jenocyde
half mystic, half skeksis
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2009
- Messages
- 6,387
- MBTI Type
- ENTP
- Enneagram
- 7w8
Thanks for taking the time to sit down and read through my whole post!
I think we are not speaking of the same thing. I don't need to understand every detail of why you are feeling sad in order to comfort you - I just need to understand that from your point of view, this makes you sad. Because I am empathetic, I can recognize that sadness and then I have the appropriate response of care/concern. I don't have to share in your sadness - that would be sympathy.
I've been often accused of faking emotions and I once never have (except that one time I got pulled over for speeding, but that's a different story). I don't express them the same way, but that doesn't mean that I don't feel them.
If it makes it easier for you to understand it like that. I see it as the next step in a chain. You must learn the notes in order to play chords. Many learn the notes but never become skilled musicians. Both processes are learned, however.
Everything is a possibility, I won't deny that. But when people project their feelings, it makes me nauseous. If you've read my previous threads, you'll know that nothing irritates me more than being told by someone else how I feel. (please note, I am not irritated with you now, at all!) My reason is simple. I know what it is to feel. Believe me, I do. But some people believe that because I don't react the same way that they would, that I am devoid of feeling. We all are sensitive to different things. Some are sensitive to harsh language - I am not.
For example, I got quite a few notes expressing sympathy for the way someone spoke to me in a thread. They were shocked and offended on my behalf. Believe me, I was not offended. I know this because I know what being offended feels like and this was not it. I felt inspired, competitive, challenged and a bit of amusement. It doesn't matter how much I have explained that, some choose to simply not believe me. They believe that I am denying what I really feel - and that's what offends me, the self-righteousness.
Also, the fact that I can't always verbalize the terms doesn't mean that I don't feel it. There are definitely times when people have helped me label my emotions, but I feel them regardless of whether I name them or not. It's just easier for me to call the feeling "good", "bad", or "uncomfortable".
In my own personal life, I've been tormented by family and friends who believe that, as a woman, I have failed them in my "lack" of emotional responsiveness. It has taken me a long time to realize that I am not broken and that it is ok to be me. My family did not do this to hurt me, but they simply did not understand me and made no effort to. I can assure you that I am being true to myself, and I have a great need to do so. My honesty is forthright, and I believe that anyone who holds back because they want to spare someone else's feelings is not being true to themselves. Do you see how these perceptions can be dangerous if I were a parent to a more harmonious minded, sensitive child?
I am not as sensitive to certain things as other people are. Some people are sensitive to the cold, some to the heat... but we all know what hot and cold are.
I don't always feel the need to show every emotion that I feel, but I am very empathetic. Sympathy is harder for me, but in reality, it's hard for most people. If it were easy, no one would ever leave the house due to how much suffering surrounds us on a daily basis.
That's because you are judging according to your values and you believe that others are like you. Victor is correct in his assessment. A torturer must know that a certain action will cause a certain emotional or physical sensation. S/he must also know that this sensation will be unpleasant. S/he does not have to feel that unpleasant sensation in order to know it exists. This is empathy and it is learned. It is learned, along with sympathy. Sympathy is what would stop someone from torturing. Neither process is inherent, they must be learned.
When a child is 1.5 years old, he will pull your hair not knowing that it can hurt you. This is simply because he is not aware that you are a separate entity. Once he is taught that you are separate, then he must be taught that you feel things. Then he is taught to identify and express those feelings with verbal and vocal cues. Then he mimics those cues. (Actually, mimicking comes earlier, but the awareness of it happens around this time). No one is born with this knowledge. Some learn it faster than others, but life is like that. Some struggle with math, some just "get it".
After thinking about this overnight I think that there can be sympathy in emotional level without really understanding in thinking level where the other person stands. I mean, there can be emotional response without really understanding the situation where the person can be. I know few people who are like that, they can be very comforting to you when you feel down but you can see from their actions/words afterwards that they didn't really understand why you were feeling down.
I think we are not speaking of the same thing. I don't need to understand every detail of why you are feeling sad in order to comfort you - I just need to understand that from your point of view, this makes you sad. Because I am empathetic, I can recognize that sadness and then I have the appropriate response of care/concern. I don't have to share in your sadness - that would be sympathy.
