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Gandalf, Saruman and Galadriel

yeghor

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I noticed in the video below from the movie Hobbit that Saruman (as well as Elrond) keeps shutting down Gandalf and keeps bringing up the focus to the facts at hand, and dismisses Gandalf's reasoning due to lack of facts whereas Galadriel is more willing to listen to his speculation.

It is known from the LotR movies that Saruman in later stages moves on to building up his own army whereas Gandalf keeps trying to unite an alliance between free people of the Middle Earth.

1) Why do you think that the two Wizards' approach is so different?

2) Why do you think Gandalf can perceive some foul scheme is in motion yet Saruman or even Galadriel cannot?

3) In the second video, why does Gandalf say Saruman prioritizes military power over social solidarity?

4) We know that the 3rd wizard Radagast is a stoner naturalist (read hippie) living in solitude, then why is Saruman so irritated with him?

5) What would you say about the types of Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel and Radagast?

Gandalf:

Saruman:

Galadriel:

Radagast:


 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I noticed in the video below from the movie Hobbit that Saruman (as well as Elrond) keeps shutting down Gandalf and keeps bringing up the focus to the facts at hand, and dismisses Gandalf's reasoning due to lack of facts whereas Galadriel is more willing to listen to his speculation.

It is known from the LotR movies that Saruman in later stages moves on to building up his own army whereas Gandalf keeps trying to unite an alliance between free people of the Middle Earth.

1) Why do you think that the two Wizards' approach is so different?

2) Why do you think Gandalf can perceive some foul scheme is in motion yet Saruman or even Galadriel cannot?

3) In the second video, why does Gandalf say Saruman prioritizes military power over social solidarity?

4) We know that the 3rd wizard Radagast is a stoner naturalist (read hippie) living in solitude, then why is Saruman so irritated with him?

5) What would you say about the types of Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel and Radagast?

Gandalf:

Saruman:

Galadriel:

Radagast:



4 is because he was forced by the gods (basically) to take him with him on his mission to Middle Earth to defeat Sauron. It seems like he kind of saw him as an annoying younger sibling that Mommy and Daddy made him bring along for his big important mission. He also despises him because he spends soo much time learning about things that he doesn't consider useful or valuable.
 

yeghor

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4 is because he was forced by the gods (basically) to take him with him on his mission to Middle Earth to defeat Sauron. It seems like he kind of saw him as an annoying younger sibling that Mommy and Daddy made him bring along for his big important mission. He also despises him because he spends soo much time learning about things that he doesn't consider useful or valuable.

Regarding question 4:

4.1) Why does Saruman think the things Radagast chooses to learn are not useful or valuable?

4.2) Are they useless and not valuable?



Edit: Radagast reminded me of Terence McKenna.

 

Kingu Kurimuzon

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Saruman was jealous of Gandalf. This is stated somewhere in the lore, right? I can’t remember where since I have not read the books in decades
 

Kingu Kurimuzon

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If they played MTG, Saruman would play a red and black deck. Gandalf would play white and blue. Radagast would play green.
 

yeghor

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If they played MTG, Saruman would play a red and black deck. Gandalf would play white and blue. Radagast would play green.

What's the significance of the colors of decks?



Saruman was jealous of Gandalf. This is stated somewhere in the lore, right? I can’t remember where since I have not read the books in decades

I haven't read the lore myself but this guy explains it in the video

 

Kingu Kurimuzon

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What's the significance of the colors of decks?

White represents peace, law, equality
Blue represents knowledge, cautiousness, perfecting
Green represents nature, wildlife, connectedness
Black represents power, self interest,death
Red represents freedom, emotion, destruction
 

yeghor

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White represents peace, law, equality
Blue represents knowledge, cautiousness, perfecting
Green represents nature, wildlife, connectedness
Black represents power, self interest,death
Red represents freedom, emotion, destruction

What decks would Radagast play?

If they played MTG, Saruman would play a red and black deck. Gandalf would play white and blue. Radagast would play green.

Oh I missed that you already said Green Deck for Radagast. I think he would get some cards from the white deck as well.
 

