Harkonnen barely escapes due to his anti-grav unit). Paul is now the Duke of a house that mostly doesn't exist.
They are met up with Duncan Idaho and Liet-Kynes (the latter who was supposed to assist the transition of power to Atreides on the planet but took a firmly neutral stance -- although now we realize with her affinity for Paul that her true allegiance as a Fremen is to the potential Messiah). Unfortunately they are tracked and pretty much all of those survivors die to enable Jessica and Paul to escape.
After the two escape, they wander the desert looking for the Fremen and eventually find them. Their ability to survive and how they deal with the Fremen at first prove their worth, but one of the Fremen insists on fighting in order to prove himself as leader material and manipulates the situation into a death match with Paul, as he champions his mother.
In Paul's visions, he had been killed in this battle, and no one expects him to win... but his training has been true and after multiple instances of defeating his aggressor without striking a final death blow, he kills him. Paul has never killed a man. It is devastating even if necessary (since it wins he and Jessica a place among the Fremens), and Paul seems to recognize this as his path forward.... another time of training and hardship to hone him into who he needs to be by choice, as his father told him earlier in the film.
Paul himself is aware quickly of how he has become a focal point of various social factions because of his political and biological lineage; he resents this in some ways and feels used by everyone, including his mother, but at the same time resolves to rise to the challenge.
Obviously there is a lot more going on in the book -- we don't really get much about space travel aside from Spice being needed for the navigators to handle light speed jumps, since I guess (from talking to my son) AI / robotic help has been abandoned long before due to a potential uprising, so humans have turned to other ways of providing that kind of utility. I think this relates too to the Mentats, where we see two in the film (one belong to each house, marked by the lip tattoo) -- they are genetically engineered to be kind of "living computers" I guess and perform those kind of data/calculative roles in the society when needed.
I did rewatch half the film when I got home again to catch bits of dialogue that I missed on screen (on occasion, characters talk too fast and/or quietly), but pretty much I was picking everything up easily enough. I found it pretty accessible considering how bad it could have been.
The art and sound design was just incredible. Nice cinematography -- Villeneuve tends to go for simple shots with a lot of wide open space -- and there was care made with shots that could have been throwaways (like spaceships landing and taking off, under cool weather configurations) to lend them gravitas and energy. I got chills when the Emperor's envoy first lands to formally offer Atreides possession of Arrakis. The design of the copters was so neat, like the dragonfly. Somehow Zimmer even got bagpipes to fit into the sound palette for the film. Even the title design was cool, with the same shape representing all four characters just spun about and is still entirely readable.
The core characters were well cast and evoke a lot of emotion. I like how Jessica veers between fear (for her son) and ambition (to hone his skills). Leto has both a feeling of mourning and resolute hopefulness about him. Paul is wrestling with a lot, as he passes from innocence to experience. I like how the Fremen at the end seem dismissive of Paul until he proves himself, unlike all the machinations earlier in the film and even his visions; maybe everyone else bought into the propaganda, but he's going to need to sell his value by his worth.
Oh, did anyone else note that the interstellar carrier ships look an awful lot like sandworms, in terms of design? Is that on purpose?
Interested to hear what the book readers thought about it. My perspective is going to be a bit different, as I had nothing to compare it to and could just take it at face value.
I am aware that the first 100-200 pages of book involved a lot of exposition and setup, which I am assuming was streamlined and reshaped into just the kernels that carried the story forward on the screen. So we didn't get a ton of the backdrop about the Emperor for example, or long descriptions of space travel issues, or explanations for the largest organization in play here and what they are trying to accomplish. However, films aren't really capable of that level of exposition -- you have to go to longer formats like prestige TV if you want that kind of thing -- and I will say I was never/rarely confused on what was actually happening, because I was listening to the dialogue and short lines of dialogue unpacked a lot.
(I also thought that what true exposition that was foisted on the audience was handled as organically as possible -- for example a few sequences where Paul is naturally trying to learn about the Fremen or Arrakis, for example, so HE'S getting information which we are overhearing, and it's never too long, it's just enough to understand what is being seen.)
In a nutshell, I picked up the gist of everything, at least in the film:
Harkonnen was handling spice trade harvested from Arrakis for 80 years and has become immeasurably rich.
The Emperor has them leave abruptly and gives those holdings to House Atreides, not because they are favored but because their power has been growing and the Emperor fears them -- hence he is setting the House up to fail by drawing them into conflict against a powerful opponent who supports the Emperor.
