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And if he isnt risen...

Gunboat Diplomat

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Agreed! But the problem I have is that #2 does not produce new species, forms, or body plans.
Per your number example, I'm not disputing that NS works like 1+1+1+... What I am saying is that result "5" is not an example of a new form. It's more like going via 1+1+1... you need to get to result 997 and only prime numbers along the way are viable steps. Each time you hit a non-prime number you run a high probability of the whole process failing.

Revisiting your main assertion for a moment:

We don't need to use prime numbers. This is a completely arbitrary constraint that you insert without providing any justification. You haven't proposed any mechanism that would constrain evolutionary processes to microevolution, aside from degree. I will give you another analogy:

Ojian: Hey, last year I invested 10,000 and now I have 1000 more.

The Biologist: Yes, 50 years ago, I invested 10,000 and now i have a million.

Ojian: That's impossible, a million is orders of magnitude more than a thousand!

The Biologist: :17425:
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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It's funny. You have flawless grammar, impeccable punctuation, your syntax and speech resemble that of an advanced artificial intelligence using an (ick) human body as a surrogate, your brain (or your planet's equivalent) seems to operate in a different construct...

... and yet you still don't use the apostrophe for it's when denoting possession. You've not used it for any of the it's in all of your posts lol.

It's like Agent Smith from The Matrix... he has these godlike traits because he can bend the code of the Matrix itself, so he is 'above' the code that way... but then you find out he can't double park lol.
I do not use an apostrophe here because it is incorrect. "It's" contains an apostrophe only when serving as a contraction for "it is" or "it has". Unlike possessives of nouns (Fred's, the teacher's, etc.), pronouns do not use an apostrophe (his, her, its).

I am not sure whether you will find this disappointing or reassuring. Nonetheless it is correct.
 

Despotic Ocelot

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I do not use an apostrophe here because it is incorrect. "It's" contains an apostrophe only when serving as a contraction for "it is" or "it has". Unlike possessives of nouns (Fred's, the teacher's, etc.), pronouns do not use an apostrophe (his, her, its).

How would you differentiate between plural its (the creature was an it, and an army of its was running toward you), and possessive it (one of the its took out it's bazooka)

Coriolis said:
I am not sure whether you will find this disappointing or reassuring. Nonetheless it is correct.

Hahaha. God I love that cold 'matter of factness' lol. "I am not sure whether you will approve or disapprove, nonetheless it is the proper modality to undertake"

I just really appreciate the disregard for my feelings when expressing something, especially if an objective truth is the topic... if it's that, then there should be an assumption that nothing 'personal' is going on. But even then 99% of people are still incapable of disentangling their emotions from the situation, which makes it hard to go too far in a discourse without it getting sidetracked by imagined slights. And this is an ENFP saying this! (And if you want to use astrology, a double Pisces!) lol.

I guess that's why INTJs have cornered the market on intellect. Since they never get sidetracked with stuff like nonexistent slights, they are able to continue going unabated in their accumulation of information... ending up with them being faaar ahead of everyone else, who are quibbling over what they think the other might've meant in a hidden, ulterior meaning. So they're never able to catch up to the INTJs. That kind of self imposed impediment is equivalent to how far along in advancement the world would be had there never been religion lol.


Click spoiler for a clip from the upcoming summer blockbuster Typinator 2: Judgment Ni :borg:

 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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How would you differentiate between plural its (the creature was an it, and an army of its was running toward you), and possessive it (one of the its took out it's bazooka)
The plural of "it" is "they", so the plural of the possessive "its" is "their".

The creature waved its spear in the air. An army of its fellows was running toward you, their weapons at the ready.

See how it works?

(Should I be concerned about an ENFP who refers to a living creature with enough intelligence to use weapons and mount an attack as "it"?)

Hahaha. God I love that cold 'matter of factness' lol. "I am not sure whether you will approve or disapprove, nonetheless it is the proper modality to undertake"

I just really appreciate the disregard for my feelings when expressing something, especially if an objective truth is the topic... if it's that, then there should be an assumption that nothing 'personal' is going on. But even then 99% of people are still incapable of disentangling their emotions from the situation, which makes it hard to go too far in a discourse without it getting sidetracked by imagined slights. And this is an ENFP saying this! (And if you want to use astrology, a double Pisces!) lol.

I guess that's why INTJs have cornered the market on intellect. Since they never get sidetracked with stuff like nonexistent slights, they are able to continue going unabated in their accumulation of information... ending up with them being faaar ahead of everyone else, who are quibbling over what they think the other might've meant in a hidden, ulterior meaning. So they're never able to catch up to the INTJs. That kind of self imposed impediment is equivalent to how far along in advancement the world would be had there never been religion lol.
What feelings do you have concerning the grammatical point we have been discussing? Do you consider such matters personal? Are you suggesting that religion thrives on imagined slights, or even creates them? I am not sure I understood your meaning here.

Click spoiler for a clip from the upcoming summer blockbuster Typinator 2: Judgment Ni :borg:

You have two significant errors in your dialogue here:

1. I am not nearly this amenable to suggestion.

2. I do not go around trying to type people because I am not that good at it, certainly no better than the next person.
 

Despotic Ocelot

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The plural of "it" is "they", so the plural of the possessive "its" is "their".

