And if he isnt risen...

[wool]

Reward, enticement, it all means the same thing.

No, it does not, I already explained why.

I believe because of the life and ministry of Jesus, it matters not to me whether there is or isnt eternal life or any other supernatural dimension to what I believe is the metaphysical/cosmic reality, God may well have decided to give us all one life and that is all, we are made from dust, animated by the breath of God and return to it.

It sounds like you have a lot of faith in the resurrection.

The narrative that you're constructing about Satan seems Manichean to me BTW, Satan is not as powerful as God or able to so easily undoing his pre-ordained plans either.

Neat, I have never heard of this.

I never said satan is as powerful as God. Why do you seem to think I did?

 

[Lark]

No, it does not, I already explained why.

Dont accept your explanation. See my post.

It sounds like you have a lot of faith in the resurrection.

I'm not sure that you're reading my posts, or maybe its just a matter of understanding. Anyway, glad you're having a laugh.

Neat, I have never heard of this.

I never said satan is as powerful as God.

I did not see a way of interpreting your posts otherwise.

Anyway, I get the feeling the discussion is done.

 

[wool]

Dont accept your explanation. See my post.

That's like the Hebrews saying "I don't even care if there is a 'Promised Land', this grueling journey through a desert wasteland is perfectly fine on it's own."

We are being molded in this life so we can reclaim our rightful inheritance from God, which satan stole from us.

This reveals a serious lack of understanding on your part.

I did not see a way of interpreting your posts otherwise.

How are you interpreting my posts? I would love to clear up this misunderstanding.

Anyway, I get the feeling the discussion is done.

Get back here.

 

[Lark]

That's like the Hebrews saying "I don't even care if there is a 'Promised Land', this grueling journey through a desert wasteland is perfectly fine on it's own."

We are being molded in this life so we can reclaim our rightful inheritance from God, which satan stole from us.

This reveals a serious lack of understanding on your part.

Yeah, the word you're looking for is not understanding, its agreement, a serious lack of agreement on my part.

How are you interpreting my posts? I would love to clear up this misunderstanding.

Its all there if you want to read over, I'm not going to repeat myself.

Get back here.

You got me to agree with Disco Biscuit.

Congratulations.

 

[wool]

Yeah, the word you're looking for is not understanding, its agreement, a serious lack of agreement on my part.

What, exactly, about what I said, do you not agree with?

 

[Lark]

What, exactly, about what I said, do you not agree with?

Read the thread.

 

[wool]

Read the thread.

I can't help you if you don't help me.

 

[wool]

1 Corinthians 15:14-17

14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.
17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

 

[Zangetshumody]

1 Corinthians 15:14-17

14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.
17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

the meaning of the real scripture is lost in that translation.

1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

The version that you quoted has taken the "is not", present tense language, which should not have been conflated into the past tense claim of "has not been".
The tense of your translation has been purposefully mangled to fit the literal interpretation of the scriptures, this adaption of the 'Gospel' turns it into a worldly system of belief, invested into historical authority, rather than a true Gospel that merely involves historical accounting within its own process of explanation, detailing that any salvation occurs through an identical spiritual action, unified in an essence of the process, although the quickening involved is cumulative (and might even be ranked in their contributory powers to any/all spiritual salvation (this is the Kingdom of God)).

 

[wool]

the meaning of the real scripture is lost in that translation.

1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

The version that you quoted has taken the "is not", present tense language, which should not have been conflated into the past tense claim of "has not been".
The tense of your translation has been purposefully mangled to fit the literal interpretation of the scriptures, this adaption of the 'Gospel' turns it into a worldly system of belief, invested into historical authority, rather than a true Gospel that merely involves historical accounting within its own process of explanation, detailing that any salvation occurs through an identical spiritual action, unified in an essence of the process, although the quickening involved is cumulative (and might even be ranked in their contributory powers to any/all spiritual salvation (this is the Kingdom of God)).

I only use that translation sometimes because it's easier to understand for those not familiar with the antiquated language of the KJV.

It's only the logic behind the words that is important here, not the tense of the language.

If Christ is not resurrected, then He is not the Son of God, and your faith is empty.

Any truth relating to Christ is utterly meaningless if He is not risen.

 

[Zangetshumody]

I only use that translation sometimes because it's easier to understand for those not familiar with the antiquated language of the KJV.

It's only the logic behind the words that is important here, not the tense of the language.

If Christ is not resurrected, then He is not the Son of God, and your faith is empty.

Any truth relating to Christ is utterly meaningless if He is not risen.