Duke Leto Atreides actually understands this quickly (it explains his undercurrents of sadness and frankness in the film) but also views it as a great opportunity if House Atreides survives the challenge.
Paul was not supposed to exist, Jessica was supposed to have a daughter (part of the order's genetic engineering), but out of love for Leto and/or ambition to play an important role in the long-term plans of the Bene Gesserit, she births a son instead. The Bene Gesserit are not pleased and are doubtful of Paul's suitability for their goals, but also see this as an opportunity -- they set him up to face very difficult challenges, if he dies he would have been unsuitable regardless but if he rises to meet them perhaps he will be shaped into someone they can use.
Fremen myth speak of an outworlder who will be a messiah figure for them. The Bene Gesserit involves itself enough to plant the seeds of Paul being the Messiah on Arrakis, which is why everyone calls him such as soon as he lands, but that is all the help they can provide.
The Reverend Mother becomes aware of the plot by the Emperor to destroy House Atreides and negotiates with Harkonnen to not destroy Jessica or Paul ("let them be sent to exile")... which of course Baron Harkonnen agrees to, but secretly plans to leave them to their deaths in the unendurable heat of Arrakis' deserts.
Paul has been having dreams and can somewhat use The Voice even before he experiences Spice in the film, suggesting he has the potential for power by his breeding and upbringing, but the visions are not necessarily reflective of the future. (The film shows both conformance and yet deviation from Paul's visions.)
The Fremen resent the outsiders stripping their planet of resources but basically just want them to leave / stay out of the desert. Leto Atreides is playing a long game and actually seems positive about making contact, and he seems honorable enough to one day develop an alliance. Despite being dealt a losing hand, he seems pretty canny in terms of strategic thinking.
Doctor Yueh betrays House Atreides to save his captured wife, but of course this goes badly for him.
THe Emperor's forces and House Harkonnen slaughter House Atreides in the resulting battle, and few escape. Paul and Jessica only escape death by using the Voice and their natural skills. The traitor doctor still tried to support Leto and Paul, he has passed Paul some information and his father's signet. Paul and Jessica both know the passing of Leto when it occurs (when Leto crushes the poisoned tooth, killing himself and all other House Harkonnen reps in the room, although Baron Harkonnen barely escapes due to his anti-grav unit). Paul is now the Duke of a house that mostly doesn't exist.
They are met up with Duncan Idaho and Liet-Kynes (the latter who was supposed to assist the transition of power to Atreides on the planet but took a firmly neutral stance -- although now we realize with her affinity for Paul that her true allegiance as a Fremen is to the potential Messiah). Unfortunately they are tracked and pretty much all of those survivors die to enable Jessica and Paul to escape.
After the two escape, they wander the desert looking for the Fremen and eventually find them. Their ability to survive and how they deal with the Fremen at first prove their worth, but one of the Fremen insists on fighting in order to prove himself as leader material and manipulates the situation into a death match with Paul, as he champions his mother.
In Paul's visions, he had been killed in this battle, and no one expects him to win... but his training has been true and after multiple instances of defeating his aggressor without striking a final death blow, he kills him. Paul has never killed a man. It is devastating even if necessary (since it wins he and Jessica a place among the Fremens), and Paul seems to recognize this as his path forward.... another time of training and hardship to hone him into who he needs to be by choice, as his father told him earlier in the film.
Paul himself is aware quickly of how he has become a focal point of various social factions because of his political and biological lineage; he resents this in some ways and feels used by everyone, including his mother, but at the same time resolves to rise to the challenge.
Obviously there is a lot more going on in the book -- we don't really get much about space travel aside from Spice being needed for the navigators to handle light speed jumps, since I guess (from talking to my son) AI / robotic help has been abandoned long before due to a potential uprising, so humans have turned to other ways of providing that kind of utility. I think this relates too to the Mentats, where we see two in the film (one belong to each house, marked by the lip tattoo) -- they are genetically engineered to be kind of "living computers" I guess and perform those kind of data/calculative roles in the society when needed.
I did rewatch half the film when I got home again to catch bits of dialogue that I missed on screen (on occasion, characters talk too fast and/or quietly), but pretty much I was picking everything up easily enough. I found it pretty accessible considering how bad it could have been.