Kingu Kurimuzon

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What decks would Radagast play?



Oh I missed that you already said Green Deck for Radagast. I think he would get some cards from the white deck as well.

I could see Saruman possibly playing white as well. At least prior to going full evil mode in the LotR trilogy
 

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yeghor

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Gandalf's mindset seem to fit with the Bant faction.
1*6mU_ojIIEz-OogyO_Dqavw.jpg



Radagast with the Naya faction.
1*dL-pkk2137tUwkau7nNk7w.jpg



Saruman with the Grixis faction.

1*CBZ33GLGB2k3sSIz6ZeGtg.jpg
 

Totenkindly

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Saruman was jealous of Gandalf. This is stated somewhere in the lore, right? I can’t remember where since I have not read the books in decades

If you are discussing the movies, the books don't matter as much. There are similarities but also differences.

For example, Saruman was not just a pawn of Sauron like he was in the films, they did that to simplify things just like they made Caradhas dumping snow on the Fellowship to be a product of Saruman's magic rather than it simply being a product of Caradhas' natural sentience to protect its slopes. In the book, Saruman served himself while interacting with Sauron and pretending to support him, while also developing the Uruk-hai and sending them out to find the Ring for himself. Basically it was as multi-pronged war, Saruman was the third force trying to burst out and grab the ring while playing both other sides.

Also, Tolkien didn't really cast Radagast as a hippie-dippie like Jackson did, where they almost made him into comic relief -- making him a gnome-like creature with his own quirks due to lack of interest in people compared to nature. The book Radagast was in human form and more quietly serious, it seemed more like he forgot his mission over time and focused on preserving nature without regarding the evil that could be wrought as Sauron as destructive to that whole goal. Thus he grew detached from the war between the free peoples and Sauron.

I like some parts of the films and hate others, I tend to go back to the source when I look for the authoritative essence of the characters. If people are more interested in the film depictions, that's fine.
 

yeghor

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If you are discussing the movies, the books don't matter as much. There are similarities but also differences.

For example, Saruman was not just a pawn of Sauron like he was in the films, they did that to simplify things just like they made Caradhas dumping snow on the Fellowship to be a product of Saruman's magic rather than it simply being a product of Caradhas' natural sentience to protect its slopes. In the book, Saruman served himself while interacting with Sauron and pretending to support him, while also developing the Uruk-hai and sending them out to find the Ring for himself. Basically it was as multi-pronged war, Saruman was the third force trying to burst out and grab the ring while playing both other sides.

Also, Tolkien didn't really cast Radagast as a hippie-dippie like Jackson did, where they almost made him into comic relief -- making him a gnome-like creature with his own quirks due to lack of interest in people compared to nature. The book Radagast was in human form and more quietly serious, it seemed more like he forgot his mission over time and focused on preserving nature without regarding the evil that could be wrought as Sauron as destructive to that whole goal. Thus he grew detached from the war between the free peoples and Sauron.

I like some parts of the films and hate others, I tend to go back to the source when I look for the authoritative essence of the characters. If people are more interested in the film depictions, that's fine.

What do the books say about Saruman's opinion about Gandalf and Radagast, especially after he has become more self serving?
 

Totenkindly

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What do the books say about Saruman's opinion about Gandalf and Radagast, especially after he has become more self serving?

I'm keying mostly off Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales.

Saruman was chosen first by the Valar to go to Middle Earth to bolster the resistance to Sauron in the Third Age. The various gods appointed various Maiar (e.g., Curumo = Saruman, Olorin = Gandalf, etc.) to go on this mission. Olorin was selected to lead, Alatar (one of the two "blue wizards") was also selected, and then Manwe asked Olorin to go. Olorin said he did not feel strong enough to go and that he was afraid of Sauron, and Manwe said this was why he wanted Olorin to go.