The creature waved its spear in the air. An army of its fellows was running toward you, their weapons at the ready.

See how it works?

Yes, but I mean in the case of 'it' being an actual name of something, and not a placeholder for a 'thing'.

Coriolis said:
(Should I be concerned about an ENFP who refers to a living creature with enough intelligence to use weapons and mount an attack as "it"?)

Are you saying it can't happen? There's no such thing as can't. Remember the name of the 14th James Bond film Never Say Never Again.

  • Cousin Itt: Addams Family
  • It: Also known as Pennywise the Dancing Clown, from the Stephen King novel It
  • It!: A movie in which the 'it' being referred to is a golem
  • It!: A creature that is the villain of this novel (not same as the film with exclamation point)
  • IT: An entity that is the villain in the novel A Wrinkle in Time
  • Five Children and It: The 'it' in the title also known as Psammead
What if someone cloned one of them to create a group of Its, and then one of them brandished a bazooka? If you say "one of the Its took out It's bazooka", would it still be incorrect to use an apostrophe?

Coriolis said:
What feelings do you have concerning the grammatical point we have been discussing? Do you consider such matters personal? Are you suggesting that religion thrives on imagined slights, or even creates them? I am not sure I understood your meaning here.

I don't know if I worded that post clearly enough, let me try it again.

I said that I appreciate that INTJs speak in a way that is disconnected from anything personal, that it's freeing because you don't have the situation you do with most people. Which is when they're confronted with forthrightness, they always take things personally, and assume you were attacking them but in a hidden way... as opposed to you just meaning what you said.

Then the next paragraph was a joke, and I started that by saying "I guess this is why INTJs have cornered the market on intellect. Since they never get sidetracked with stuff like nonexistent slights, they are able to continue going unabated in their accumulation of information... ending up with them being faaar ahead of everyone else"

And I made the analogy to religion... you know how it's often asked "how far along would we be with advancement had religion never been around"? ie, how far along would science be. Well, that... is like what I said just before that, with how far along would everyone be if forthrightness wasn't discouraged due to people's tendency to insert a nonexistent slight in things?

It's a joke tied into the "I guess this is why INTJs have cornered the market on intellect"... that the huge divide is because of the INTJ's ability to disconnect emotions from things and not take anything personally, thus allowing them to keep going on and on unabated in accumulating information... it's like what would have happened if religion had never been around to impede science.

So the correlation between society placing a taboo on forthrightness, and religion impeding the progress of science, is what was at the foundation of that post lol... hopefully you get it now. I don't know if I said it too sloppy the first time haha.

Coriolis said:
You have two significant errors in your dialogue here:

2. I do not go around trying to type people because I am not that good at it, certainly no better than the next person.

Yes, obviously.

It was a joke lol. It announced itself as such when it started with Typinator 2: Judgment Ni. Just proceed with a suspension of disbelief and you'll be good lol.

Coriolis said:
1. I am not nearly this amenable to suggestion.

Hahahaha. God I love INTJs. Why can't I ever come across one of you in real life. It's like finding the hardest to catch pokemon.

I'm curious... do you guys sound like this in real life, or is this just how you type? Just in terms of the exceedingly formal speech. I don't think I've ever met an INTJ so I wouldn't know if you actually talked like this in real life haha.

I don't mean anything negative by it, I think it's cool. I'm a sucker for anything that is unrecognizably different (in whatever form it takes) from what is 'common' because extremely different means extremely real/true to self, which is a Herculean task in a world which only wants one thing, to stop a person from doing that lol.
 

Coriolis

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Yes, but I mean in the case of 'it' being an actual name of something, and not a placeholder for a 'thing'.
You can figure this one out. If "It" is a name, then treat it the same as "Fred".

Are you saying it can't happen? There's no such thing as can't. Remember the name of the 14th James Bond film Never Say Never Again.
You can figure this one out as well, by rereading what I actually did say. Plus, I don't watch James Bond movies. I prefer Death Wish.

I don't know if I worded that post clearly enough, let me try it again.

I said that I appreciate that INTJs speak in a way that is disconnected from anything personal, that it's freeing because you don't have the situation you do with most people. Which is when they're confronted with forthrightness, they always take things personally, and assume you were attacking them but in a hidden way... as opposed to you just meaning what you said.

Then the next paragraph was a joke, and I started that by saying "I guess this is why INTJs have cornered the market on intellect. Since they never get sidetracked with stuff like nonexistent slights, they are able to continue going unabated in their accumulation of information... ending up with them being faaar ahead of everyone else"

And I made the analogy to religion... you know how it's often asked "how far along would we be with advancement had religion never been around"? ie, how far along would science be. Well, that... is like what I said just before that, with how far along would everyone be if forthrightness wasn't discouraged due to people's tendency to insert a nonexistent slight in things?