The art and sound design was just incredible. Nice cinematography -- Villeneuve tends to go for simple shots with a lot of wide open space -- and there was care made with shots that could have been throwaways (like spaceships landing and taking off, under cool weather configurations) to lend them gravitas and energy. I got chills when the Emperor's envoy first lands to formally offer Atreides possession of Arrakis. The design of the copters was so neat, like the dragonfly. Somehow Zimmer even got bagpipes to fit into the sound palette for the film. Even the title design was cool, with the same shape representing all four characters just spun about and is still entirely readable.
The core characters were well cast and evoke a lot of emotion. I like how Jessica veers between fear (for her son) and ambition (to hone his skills). Leto has both a feeling of mourning and resolute hopefulness about him. Paul is wrestling with a lot, as he passes from innocence to experience. I like how the Fremen at the end seem dismissive of Paul until he proves himself, unlike all the machinations earlier in the film and even his visions; maybe everyone else bought into the propaganda, but he's going to need to sell his value by his worth.
Oh, did anyone else note that the interstellar carrier ships look an awful lot like sandworms, in terms of design? Is that on purpose?
The fall of House Atreides (the attack on the Arrakis capital) played out on screen pretty much the way I envisioned it in the book which was neat to see.
Perfect film. Was definitely made by someone who knew their stuff. They got practically everything from the books, including some stuff ive not seen mentioned anywhere apart from them. The Old Duke and the Bull references, along with the Orange Catholic Bible just dropped in without info dump. The Aesthetics perfectly capture the book while still giving a nod to the films that came before. Flawless Victory of a film.
The first Death of Duncan Idaho and the charge of Gurney Halleck was brilliant. I really hope we get The rest of the books. I found the series in 8th grade and was obsessed all the way through high school. And this was the most in depth and acurate screen portayal so far. they did make a few changes that I thought worked well Making Liet Kynes a woman was pretty cool, and also omitting Dr Yueh's last words we're not too jarring. and worked well. It was welcome that they used the Atreides hand signals to communicate, and had the various different languages of the Imperium.
Coming in as someone who has both never read the book or seen any of the previous movies (though I ought to do both...)
I liked it! I kind of felt like it might have been better suited as a TV series on HBO or something like that (Been also watching Foundation every Friday and I get similar feelings between both) but I really like how they've tee'ed up Part 2 and I thought it did a good job of setting the stage and introducing the characters.
Some random questions
1) So is Mr. Skarsgards character (the head of House Harnokeen I think it's called) a snake guy or something? There was one scene where it looked like he had a long snake body and then there wasn't. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what I saw.
2) Also, how in the world did he survive the poison gas when everyone else in the room didn't?
3) Is there a reason there so much fascination with machete-like swords instead of super-cool laser/bolters/other-Warhammer 40kish-stuff? I'm assuming the book explains this but I don't think the movie really did
Coming in as someone who has both never read the book or seen any of the previous movies (though I ought to do both...)
I liked it! I kind of felt like it might have been better suited as a TV series on HBO or something like that (Been also watching Foundation every Friday and I get similar feelings between both) but I really like how they've tee'ed up Part 2 and I thought it did a good job of setting the stage and introducing the characters.
Some random questions
1) So is Mr. Skarsgards character (the head of House Harnokeen I think it's called) a snake guy or something? There was one scene where it looked like he had a long snake body and then there wasn't. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what I saw.
2) Also, how in the world did he survive the poison gas when everyone else in the room didn't?
3) Is there a reason there so much fascination with machete-like swords instead of super-cool laser/bolters/other-Warhammer 40kish-stuff? I'm assuming the book explains this but I don't think the movie really did
House Harkonnen was once a noble house, very close to House Atreides. During the Butlerian Jihad, House Harkonen was disgraced as cowards by House Atreides. It becan a centuries long fued between the houses. He is not a snake guy. Once upon a time he was very fit and handsome, until he raped a Bene Geserit to produce a daughter for the Reverend Mother Gaius Helena Moheim(for their breeding program, The Baron is acutally the paternal father of the lady Jessica) The Baron has been infected with a very specialized chemical punishement (the Bene Geserit have 100% of their bodies and can just manifest diseases transmited sexually at will when they want to.
He survived the gas, because Dr Yueh initially gives a final speech after he's stabbed: "You think you've defeated me? You think I dont know what I've gained for my wife." And that made the baron paranoid, so when the duke exhauled the gas, he turned his repulors all the way up and clung to a small ventilation shaft, but even so it did very nearly kill him.