Two others were selected -- Aiwendil = Radagast and the other blue wizard, Pallando, to accompany Alatar. This is important because Saurman was the leader and did not select Radagast -- rather, he was foisted on Saruman by the wife of the valar who had designated Saruman. So there was already resentment there for Radagast, he was always viewed as baggage by Saruman. This was then exacerbated because Saruman was the "Many Skilled" while Radagast was just interested in nature and beasts; Saruman is like the guy who gets a Doctorate in a science field while sneering at the guy who thinks he is his equal while only getting a community college degree in farming, for example.

Gandalf was the shortest of the five, weirdly, he looked older and more physically diminished than the others. This makes sense because he was the one who most embraced humility. All five were forbidden to use their power to dominate men and elves, they were only allowed to encourage and embolden others to resist Sauron. The gods wanted to avoid a rehash of what happened with Sauron previously.

The story about Narya's gifting by Cirdan fostering resentment for Gandalf is true; Cirdan was a wise judge of character and granted Gandalf the ring when he came to Middle Earth because he sensed the wizard would need it, to keep his own fires burning. (Saruman's fire was like the fire that destroys, but Gandalf's was the kind of fire that kindles and provides warmth.) Because Saruman's gift (besides the many skilled) involved ferreting out secrets, he eventually grew aware of what Cirdan had done; he felt he deserved the ring because he was the leader, and this was a slight that offended his pride over the long years.

It's not clear what happened to the blue wizards. They went with Saruman into the east but never returned. Did Saruman destroy them? Divert them to keep them out of his business? We never find out. They do not play a part in the ongoings of Middle Earth, though.

Anyway, yes, Saruman's scorn for Radagast is expressed in LOTR ("Bird tamer!" and a bunch of other insults), he sees him as worthless and beneath him. He also hates Gandalf because he should be receiving the praise and gifts that Gandalf received, that he did not because of his pride. Meanwhile, he was also seeking the One Ring for himself. Note that Gandalf is very wary of using the palantir, but Saurman uses it on the sly to try to probe Sauron because he thinks he is strong enough to resist him. (It turns out he isn't, quite... it probably influences his fall to the dark.)

Gandalf also had affection for the small things (like hobbits), which again an arrogant Saruman could mock. But you have to wonder on some level if he did not fear Gandalf a bit -- kind of as a fellow rival, because of Gandalf's success at being accepted and valued by the races of middle earth. It's kind of this long slow fall from grace for Saruman. And then after it all goes south, we find out he's also been destroying the Shire... mainly just for petty revenge on the hobbits who ended up waylaying his plans under Gandalf's wisdom. He mocks them for thinking they could just do all those things, then go home and enjoy the fruit of their labors under Gandalf's protection. He takes great pleasure in turning their joy to ashes, as much as he can... it's the final petty act for a fallen angel. His cruelty leads to Wormtongue murdering him, and then his spirit dissipates, unable to return to the West....
 

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Regarding question 4:

4.1) Why does Saruman think the things Radagast chooses to learn are not useful or valuable?

Probably because it's not something you can easily use to obtain power. It's all about learning about things as they are, things that serve their own purposes which may not easily align with your own and cannot easily be made to be so.

4.2) Are they useless and not valuable?

Depends on your point of view. Is having a pet useful? I'm not talking about behaviors that might be useful, like catching mice or guarding your house, I'm talking about the very act of having a pet.
 

Totenkindly

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Probably because it's not something you can easily use to obtain power. It's all about learning about things as they are, things that serve their own purposes which may not easily align with your own and cannot easily be made to be so.



Depends on your point of view. Is having a pet useful? I'm not talking about behaviors that might be useful, like catching mice or guarding your house, I'm talking about the very act of having a pet.


Yeah, basically Saruman is the "many skilled," he likes to use his abilities to produce results. Everything is about utility and outcome for him, he only seems to care much for things as much as they produce what he desires. THere's a reason he is also identified with technological progress / industrial revolution in LotR. (TOlkien was grappling with that at the time, watching his beautiful English countrysides being converted to industry.) Saruman does the same to destroy the Shire at the end as well, but he trashes Isengard as well in the pursuit of making things he can use to accomplish his goals. He seems to care about things only as far as they as useful to his goals.