It's a joke tied into the "I guess this is why INTJs have cornered the market on intellect"... that the huge divide is because of the INTJ's ability to disconnect emotions from things and not take anything personally, thus allowing them to keep going on and on unabated in accumulating information... it's like what would have happened if religion had never been around to impede science.

So the correlation between society placing a taboo on forthrightness, and religion impeding the progress of science, is what was at the foundation of that post lol... hopefully you get it now. I don't know if I said it too sloppy the first time haha.
I was on the right track, but preferred to ask for clarification rather than to assume. I did miss that you find it a positive thing that I don't take things personally. Most people do not react positively to disregard of their feelings. I agree that we would be much better off if people not only were more forthright but also didn't take things personally as often. The two qualities go hand in hand. I am not sure how all of this correlates with religion. Most religions teach compassion and tolerance, which suggest one should not react in anger when perceiving a slight, but should extend the benefit of the doubt and try to see it from the other person's perspective. I am not commenting on the merits of this strategy, just its link to religion. What religion often does do that is counterproductive is to present answers to questions more properly addressed through scientific inquiry. Yes, detachment and impersonality are traditional traits of that method, which I suppose connects the two notions.

It was a joke lol. It announced itself as such when it started with Typinator 2: Judgment Ni. Just proceed with a suspension of disbelief and you'll be good lol.
If this is an allusion to Terminator movies, it is lost on me. I have not seen them either.

I'm curious... do you guys sound like this in real life, or is this just how you type? Just in terms of the exceedingly formal speech. I don't think I've ever met an INTJ so I wouldn't know if you actually talked like this in real life haha.
You find what I write "exceedingly formal"? I have read that INTJs do tend to be more formal than other types, and tend to be able to express themselves well, especially in writing and on impersonal topics (or any topic they can make so). Speaking just for myself, how I talk IRL is fairly close to how I write, especially when involved in the same sort of discussion (e.g. presenting an explanation for something, as opposed to figuring out what to have for dinner).
 

Despotic Ocelot

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You can figure this one out. If "It" is a name, then treat it the same as "Fred".

But what I was trying to say was... what if it is not only a name, but what it is. It's not a human, or an animal that we've seen before, it's an... it.

And in absence of a name, we resort to calling it it. And it does something that would denote possession.

The reason I ask this is to find whether there is a loophole in the 'no apostrophe for it' rule.

Coriolis said:
Plus, I don't watch James Bond movies.

That comment wasn't based on watching Bond movies or liking them haha. It was just referring to the name Never Say Never Again.

Coriolis said:
I prefer Death Wish.

:heart:

Coriolis said:
I am not sure how all of this correlates with religion.

Look at the beginning of that post. "I guess this is why INTJs have cornered the market on intellect"... and then shows how, due to their attitude towards forthrightness, they've gotten way ahead of everyone else on accumulating information, who are unable to catch up because they keep getting bogged down or impeded by getting offended by nonexistent slights.

Then I said "it's like religion and how far along advancement we'd be if religion never happened"

They're both about something impeding the progress of a thing.

And just in case you did this... don't take it literally lol. It's a joke... it's not the literal case that 'INTJs are far ahead of everyone else in intellect because they're not impeded a taboo on forthrightness'... that's not real lol. That's meant to set up a joke lol. Yes it's real that they are based on intellect... but that it's because "they've been able to proceed unabated in the accumulation of information due to not having a taboo on forthrightness, and everyone else does so they've been held back from progressing as fast"... that's a joke lol.

Coriolis said:
If this is an allusion to Terminator movies, it is lost on me. I have not seen them either.

Oh man. Oh. My. God.

Sorry to say this but... after the string of cool points you've accrued up to now, gonna have to take a big chunk away for that lol.

Although you are aware enough to refer to them as two when you say you haven't seen either of them... as opposed to referring to all 5 of them when, as any self respecting person would know, the last 3 don't count.

So I'm taking away a bunch of cool points for your not having seen something that there's no excuse not to see... but I'm not taking away as many as I COULD have, due to you knowing only the first 2 count, and not the last 3 lol.
 

Coriolis

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But what I was trying to say was... what if it is not only a name, but what it is. It's not a human, or an animal that we've seen before, it's an... it.

And in absence of a name, we resort to calling it it. And it does something that would denote possession.

The reason I ask this is to find whether there is a loophole in the 'no apostrophe for it' rule.
There is no loophole that allows use of an apostrophe in a posessive pronoun. If "it" is being used as a noun, either proper or common, then the usual rules about apostrophes apply.

And just in case you did this... don't take it literally lol. It's a joke... it's not the literal case that 'INTJs are far ahead of everyone else in intellect because they're not impeded a taboo on forthrightness'... that's not real lol. That's meant to set up a joke lol. Yes it's real that they are based on intellect... but that it's because "they've been able to proceed unabated in the accumulation of information due to not having a taboo on forthrightness, and everyone else does so they've been held back from progressing as fast"... that's a joke lol.
Well, there are some grains of truth in it, otherwise it wouldn't be funny.

Oh man. Oh. My. God.

Sorry to say this but... after the string of cool points you've accrued up to now, gonna have to take a big chunk away for that lol.