The reference of the name Christ, and the name Jesus Christ, is not the same reference. "Christ", by the very doctrine promulgated by Jesus Christ, is much more related to a great mystery of the doctrine, where "he" is not a person:

1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Again, notice the present tense reference to "the Son of God is come"^

-------
the reference to the "Christ" (as opposed to "Jesus Christ"), allows for a concentrated elaboration on the spiritual action within the life of the Son of God: wherein the flesh is conquered, even as the world was overcome by Jesus Christ, and so death is swallowed up because sin is dismantled through salvation, with its communion—

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

It is hard to understand, because there is no real communion, or treatment of sin in the 'modern "church"'. And so the doctrine is converted into a neo-pagan experience of mythological proportion, invested into the worlds dominion, starkly drawn from the seduction into the knowledge of good and evil, and no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2Co 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
2Co 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[wool]

I think you are way overthinking things.

The neo-pagan church you're referring to is Mystery Babylon, the church of the world/system of false churches.

The church of Christ, His spiritual body, is made up of every individual believer in Christ who has come out of that false church system.

 

[Zangetshumody]

I think you are way overthinking things.

The modern neo pagan church you're referring to is the church of the world/system of false churches/Mystery Babylon.

The Church of Christ, His spiritual body, is made up of every individual believer in Christ who has come out of that false church system.

Is the Resurrection of Christ, a thing which is seen?
If it is a thing which was seen, how will you confess it?
Either it is seen to the understanding, and it is an understanding of an unseen and eternal truth, or it is seen of the flesh and becomes the understanding of a temporal thing (and corruptible in all consequence). Jesus attracted many multitudes which 'followed' him, but only the little flock of true believers will seek the kingdom and so be offered the salvation from the Gospel.

1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[wool]

Either it is seen to the understanding, and it is an understanding of an unseen and eternal truth, or it is seen of the flesh and becomes the understanding of a temporal thing (and corruptible in all consequence). Jesus attracted many multitudes which 'followed' him, but only the little flock of true believers will seek the kingdom and so be offered the salvation from the Gospel.

God said that understanding is proven by the act of departing from evil.

 

[Zangetshumody]

God said that understanding is proven by the act of departing from evil.

then I suppose I should take my leave of this hollow exchange.

 

[wool]

then I suppose I should take my leave of this hollow exchange.

No need to be rude.

 

[1487610420]

“Blessed are the destroyers of false hope, for they are the true Messiahs - Cursed are the god-adorers, for they shall be shorn sheep!”

.

 

[StrawberryBoots]

This is something which I've spent a lot of time thinking about, I once asked in what was unfortunately a disrespectful manner which probably robbed what I was saying of any meaningfulness a Jesuit about it too, if they found "the bones of Christ" would there be any Christianity or any Christians?

Tolstoy in his Gospel in Brief, I think it was, said that the gospels decided for him how he ought to live and questions about an afterlife were mute to him really, it was how to live now that mattered rather than what comes next or questions about eternity, I have a lot of sympathy for that position, all the scare tactics of the various evangelists about eternity where or eternity when and stuff like that, none of it phases me, none of it resonates with me at all, I care not a jot about it, I hope that love conquers death and I can meet all my ancestors and family and friends and, importantly, my dogs and goldfish which have perished already but its not a decider of my faith.

The actual life and ministry of Jesus to me are so significant that if it were all he wrote then I think it'd be sufficient, his life, ministry and interpretation of jewish traditions, seeming negative theology but which did not deny or dismiss a supernatural dimension, all resonate strongly with me. I've read some fantastic literary takes on the tale, like Kahil Gibran's, which dont say a lot about an afterlife and resurrection.

What is your thinking, also could you say whether or not you a believer and whether or not the whole conquered death thing is that important or not to you.

If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, then there wouldn't be Christianity as we know it. The purpose of Christ dying was to pay the penalty for mans' sins, which the penalty is physical and spiritual death. If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, then death wouldn't have been conquered, and there'd be nothing but death. Does that make sense?

 

[Mole]

How can you say this with confidence? It is at least genetically possible that all humans came from one pair.

The very slow selection of DNA over millions of years make the idea of Eve and Adam ridiculous.

 

[Mole]

If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, then there wouldn't be Christianity as we know it. The purpose of Christ dying was to pay the penalty for mans' sins, which the penalty is physical and spiritual death. If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, then death wouldn't have been conquered, and there'd be nothing but death. Does that make sense?

Imagine if death were abolished: within a very short time there would be so many of each creature, we would be a plague, we would drown each other. So we die to make room for the next generation. Parents know this instinctively, and know the worst thing is for their children to die before them.

So we die so our children may live. This basic fact of biology is reprised in Christianity where Jesus dies so we may live.