sculpting
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- Jan 28, 2009
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Can you provide an example of the above? Would this be like the baby ENTPs who go around pushing buttons perhaps? There was a great deal of that last year...I guess I never realized the underlying motive was to destabilize others. From my perspective emotional destablization of others makes no sense at all. If the point of a discussion is to come closer to an objective notion of truth, it makes no sense to evoke emotional responses intentionally as then the feedback received on the objective idea is more or less gibberish.
What I have noticed more this year was a more pervasive trend towards more subtle personal attacks such as "If you believe that you must be [insert insult]". Rather than discuss the actual idea being proposed and have a back and forth discussion of facts/ideas about the topic under discussion, the whole convo would shift to a discussion of individuals having flawed characters. It was really quite odd and totally irrational to observe.
I think Orobas that that is the equivalent of Te destabilizing a person's idea. By making the person feel destabilized, maybe the thinking on his part was to see what comes out then - does the argument or stance hold together even when the person gets emotional? What's left? Don't know...
I was chatting with Fidelia in a thread in the bonfire and my original answer in another quote to Fidelia was actually incorrect, so I wanted to explore how others feel/think Fe and Te can be used to nudge others either to change Fe or Te objective judgments, or actually go deeper and modify the Ti and Fi subjective principles of another person.
Pattern 1:Te/Fe:
Te and Fe communicative nudges seem to be very direct and even blunt. It seems okay to both-as the Te and Fe is external to the ego perhaps?
Pattern 2: Fi/Ti:
Fi and Ti suggestions seem to be much more roundabout, more suggestive of exposing those subjective principles to another, then gently pointing out areas of disagreement. It is very subtle, rather indirect and never overtly states that the other is WRONG, rather seeks areas of nonagreement, then tries to gently realign the other person, while simultaneously cross-checking one's own Ti/Fi for possible errors. Maybe they really are correct.
Pattern 3: Nudging external with Te/Fe to realign anothers Fi/Ti through the other's Te/Fe:
It also seems that a Te/Fe dom/aux will directly state Fe/Te judgments that highlight the incorrectness of another person's Fe/Te judgment-with the result being that the person goes back and spends time reassessing the internal Ti/Fi principles that underlay the Fe/Te judgment. This reassesment is done quietly, alone given it is an introverted function.
This may be what Fidelia and I were chatting about above...Fidelia seems to be correct.
Pattern 4: An Fi/Ti aux/dom principle which gets extroverted as Te/Fe to go through another's Te/Fe to realign their Fi/Ti principles:
So I guess you could also have a pattern where this happens as well. The best example I can come up with is the enfp bitchslap but perhaps it is seen other places? Perhaps it is something seen mostly in Ti/Fi auxs and terts?
Miscommunication:
So I could see miscommunication across the Te-Fi/Fe-Ti boundary as we each try and follow our natural communication techniques above.
The further away from us the other person is wrt cognitive function order, the more of a train wreck might be created. Also, I can see the Fe/Fe boundary being worse than then Te/Ti boundary, given that while values arent emotions-they can evoke an emotional defense response when stepped upon.
As a communication pattern gets more complex with more steps-it seems there will be much greater risks of confusion. So maybe patterns 1 and 2 might annoy us if used from someone across the Te/Fe boundary, pattern 3 would result in hurt egos, but pattern 4 would result in a total lack of comprehension because what they are doing makes no sense at all?
So I dunno if any of this is correct or not but I wanted to start the thread and it least see it the patterns seem familiar to others. If some of the above sounds too certain please ignore the certainty and feel free to question or suggest other ways of looking at the problem. Just consider my thoughts above initial scribbles on a white board, observations but in no way conclusive at all.