Although you are aware enough to refer to them as two when you say you haven't seen either of them... as opposed to referring to all 5 of them when, as any self respecting person would know, the last 3 don't count.

So I'm taking away a bunch of cool points for your not having seen something that there's no excuse not to see... but I'm not taking away as many as I COULD have, due to you knowing only the first 2 count, and not the last 3 lol.
Oh, my. You do indeed need some grammar lessons. The "either" referred back to the James Bond movies. I haven't seen those, and I haven't seen the Terminator movies either. Any of them. The correct number is readily identified using a simple internet search, performed before my last reply to confirm the referenced dialogue. I don't think most self-respecting INTJs would worry about missing out on popular culture, or the scorekeeping maintained by those who do.
 

Despotic Ocelot

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I don't think most self-respecting INTJs would worry about missing out on popular culture, or the scorekeeping maintained by those who do.

I wasn't literally 'taking away cool points', that was just... that's tongue-in-ch... you know what, just nevermind lol.
 

Gunboat Diplomat

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Without fail this has repeated every 10 years or so... and what do you know, it happened again. Except, you're like one of the last holdouts. You're fighting a battle that most of the people on your side have conceded, and haven't gotten the memo that they've moved onto what came before the big bang now.

I am afraid that you are unjustifiably optimistic. Ojian is far from being a holdout and things haven't been improving for a long time. Considering the current anti-scientific and anti-expert sentiments in many countries the situation looks rather bleak for the foreseeable future.

Also, judging by the avatar, Ojian is not in a habit of conceding anything, and s/he is a representative of the mindset.
 

Ojian

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'Instead' there is not being used in the way you're portraying it. You're portraying it as "nevermind genetic evidence, forget it altogether... let's use the human eye instead"

I apologize for later stating that you contributed to the idea that there is DNA from million(s) of years ago that we have to study, as that was Coriolis only that stated that.

But if you are referring your "instead" to genetic evidence, that would pre-suppose that such genetic evidence for macroevolution was presented. I am submitting that to that point in the discussion, is was not, either by you, Coriolis or Gunboat Diplomat. So if there was no genetic evidence (or DNA evidence), how else am I to interpret you going to a picture? That was all there had been presented as some sort of evidence to that point.

It's meant to be an addition to the primary evidence, which is genetic evidence and fossil evidence, which you refuse to acknowledge. So I bring in this additional evidence to show "in addition to all that, LOOK at the velociraptor. it is a different animal, but it is also not that far from a chicken".

Again, where is the evidence that was produced? The "addition" was something more than zero, which makes it the first. As for the picture, I do not think it looks like much of a chicken. It looks as much like my dog as a chicken (bushy tail, more of a snout than a beak), which is to say it doesn't look much like my dog either.

The point of THAT piece of evidence is to throw out the ridiculous 'crocoduck' and 'kangapotamus' nonsense that people like you like to espouse, because you have no understanding of how evolution works. No, it doesn't go from crocodile to duck in a matter of tens of millions of years. The change is as gradual as the velociraptor to chicken that I showed.
What are you talking about? I have not said anything like you have portrayed. Not once have I referred to anything like your 'crocoduck' You are just trying to erect a strawman.

I understand how evolution is supposed to work just fine. I just do not agree that it actually works as described. For 1) nobody can demonstrate that M+NS is capable of creating new information, which would be required for all the body form changes, plans, organs, proteins, etc., which would be required for stuff like your velociraptor to chicken in 70my, or a "crocodile to duck" in however long it might take, 2) even if #1 were not a problem, per Neo-Darwinism's own numbers for population genetics, it could not do so in the time allotted (and yes that includes velociraptor to chicken in 70my), and 3) even if #1 and #2, were dispensed with, differences in life forms contain structures that realistically cannot be built up one small change after small change over time. There are too many pieces that would have to be formed in a particular way and with the ability to interact with other particular pieces before any selective advantage were possible. M+NS is just not capable of doing that. In other words, evolution could be as slow as it wants, take as long as it wants, and it still could not produce complex interactive parts that contribute to a larger functional whole.

There is no 'may' have looked like. That IS what it looked like.
You, nor anyone else knows that. I agree that this picture is probably made via an educated guess, but there is not enough information to say with certainty that a velociraptor looked like that. Plus, in making all such pictures, the artist has to take some license in how to portray things.
Velociraptor has not been found with the full feathers as shown in your picture. Some other dinosaurs that are considered cousins (which again is a guess) like Zhenyuanlong and Microraptor had more clearly defined feathers. So at best the picture is an amalgamation of multiple sources.

But I am totally willing to concede that the picture is 100% accurate. So what? The picture does not provide any evidence of relationship between velociraptor and chickens (or any other bird). Nor does it have anything to say in support of M+NS in getting from velociraptor to birds.
Similarity of form may suggest a common source, but that in no way suggests it was evolution that ties them together. Evolution is just as valid an explanation as common design.

We have the fossils... a litany of them.
Yes, and again, they likely support a common source. But they do not necessarily speak to any ancestor relationship.