Radagast is definitely the opposite, he has a "do no harm / don't change the natural world" thing going, as you say. He just cares about maintaining what is and enabling that cycle of life to continue.
 

yeghor

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Depends on your point of view. Is having a pet useful? I'm not talking about behaviors that might be useful, like catching mice or guarding your house, I'm talking about the very act of having a pet.

Saw [MENTION=7]Totenkindly[/MENTION] your comment later.

Yeah, basically Saruman is the "many skilled," he likes to use his abilities to produce results. Everything is about utility and outcome for him, he only seems to care much for things as much as they produce what he desires. THere's a reason he is also identified with technological progress / industrial revolution in LotR. (TOlkien was grappling with that at the time, watching his beautiful English countrysides being converted to industry.) Saruman does the same to destroy the Shire at the end as well, but he trashes Isengard as well in the pursuit of making things he can use to accomplish his goals. He seems to care about things only as far as they as useful to his goals.


Radagast is definitely the opposite, he has a "do no harm / don't change the natural world" thing going, as you say. He just cares about maintaining what is and enabling that cycle of life to continue.

Depends on the benefit you gain from what you choose to learn or do I guess. A pet may provide emotional satisfaction so is useful and valuable to the self. Depends on your goals then I guess.

Then:

3) In the second video, why does Gandalf say Saruman prioritizes military power over social solidarity?

1) Why do you think that the two Wizards' (Gandalf vs Saruman) approach is so different?

2) Why do you think Gandalf can perceive some foul scheme is in motion yet Saruman or even Galadriel cannot?
 

Totenkindly

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Then:

3) In the second video, why does Gandalf say Saruman prioritizes military power over social solidarity?

1) Why do you think that the two Wizards' (Gandalf vs Saruman) approach is so different?

2) Why do you think Gandalf can perceive some foul scheme is in motion yet Saruman or even Galadriel cannot?

Well, I'm not super-fond of Jackson's interpretations of Dol Guldur in general, it ends up being too much of a D&D wizard crapfest. (I am not really fond of how Jackson represents magic; in the books, it springs from essence in general, and at times Jackson exploits this to excess, like when Saruman and Gandalf fight or Galadriel gets all green and glowy. It is better represented in the films when Arwen shows up exposing her pure essence, like when Frodo sees her like a shining goddess. THat is what the highest elves look like when unveiled because they spawned from Valinor or close to it.)

Anyway, both of those film clips are not in the book, they are extrapolations by Jackson, Boyens, and Walsh based on general texts in the books. So I would not hinge much on the DETAILS -- like the morgul blade used to prove Gandalf found something interesting, or the specific language that Saruman uses for Radagast. Yes, gandalf found clues, and yes Saruman disdained Radagast.

However, the generalities are accurate. Gandalf did suspect the shadow was growing in Mirkwood and investigated before anyone else did, he suspected long that the Necromancer might be a guise of Sauron. Galadriel DID want Gandalf to head the White Council, which gnawed at Saruman because he considered himself better than everyone; but Gandalf refused because he did not want to be tied down nor wanted to make any allegiances as de facto leader. Saruman seemed to appreciate hierarchy, Gandalf saw it as a fetter of sorts. (this is right out of the Simlarillion.) Saruman derailed attempts to remove the Necromancer early, not because he did not believe it was Sauron (although he pretended it was not), but because as one of the other videos suggests, I think, that he knew the Ring would seek out his master and wanted time for the Ring to reveal itself so he could find it first.

Saruman overall is fairly conventional. Emotion is not power, POWER is power -- and if you want to be in control, you use your power to do what you want to do. This is why he respects force, it is an overt form of power. But all of Saruman is about power, he develops his skill and craftsmanship (a form of power), he manufactures an army (again, power), he looks for the Ring (the ultimate source of power) and envies those who have other rings of (dare I say it?) "power".

As a side thing, this also means that Saruman does not like situations where he is not in control. He is going to manage risk and not engage if he feels he does not have power over the situation.