I think these emotional responses are very correct many times. I have noticed that myself, I don't react people who fake emotions. I see the emotion in them but I don't feel it. I those case there is no emotional response even the outer signs show it. It's like half of the pieces are missing in a puzzle. So, the "uncouncious" (meaning here that non rational, the intuitive) emotional reactions are very correct and people should really trust them.
I've been often accused of faking emotions and I once never have (except that one time I got pulled over for speeding, but that's a different story). I don't express them the same way, but that doesn't mean that I don't feel them.
So, according to this thread, empathy is more thinking related and sympathy is more emotional-related stuff.
If it makes it easier for you to understand it like that. I see it as the next step in a chain. You must learn the notes in order to play chords. Many learn the notes but never become skilled musicians. Both processes are learned, however.
Maybe they feel something you aren't recognizing in yourself? I've seen that many T's aren't really connected with their emotional side (and I don't mean empathy here). Even with the strongest emotions, some of the strong T's arent' able to even notice the feeling (even if the people around them do see it very clearly) and don't figure out why they are feeling that way.
Everything is a possibility, I won't deny that. But when people project their feelings, it makes me nauseous. If you've read my previous threads, you'll know that nothing irritates me more than being told by someone else how I feel. (please note, I am not irritated with you now, at all!) My reason is simple. I know what it is to feel. Believe me, I do. But some people believe that because I don't react the same way that they would, that I am devoid of feeling. We all are sensitive to different things. Some are sensitive to harsh language - I am not.
For example, I got quite a few notes expressing sympathy for the way someone spoke to me in a thread. They were shocked and offended on my behalf. Believe me, I was not offended. I know this because I know what being offended feels like and this was not it. I felt inspired, competitive, challenged and a bit of amusement. It doesn't matter how much I have explained that, some choose to simply not believe me. They believe that I am denying what I really feel - and that's what offends me, the self-righteousness.
Also, the fact that I can't always verbalize the terms doesn't mean that I don't feel it. There are definitely times when people have helped me label my emotions, but I feel them regardless of whether I name them or not. It's just easier for me to call the feeling "good", "bad", or "uncomfortable".
But still, I say that some "features" in people are inborn. I say this because after observing my 3 children and seeing the one born with strong thinking but with little empathy (I've tried to teach this to my children) and very unattached to emotional side, the other one born with deep need to be true to self, the reserveness to people and the deep empathy that is not shown to outer world and the third one with huge emotional precence, with loads of empathy and sympathy towards others, the energetic presence that the other children lack.
In my own personal life, I've been tormented by family and friends who believe that, as a woman, I have failed them in my "lack" of emotional responsiveness. It has taken me a long time to realize that I am not broken and that it is ok to be me. My family did not do this to hurt me, but they simply did not understand me and made no effort to. I can assure you that I am being true to myself, and I have a great need to do so. My honesty is forthright, and I believe that anyone who holds back because they want to spare someone else's feelings is not being true to themselves. Do you see how these perceptions can be dangerous if I were a parent to a more harmonious minded, sensitive child?
I am not as sensitive to certain things as other people are. Some people are sensitive to the cold, some to the heat... but we all know what hot and cold are.
I don't always feel the need to show every emotion that I feel, but I am very empathetic. Sympathy is harder for me, but in reality, it's hard for most people. If it were easy, no one would ever leave the house due to how much suffering surrounds us on a daily basis.
That's empathizing. How would you feel? Would you like it? Even without feeling the pain emotionally it would be impossible to be empathic when torturing.
That's because you are judging according to your values and you believe that others are like you. Victor is correct in his assessment. A torturer must know that a certain action will cause a certain emotional or physical sensation. S/he must also know that this sensation will be unpleasant. S/he does not have to feel that unpleasant sensation in order to know it exists. This is empathy and it is learned. It is learned, along with sympathy. Sympathy is what would stop someone from torturing. Neither process is inherent, they must be learned.
When a child is 1.5 years old, he will pull your hair not knowing that it can hurt you. This is simply because he is not aware that you are a separate entity. Once he is taught that you are separate, then he must be taught that you feel things. Then he is taught to identify and express those feelings with verbal and vocal cues. Then he mimics those cues. (Actually, mimicking comes earlier, but the awareness of it happens around this time). No one is born with this knowledge. Some learn it faster than others, but life is like that. Some struggle with math, some just "get it".