There is no 'may'... there is just physical evidence that you look at directly with your eyes. Unless of course those eyes are obfuscated by the greatest pestilence the world has ever known... religion.
Doesn't believe in science... tells me "that's not how science is done"
Doesn't understand how evolution works... tells me "that's not how science is done"

Funny, I don't think I have brought up religion once in any of my responses to you. So far all my responses have been references to science.
 

Ojian

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Once more - the full quote of what I have said:
Contrary to you other claim, vast majority of research biologists and related scientists consider evidence for macroevolution overwhelming. This is demonstrably true if you do search for peer reviewed papers on evolution. This is not a proof that macroevolution is true of course, but it will show that you claim that

"many scientists are very aware of the capabilities of NS and are instead looking for an alternative explanation."

is unsupported.
You must have a problem in conveying what you are thinking to the written word. Let's break down your statement.

"Contrary to your other claim," - though it is not really clear which claim of mine you are referring to, I would assume it is my claim that 'there is not evidence of M+NS to produce macroevolutionary changes'.

"vast majority of research biologists and related scientists consider evidence for macroevolution overwhelming." - this is your central claim. You are here making a point about numbers, a ratio (vast majority), or the numbers of scientists that believe your side. I never made any claim on a ratio, or who has more believers. I merely said "many" to refer to some scientists that oppose the view that is held by the "vast majority". With regards to the actual evidence of macroevolution, I was asking for an example of what such evidence was that was so convincing.

"This is demonstrably true if you do search for peer reviewed papers on evolution." - "This is" points back to your central claim about the "majority". And as I said before, this is nothing more than a citation bluff. Such a search would bring back a lot of results, but if you look into those papers, any reference to evolution is merely the obligatory assumption that 'X evolved' without anything in the paper showing the evidence for it. It is not my job to sift through them all to find the few that may actually be attempting to show macroevolution. I'm willing to look at them, but it is your claim, so you find them.

"This is not a proof that macroevolution is true of course," - again referring to your central claim on the "majority". Also I should point out I never claimed a proof that macroevolution was false, just that there was no evidence for it. Can you understand the difference?

".., but it will show that you claim that - "many scientists are very aware of the capabilities of NS and are instead looking for an alternative explanation." - is unsupported." - So my claim here is that there are "many" = more than 1, and significant in number (but not a majority) and type (leaders in their field), that doubt the power of M+NS to produce macroevolutionary changes and are looking for another method. This does not mean even that these scientists doubt something like common descent (which is probably best supported by the fossil record that Despotic Ocelet has been somewhat pushing), just that the mechanism for such changes between species is NOT ONLY Neo-Darwinism (mutation + natural selection). And neither these scientists (nor I) are trying to state that M+NS does not exist, or that is does not contribute in any way to some changes. It is just that Neo-Darwinism is not capable enough to explain major transitions.

The claim of mine is not disputed by your claim of a majority believing otherwise. I never claimed a majority. I just claimed a significant number, significant individuals, and a presentation at a significant scientific body (Royal Society) are questioning a long-held, supposedly rock-solid view.

This is not the 'there are more scientists on my side than yours' card. This is clearly the 'you are talking nonsense' card.
Nonsense?!? It's right there in what you wrote. Your whole central points are around the concept of numbers: who has the most scientists on their side, who has more papers.

My only claim to numbers is the word "many", which could be interpreted as '2 or more'. Of course there are more than 2, but I don't care what the supposed percentage ratio is. That is irrelavant.

Now, since you are still asking for evidence:
99% of working scientists (this includes astronomers and computer scientists) in US believe in human evolution. In Europe, it's likely more.

An Elaboration of AAAS Scientists’ Views | Pew Research Center
*SIGH* You do know that this is not "evidence", don't you? This is an Appeal from Authority, and it is a fallacious argument.
A group's claim of belief is not evidence. The evidence is what you need to to support a claim of belief. You should understand the difference.

Besides, the linked report is a red herring. But I am curious as to how closely you looked at your own reference. The relevant information is on page 3. First, I wonder what definition they are using for "evolution". It is often a very fluid term, which could mean 1) change over time, 2) change due to common descent, and/or 3) Neo-Darwininan processes. The breakdown of the question makes me think that the first part is merely referencing definition #1.
"Humans and other living things have evolved over time" - is indeed agreed upon by 99% of working PhD scientists. But frankly, I would also agree with that statement if you are defining evolution as 'change over time'. That is no big deal.
The rest of the options are more strict in interpretation:
1)"...due to natural processes such as natural selection" - 91%
2)"...guided by a supreme being" - 7%
3)"evolved, no answer on process" - 1%
4)"Have existed in their present form since the beginning of time" - 1%
Now it looks like the survey allowed for some overlap on those answers. The Neo-Darwinian view is definitely option 1, but it could allow for other materialistic properties other than M+NS. Option 2 would be in the camp of most theists, possibly panspermia advocates, or anyone that thinks highly advanced aliens could be involved. You almost might get some theistic evolutionists in here, but most of them would probably side with option 1. Option 3 is the rest of the pack if any changing process is allowed. Option 4 sounds like more a a special creation that is very static.

