Cooperative Dependence

[á´…eparted]

Yes, that is what we all generally say.

But when you look at how imperfect people are...how many are addicted and how many have been abused, it would mean that many marriages or relationships would break up and many people would live alone, which might be something unhealthy people are not very capable of. Is it better to be tied in to one other human being in this life, than for these sad souls to attempt life alone?

Great, continue to come up with more damaging and harmful ways in which people should live their lives.

The list just keeps on growing.

 

[Ivy]

False dichotomy- it would be better if they would both take care of their issues, whether apart or with help while still together, than to feed each other's sicknesses by staying together without any intervention.

 

[Coriolis]

[MENTION=2]Ivy[/MENTION] [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION]

Nobody disputes that a full blown codependant relationship (between two people with personality disorders) is going to end in tears. But the question I would ask is more whether as a society, we've gone too far in the other direction and are more relationship avoidant than is healthy. If young men and women fear losing their freedom and autonomy through making a commitment to someone else, that negative perception will deter them from seeking intimacy and the fulfillment it can bring. I feel that is the point of the OP.

Personally, I yearn for the days where you could sweep a girl off her feet, flirt using figurative language, people still wrote decent poetry and nobody was afraid of getting married and having children. But that's just me and I acknowledge I'll always have a minority view on here.

Nothing wrong with all this, as long as, should one partner die, desert, or be disabiled, the other can carry on without being functionally crippled. You don't have to be the gourmet cook your spouse was, or be able to change a tire in record time. But if you can't keep food on the table, and have to sit by the roadside waiting for a good samaritan in the event of a flat, you have allowed your dependence to debilitate you.

No one ever showed me how to change a tire. The first time I got a flat, at night in the middle of nowhere (OK, a tiny town with 4 buildings and one streetlamp), I took out my car's manual, read how to change a tire, laid out the tools and the spare, stood and eventually jumped on the lug wrench to loosen the overtightened nuts, and just changed the thing. As I was packing up, a guy finally wandered over asking whether I wanted help. Gee, thanks. And bonus: the thought of possible sexual assault didn't even cross my mind.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Great, continue to come up with more damaging and harmful ways in which people should live their lives.

The list just keeps on growing.

I'm an intuitive thinker. So much of what I ask is hypothetical and truth-seeking. If a person wanted to understand me, they should not infer that I always think people should live out the questions I bring to light. Right now, I am exploring this concept. The concepts of two types of dependency, healthy and unhealthy; and the concept of codependency itself.

 

[Coriolis]

But when you look at how imperfect people are...how many are addicted and how many have been abused, it would mean that many marriages or relationships would break up and many people would live alone, which might be something unhealthy people are not very capable of. Is it better to be tied in to one other human being in this life, than for these sad souls to attempt life alone?

These are not the only options. Marriage, or marriage-like intimate partnership, is not the only alternative to living alone. The fact of being tied to one person can itself lead to resentment, especially if the relationship isn't very healthy. Sometimes it's better, as the saying goes, to release what you love. If it returns/stays, then you know it is really yours.

 

[á´…eparted]

I'm an intuitive thinker. So much of what I ask is hypothetical and truth-seeking. If a person wanted to understand me, they should not infer that I always think people should live out the questions I bring to light. Right now, I am exploring this concept. The concepts of two types of dependency, healthy and unhealthy; and the concept of codependency itself.

I'd never thought I'd use this quote on you, of all people: "Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out".

Co-dependency is unhealthy. Period. There is no discussion on that, and the fact that you are trying to make it out to be a good thing is really bad, and potentially harmful to others who might not understand it.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

You should probably think of all options before you write something down. I said co-dependency is an unhealthy form of relating, but it begs the question that relating at all is often better than not relating. Not always, but often.

Society always wants to throw the difficult or bad people away. But we are all difficult or bad to varying degrees. If we throw away all the bad people, I think we won't have that many left. And their mates will become alone as well.

Our culture is crying out for perfectionism to the point where we have books of diagnoses for physical and psychological diseases and disorders that need to be fixed.

Why can't we just live in our 'dysfunction' the best we can, and focus on being as happy as possible in it? Instead we feel constant shame at not being good enough or healthy enough or worthy enough of relationship or .... love itself.

 

[Ivy]

Nobody's saying throw them away. Just, get some damn help for your problems rather than foisting them on others. Yes, I do think people are better off alone than with an abuser who won't seek help, even if the abuser makes them feel real special sometimes.