Gandalf is different. He sees more value in qualities and essence -- get the motives and the passions and the ideals aligned, and the rest will fall into place. He is Open-oriented, not Closure-oriented -- investigative, exploratory. He wanders everywhere, has made many connections, all as part of his learning. He knows he doesn't know everything and wants to understand more. Because he is more focused on "essence," this also is why he might have more suspicions about the Necromancer -- and instead of deciding what the answer is, what does he do? He investigates... at peril to himself.

So I think this is a big difference between Saruman and Gandalf -- Saruman tries to assert control via the user of power and thinks he already knows everything (to avoid the signs of weakness), whereas Gandalf is as we see him when he was given this mission, he doubts himself, he can experience fear and uncertainty, and so he is able to GROW and investigates things to improve his abilities and knowledge. He also does not seek to dominate, he wants to inspire and encourage, he finds value in others and even the smaller things of the world. he is not convinced (like Saruman is) that POWER is power, he thinks that certain things have qualities that allow them to resist and even overcome power.
 

Totenkindly

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Galadriel is interesting. Again, not super fond of everything Jackson did with her, although Cate Blanchett was great casting.

Galadriel is the last remaining leader of the Noldor Exile from Valinor thousands of years ago. She came with Feanor (her uncle, who crafted the Simarils and who had them stolen by Morgoth and thus they uttered their damnable Oath that destroyed their lineage) and similar family, but she did not share the Oath herself. She was ambitious then, she longed for a place away from Valinor that was open and unspoiled and that she could rule over... but it seems like less than a power thing and more of just to have something that was truly hers and where she had to answer to no one. Self-autonomy? Anyway, she helped lead her faction to safety even after betrayed by Feanor, and eventually found that place for herself.

She was given an option to leave middle earth with any of the elves who returned to Valinor, I think after the second age? But chose to stay behind in Middle Earth which they still loved, with Elrond and Celeborn and some of the others.

So she is really the last remaining elf or at least the most powerful elf in Middle Earth who saw and had lived in the Blessed Lands with her own eyes. Her essence is very strong. Note that elves of that stature and essence were capable of wrestling with balrogs. Fingolfin, her uncle, actually rode out to meet Morgoth himself (a Vala) in direct combat and wounded him multiple times before Morgoth essentially cheated and Fingolfin was slain.

So could Galadriel have destroyed Sauron? Pretty possibly, if she wore the One Ring. Note here that her rejection of the Ring puts her more on Gandalf's side (and the side of the Valar who sent him) rather than on Saruman's, who would exploit such a power. I always loved Galadriel because of this. She has an offer to take power and be Queen for good reasons but rightly accepts that such power would corrupt, she accepts her own weakness, and she also accepts the passing of time and of the seasons -- that her time on Middle Earth is drawing to a close, and so she must relinquish rather than claim power, and accept her fate. this is the cycle of mortality, that we accept our ending as mortal beings. She knows who and what she is and refuses to pretend to be more than that, even if it inevitably means she must pass from Middle Earth.
 

yeghor

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Gandalf is different. He sees more value in qualities and essence -- get the motives and the passions and the ideals aligned, and the rest will fall into place. He is Open-oriented, not Closure-oriented -- investigative, exploratory. He wanders everywhere, has made many connections, all as part of his learning. He knows he doesn't know everything and wants to understand more. Because he is more focused on "essence," this also is why he might have more suspicions about the Necromancer -- and instead of deciding what the answer is, what does he do? He investigates... at peril to himself.

So I think this is a big difference between Saruman and Gandalf -- Saruman tries to assert control via the user of power and thinks he already knows everything (to avoid the signs of weakness), whereas Gandalf is as we see him when he was given this mission, he doubts himself, he can experience fear and uncertainty, and so he is able to GROW and investigates things to improve his abilities and knowledge. He also does not seek to dominate, he wants to inspire and encourage, he finds value in others and even the smaller things of the world. he is not convinced (like Saruman is) that POWER is power, he thinks that certain things have qualities that allow them to resist and even overcome power.

The above part about doubt and uncertainty reminded of this clip:


Then it would not be wrong to say that Saruman and Gandalf (and Radagast) are quite different personalities.
 
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