The problem with surveys like this is that they often are not sufficient to cover nuanced views. I hold to an intelligent design stance for how life developed, but that in itself does not scientifically point to it being God (which I also believe). If I was choosing the survey, I would probably choose option 2, but maybe 3. Not 1, not 4 (because that is not a scientifically or Biblically supported view). The scientists that I was speaking of that question M+NS would probably still choose option 1, though they think there is some other natural process other than or in addition to M+NS.

So the results of the survey are not as clear cut as you seem to imply. That 99% of scientists that believe in evolution is no big deal, since the term has a broad meaning in that context. That 9% do not necessarily believe in Neo-Darwinism as the method is significant. And the survey does not distinguish between scientists that perhaps do hold to a naturalistic method but not necessarily M+NS. It's basically irrelevant to our subject.

For the rest, I'll comment later, which should be interesting because finally you bring up some detail for evidence.
 

Mole

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Last night I went and saw the movie The Case for Christ, click on the case for christ - YouTube .

It claims the Resurrection of Christ is an historical event and is based on reason and evidence.

In fact it is a propaganda movie with high production values.

As far as we know Jesus was one of many healers of the 1st century who believed physical and mental illness was caused by demons, and Jesus is famous for casting out demons. So Jesus was, we would call today, an exorcist.

Christ by contrast is a creation of Christian theology, so Christ is not an historical figure, Christ is an imaginary creation of Christian theology or mythology. So Christ is a mythological figure.

So it is Christ who rose from the dead not Jesus. So Jesus died and Christ arose from the dead.

The movie The Case for Christ was a trance induction because in a trance our critical faculties are asleep and our imaginative faculties wake up. And we need our imaginative faculties to believe the figure of myth, Christ, is a real person who rose from the dead.

This is the nature of mythology, we accept the truth of mythology without criticism.
 

Gunboat Diplomat

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".., but it will show that you claim that - "many scientists are very aware of the capabilities of NS and are instead looking for an alternative explanation." - is unsupported." - So my claim here is that there are "many" = more than 1, and significant in number (but not a majority) and type (leaders in their field), that doubt the power of M+NS to produce macroevolutionary changes and are looking for another method. This does not mean even that these scientists doubt something like common descent (which is probably best supported by the fossil record that Despotic Ocelet has been somewhat pushing), just that the mechanism for such changes between species is NOT ONLY Neo-Darwinism (mutation + natural selection). And neither these scientists (nor I) are trying to state that M+NS does not exist, or that is does not contribute in any way to some changes. It is just that Neo-Darwinism is not capable enough to explain major transitions.

Yes, you are right. Many = more than 1. And I take you at your word, that when you invoke "leaders in their field", the Royal Society and "significant number" to claim that the evolution theory is in crisis, you are not appealing to authority.

On the other hand...

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

Arguing whether 99, 95 or 91% is an overwhelming majority is good fun, but I am more interested in your alternative theory, the evidence supporting that theory and how that theory explains the observations. You have been slashing valiantly every argument thrown at you, but it seems that you don't have a leg to stand on.
 

Coriolis

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So you guys have the strident belief to be the only 'true' religion, right? And there's a morality you stridently want to uphold? So can you denounce these flat out falsehoods I'm about to show you? Because, wouldn't you know... every other person I've shown it to has refused to. They'd be talking and talking and talking, then I'd find out they're JW, and ask them about this... and then all of a sudden, it's like they were never there. Just completely beat a hasty retreat out of the thread.
Clever way to get rid of JWs. My former colleague from Armenia, raised in the Soviet system, would sit them down and start spouting Communist propaganda at them until they begged to leave. I've heard of Wiccans asking if the JW would be willing to wait around until the rest of the coven arrives so they all can partake. It can be quite a sporting proposition.

So let's start with this one. And this is an example of quotemining, for those who don't know. Richard Dawkins is quoted as saying in his book The Selfish Gene "This book should be read almost as though it were science fiction"

HERE IS WHAT DAWKINS ACTUALLY SAID

"This book should be read as though it were science fiction. It is designed to appeal to the imagination. But it is not science fiction: it is science. Cliche or not, "stranger than fiction" expresses exactly how I feel about the truth"

Alright Ojian, so... clearly... clearly... that is a lie. That is a lie, plain and simple... it is an intentional misrepresentation with the goal to lie, in order to support your agenda.
We always called it "prooftexting". In any case, sadly, this is all par for the course nowadays, just another form of "fake news". If this is what JWs do, they are probably all landing jobs in the current administration and with "media" like Breitbart. What a boon.

See, this is why I dislike religion. Every single religion is exactly the same, and there are no differences.
Actually, that isn't true. Some religions do not proselytize at all, nor claim to be the only one true way. In fact, most such behavior that I see is coming from Christians of various denominations.


Do carry on.
 

Mole

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You never answered my question as to why you don't believe Jesus is God.

It was the penchant of Roman Emperors to rise in status to a God. And Christ was in direct competition with the Roman Emperor so it was only natural Christians would claim that Christ would have the highest status of a God.