 

[prplchknz]

Nothing wrong with all this, as long as, should one partner die, desert, or be disabiled, the other can carry on without being functionally crippled. You don't have to be the gourmet cook your spouse was, or be able to change a tire in record time. But if you can't keep food on the table, and have to sit by the roadside waiting for a good samaritan in the event of a flat, you have allowed your dependence to debilitate you.

No one ever showed me how to change a tire. The first time I got a flat, at night in the middle of nowhere (OK, a tiny town with 4 buildings and one streetlamp), I took out my car's manual, read how to change a tire, laid out the tools and the spare, stood and eventually jumped on the lug wrench to loosen the overtightened nuts, and just changed the thing. As I was packing up, a guy finally wandered over asking whether I wanted help. Gee, thanks. And bonus: the thought of possible sexual assault didn't even cross my mind.

microwaves and triple a

 

[Coriolis]

microwaves and triple a

Ah - that's just dependence transferred.

What will you do in the zombie apocalypse???

 

[prplchknz]

Ah - that's just dependence transferred.

What will you do in the zombie apocalypse???

die or join them.

decided this like a year ago

plus i'll probably run out of gas before i get a flat tire and it's not like the pumps will be getting refilled and i do know how to cook. but yeah i'd still die or join them everyone else is dead at that point probably.

 

[Ivy]

For the record now I have AAA so I don't change tires, but nor do I have to call my husband for help.

 

[prplchknz]

I've learned how to change a tire a few times but i never remember how.

 

[Coriolis]

For the record now I have AAA so I don't change tires, but nor do I have to call my husband for help.

I prefer to make use of such options for convenience rather than out of necessity.

 

[Kullervo]

Our culture is crying out for perfectionism to the point where we have books of diagnoses for physical and psychological diseases and disorders that need to be fixed.

Why can't we just live in our 'dysfunction' the best we can, and focus on being as happy as possible in it? Instead we feel constant shame at not being good enough or healthy enough or worthy enough of relationship or .... love itself.

Because nobody else feels this way, you'd be judged for being different. And because to find a mate you have to meet somebody else's standards, individuality is a curse.

You feel shame for a reason, it's because somebody else has looked at you and decided you're unworthy of them because of something you can't change.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Because nobody else feels this way, you'd be judged for being different. And because to find a mate you have to meet somebody else's standards, individuality is a curse.

Ahh, but there is someone for everyone, mostly.

You feel shame for a reason, it's because somebody else has looked at you and decided you're unworthy of them because of something you can't change.

This sounds personal. Care to share? Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[Kullervo]

This sounds personal. Care to share? Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean.

Oh, no. Sorry if I'm wandering off topic. I was trying to sort of create imagery in people's minds (something I often do) which is relevant to appearance and rejection? Yeah. We're both confused.

EDIT: Got some ideas for a song now though.

 

[Bush]

I like how Stephen Covey conceptualizes this whole thing as codependence, independence, and interdependence.

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Seven_Habits_Study_Guide/Paradigms_and_principles

Dependence >> Independence >> Interdependence[edit]
The habits are designed, when you put them in practice, to help you mature as a person. This process of maturing is described below:

Dependence >> Independence >> Interdependence
We all start out life as babies completely dependent on our parents or other person to take care of us. This is a state of weakness and powerlessness.

As we grow up we work to become independent, moving out of our parent's home, earning money for ourselves, etc. A person at this level is able to do things for himself and does not need anyone else to survive.

The greatest human achievements come from people working at the third level, interdependence. This is when people work together to achieve a common goal, and is the level of maturity of many people in a mature society or organization. This is how mankind has achieved things together that no single person could do alone. Interdependence is the state of human development of greatest maturity and power.

As we develop our character as people, we grow in each of the seven areas described by the seven habits. In this process we move up the chart from dependence to independence to interdependence.

Bam. Here's the difference between codependence and.. not codependence.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I like how Stephen Covey conceptualizes this whole thing as codependence, independence, and interdependence.

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Seven_Habits_Study_Guide/Paradigms_and_principles



Bam. Here's the difference between codependence and.. not codependence.

Nice descriptors.

But he did not address codependence there....maybe he did somewhere else? Or cooperative dependence. Or do you think he meant the same thing with his term 'interdependence'?

 

[Bush]

Nice descriptors.

But he did not address codependence there....maybe he did somewhere else? Or cooperative dependence. Or do you think he meant the same thing with his term 'interdependence'?

I've gotta look into it in detail, but I'd imagine that one could describe codependence as two dependent people. Interdependence is all about a relationship between two people who can stand on their own two feet.