The swords over the laser are due to the shields. Theyre kinetic so the faster a projectile is inbound, the shield repels it better, the slow blade penetrates the shield. which is why hand to hand is so much of the fighting, and Duncan Idaho was considered one of the best Sword maters in the entire imperium. House Attreides was untouchable militarily, they were publicly popular and powerful. The Emperor literally had to politick them to death. and even as it was, if Dr Yueh hadnt betrayed them, they couldnt have even taken them out with three legions of Sardukar. Because the Atreides were expecting it.
House Harkonnen was once a noble house, very close to House Atreides. During the Butlerian Jihad, House Harkonen was disgraced as cowards by House Atreides. It becan a centuries long fued between the houses. He is not a snake guy. Once upon a time he was very fit and handsome, until he raped a Bene Geserit to produce a daughter for the Reverend Mother Gaius Helena Moheim(for their breeding program, The Baron is acutally the paternal father of the lady Jessica) The Baron has been infected with a very specialized chemical punishement (the Bene Geserit have 100% of their bodies and can just manifest diseases transmited sexually at will when they want to.
He survived the gas, because Dr Yueh initially gives a final speech after he's stabbed: "You think you've defeated me? You think I dont know what I've gained for my wife." And that made the baron paranoid, so when the duke exhauled the gas, he turned his repulors all the way up and clung to a small ventilation shaft, but even so it did very nearly kill him.
The swords over the laser are due to the shields. Theyre kinetic so the faster a projectile is inbound, the shield repels it better, the slow blade penetrates the shield. which is why hand to hand is so much of the fighting, and Duncan Idaho was considered one of the best Sword maters in the entire imperium. House Attreides was untouchable militarily, they were publicly popular and powerful. The Emperor literally had to politick them to death. and even as it was, if Dr Yueh hadnt betrayed them, they couldnt have even taken them out with three legions of Sardukar. Because the Atreides were expecting it.
Coming in as someone who has both never read the book or seen any of the previous movies (though I ought to do both...)
I liked it! I kind of felt like it might have been better suited as a TV series on HBO or something like that (Been also watching Foundation every Friday and I get similar feelings between both) but I really like how they've tee'ed up Part 2 and I thought it did a good job of setting the stage and introducing the characters.
Some random questions
1) So is Mr. Skarsgards character (the head of House Harnokeen I think it's called) a snake guy or something? There was one scene where it looked like he had a long snake body and then there wasn't. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what I saw.
2) Also, how in the world did he survive the poison gas when everyone else in the room didn't?
3) Is there a reason there so much fascination with machete-like swords instead of super-cool laser/bolters/other-Warhammer 40kish-stuff? I'm assuming the book explains this but I don't think the movie really did
House Harkonnen was once a noble house, very close to House Atreides. During the Butlerian Jihad, House Harkonen was disgraced as cowards by House Atreides. It becan a centuries long fued between the houses. He is not a snake guy. Once upon a time he was very fit and handsome, until he raped a Bene Geserit to produce a daughter for the Reverend Mother Gaius Helena Moheim(for their breeding program, The Baron is acutally the paternal father of the lady Jessica) The Baron has been infected with a very specialized chemical punishement (the Bene Geserit have 100% of their bodies and can just manifest diseases transmited sexually at will when they want to.
He survived the gas, because Dr Yueh initially gives a final speech after he's stabbed: "You think you've defeated me? You think I dont know what I've gained for my wife." And that made the baron paranoid, so when the duke exhauled the gas, he turned his repulors all the way up and clung to a small ventilation shaft, but even so it did very nearly kill him.
The swords over the laser are due to the shields. Theyre kinetic so the faster a projectile is inbound, the shield repels it better, the slow blade penetrates the shield. which is why hand to hand is so much of the fighting, and Duncan Idaho was considered one of the best Sword maters in the entire imperium. House Attreides was untouchable militarily, they were publicly popular and powerful. The Emperor literally had to politick them to death. and even as it was, if Dr Yueh hadnt betrayed them, they couldnt have even taken them out with three legions of Sardukar. Because the Atreides were expecting it.
Some of that is from those prequel novels Frank Herbert's son wrote, I think (along with Kevin J. Anderson who wrote a stupid Star Wars story where IG-88 took over the second Death Star). I'm not sure I like that explanation for Harkonnen's appearance. I prefer to think he becomes completely debauched and got a device so he doesn't have to walk (seems like something a rich asshole might do) which along with a gluttonous diet contributes to his massive appearance.