Now I don't believe the Japanese Emperor was a God, nor do I believe the Roman Emperors were Gods, and in the same way, I don't believe Christ was God.

However I do recognise and respect that in Christian Theology Christ is both man and God, and is the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity.
 

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[MENTION=33301]Despotic Ocelot[/MENTION] . Wow, how many blood vessels did you pop writing that last post? LOL.

So let's start with this one. And this is an example of quotemining, for those who don't know. Richard Dawkins is quoted as saying in his book The Selfish Gene "This book should be read almost as though it were science fiction"

HERE IS WHAT DAWKINS ACTUALLY SAID

"This book should be read as though it were science fiction. It is designed to appeal to the imagination. But it is not science fiction: it is science. Cliche or not, "stranger than fiction" expresses exactly how I feel about the truth"

Alright Ojian, so... clearly... clearly... that is a lie. That is a lie, plain and simple... it is an intentional misrepresentation with the goal to lie, in order to support your agenda.

I wonder, do you even check the references that you are posting, or are you just copy/pasting from other websites. I ask this, because you made the same mistake in quoting from Dawkins as the website I bet you copied this complaint from (unless it is your website).

Dawkins first sentence in the preface of his 1976 version of The Selfish Gene reads: "This book should be read almost as though it were science fiction." You, like the other website that comments on this, missed the word "almost". So if anything, you are misquoting Dawkins. :)

So to answer your charge -
1) The JW book you are apparently complaining about quoted that sentence accurately. That sentence was in Dawkins book. So the quote itself is not a lie.

2) Was it a misrepresentation? No.

If you correct the first sentence in Dawkins preface as I laid out above and combine it with the rest of what you quoted, it shows Dawkins full quote. Now obviously, Dawkins does not believe that the subject of his book is fiction. He believes it is "truth". So then what does he mean in saying "This book should be read almost as though it were science fiction."? Wouldn't a reasonable meaning be that what Dawkins is about to describe in his book at least has the sound, or appearance, of being fictional. Not that it is fictional, but it at least sounds fictional, especially with the word "almost" included in that context. Couldn't some of the things he describes in his book, that he believes are actually true, quite possibly have a listening person shake their head and say, "Wow, unbelievable!" in the 'cliche' sense?

How is it presented in the JW book? The section paragraph begins as: "A current evolutionary position on life's starting point is summarized in the book, The Selfish Gene, by Richard Dawkins. He speculates that in the beginning, Earth had..." and then goes on to talk about the supposed formation of an "organic soup" in the ocean.

The next paragraph reads: "Then, according to Dawkins' description, "a particularly remarkable molecule was formed by accident"- a molecule that had the ability to reproduce itself. Though admitting that such an accident was exceedingly improbable, he maintains that it must nevertheless have happened. Similar molecules clustered together, and then, again by an exceedingly improbable accident, they wrapped a protective barrier of other protein molecules around themselves as a membrane. Thus, it is claimed, the first living cell generated itself."

Then finally the next paragraph: "At this point a reader may begin to understand Dawkins' comment in the preface to his book: "This book should be read almost as though it were science fiction." But readers of the subject will find that his approach is not unique. Most other books on evolution also skim over the staggering problem of explaining the emergence of life from nonliving matter..."

Is the JW book saying that Dawkins believes his theories are fiction and therefore be treated as fiction? Of course not! It clearly states "A current evolutionary position on life's starting point" is in Dawkins' book. "Though admitting that such an accident was exceedingly improbable, he [Dawkins] maintains that it must nevertheless have happened." From the JW book references, it is clear that Dawkins believes it. But despite Dawkins' belief, it is still a fantastic story, which Dawkins admits [at least tangentially] is "almost as though it were science fiction".

So how is that a misrepresentation or lie??? If Dawkins had no intention at all that anything in his book could sound 'fictional', why on earth would he write that line?

It is YOU that is misrepresenting things. Perhaps if you would actually check the references YOU post and actually understood context, instead of just copy/paste something you read on the internet, you wouldn't look like a paranoid whiner. Get out from the field, you're not as good at making strawman arguments as you think.
 

Ojian

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[MENTION=2100]Ojian[/MENTION]Francis Hitching....
So he is referred to as an 'evolutionist' in that book. One problem...
He is not an evolutionist. He is a television scriptwriter.

Umm, you really need to read your own writing. Your reliance on copy/paste is clouding your logic.
An evolutionist is "a person who believe in or supports a theory of evolution". You yourself say later about Hitching: "He believes in evolution, the fact that it is happening."

You contradict yourself. I'm not surprised.

As to what else Hitching may be, I don't care. He could be Batman and it wouldn't matter. The quote in the JW book identifying him: "Francis Hitching, an evolutionist and author of the book The Neck of the Giraffe." That is true.

Ok, so... that's a lie. That is a flat out lie. Will you admit this was a lie and denounce what was done as something your sky god doesn't want you to do?

No, I will not. It is not a lie. Even you said so. :)

So here's one of the many quotes used of him in that book...
"What is the chance of even a simple protein molecule forming at random in an organic soup? Evolutionists acknowledge it to be only one in 10^113 (1 followed by 113 zeros). But any event that has one chance in just 10^50 is dismissed by mathematicians as never happening. An idea of the odds, or probability, involved is seen in the fact that the number 10^113 is larger than the estimated total number of all the atoms in the universe!"

No, it is not. It is not a quote. Francis Hitching in his book did not state those precise words. The idea expressed above is in Hiching's book, but the quote is not. Learn to be more precise with your accusations.

Ok, so, first things first... J. Francis Hitching is not an evolutionist.
Untrue. see above and your own words below.
He is not a scientist.
Irrelevant and an Appeal to Authority.

Second... that's not even his quote!!!!
Ya, we know. (see above). Plus, if it is not even his quote, what are you complaining about?
Geez, you waffle more than Eggo.

Your religion's book says it was from J. Francis Hitchings's book The Neck of the Giraffe
No, it does not. It doesn't present it as a quote nor attribute it to anyone. If you actually checked your references for accuracy, you would know this. Stop being lazy.

You think a legitimate, peer reviewed science book is plagiarizing laughable fundamentalist Christian creationist books, and passing it off as legitimate science???

Wait a minute! So two lines ago you are saying that Hitching is not a scientist. Then you are calling his book a legitimate, peer reviewed science book?

Wow. The way your mind must spin. I think I'm going to need dramamine if we continue this.

And then to top that whole thing off altogether... that entire quote is completely made up!!! Every sentence in that quote is beyond false, incorrect, and not anything any scientist believes, and contradicts with everything that has been reported... I could list all the ways in which that quote is wrong right now, but I'm trying to keep this fairly short.
We'll the quote could be made up, but the idea isn't. More modern research has changed some of the numbers, but that hasn't made it any easier for Neo-Darwinian evolution. Don't worry about going long, I would love to see your list.

I'm still not done!!!!

Oh Goodee!!!

He's passed off as something he is not, an evolutionist, because he says things that serves your agenda, but... and dear god, this is where this gets REALLY hilarious... he actually DOESN'T support your agenda!! Yes, that's right... the guy whose job your religion's book lied about... you guys quotemined HIM!!!!!!
Well, I do not think you know my agenda. But whether Hitching supports it or not...I don't care. It is irrelevant. You seem to think that if someone is quoted as a reference, the beliefs between the quoter and the quotee have to be the same. They do not. A reference is merely a source of information or data.

"For all its acceptance in the scientific world as the great unifying principle of biology, Darwinism, after a century and a quarter, is in a surprising amount of trouble"

Here is what he actually believes, from his book The Neck of the Giraffe

"Evolution and Darwinism are often taken to mean the same thing. But they don't. Evolution of life over a very long period of time is a fact, if we are to believe evidence gathered during the last two centuries from geology, paleontology (the study of fossils), molecular biology and many other scientific disciplines. Despite the many believers in Divine creation who dispute this (including about half the adult population of the United States, according to some opinion polls), the probability that evolution has occurred approaches certainty in scientific terms"

He believes in evolution, the fact that it is happening... he disagrees with darwinism, the way in which evolution is carried out. Anybody who spends more than a few minutes with The Neck of the Giraffe can see that. On top of all that... he regularly mocks what he calls "fundamentalist creationists"!!!!!

Dear Lord you are dense.
You yourself can see and admit that Hitching is an evolutionist, HE BELIEVES IN EVOLUTION!!!

And here in his quote, Hitching is making a distinction between the words Evolution and Darwinism. I applaud him for that, because usually people conflate the two terms meanings. (In fact, the JW book does conflate them as is commonly done. But it that case it is not really a problem because the book is consistent with the meaning of the terms and defines "evolution" to mean basically the concept of Darwinism/Neo-Darwinism. In that way it is also consistent in the use of Hitching's quote) Hitching is using "evolution" in the sense of change over time. And, as you state, he doesn't believe that Darwinism is the method.

Now if you had actually been paying attention to my earlier posts, you would realize.....!!!NEWS FLASH!!!... I agree with him. I believe that evolution='change over time' happens. I even believe that some of that change is due to processes such as M+NS. But I do not believe that Neo-Darwinian processes explain all of life's changes. And here is another !!NEWS FLASH!! for you.... I am not a creationist!

I actually could not care less about Hitching's endorsements or lack of endorsements, or whether Dawkins or Gould had any dealing with him or their opinion of Hitching. Hitching's book is not the basis of my belief, and neither is it the foundation of the JW book.

So... do you denounce the clear and inarguable lies that your religion's book made? Is this something your religion's god wants you to do?

No and No.

Or are you, despite what you claim... just like every other religion, you all operate the same, and if you're anything like prior people I've confronted about this... you're going to disappear, never to be heard from again.

Or are you like every other person with a chip on his shoulder and out for a witchhunt, going to continue with your strawman arguments and poor understanding of the references. You complain about religion, but I think you are just projecting.

Go find something original that is actually a challenge. I'm still here.
 

Coriolis

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A brief graphical aside might be appropriate:

trollyoday.jpg
 
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