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  1. #41
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Wrong according to who? There can be multiple different definitions for words used in different contexts. Your attempts are starting to be so pathetic that its getting boring
    Then leave the thread.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #42
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    In socionics, the strongest unconscious function for ISTJ (ISTp) is Ti. Does this relate to what you are saying?

  3. #43
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    In socionics, the strongest unconscious function for ISTJ (ISTp) is Ti. Does this relate to what you are saying?
    Strong as in it's hard to bend, or strong as in you can bend it without worrying that it's going to break?

  4. #44
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    Strong as in it's hard to bend, or strong as in you can bend it without worrying that it's going to break?
    Ummmmmm

    Both

  5. #45
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    In socionics, the strongest unconscious function for ISTJ (ISTp) is Ti. Does this relate to what you are saying?
    Jung had 2 axes that make up a type. The S - N axis and the T - F axis. Someone who is NT, for example, develops an effective grasp of Ni, Ne, Ti, and Te, despite the fact that their ego is oriented towards one of the intuition functions and one of the thinking functions (with introvert and extrovert flipped between them). So yes, this is in socionics, but it's originally Jung, so (for the record) making the association to socionics could become a straw-man if people try to use it to suggest it's incompatible with theories derived from Jung, such as MBTI. This is not the case.

  6. #46
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    Jung had 2 axes that make up a type. The S - N axis and the T - F axis. Someone who is NT, for example, develops an effective grasp of Ni, Ne, Ti, and Te, despite the fact that their ego is oriented towards one of the intuition functions and one of the thinking functions (with introvert and extrovert flipped between them). So yes, this is in socionics, but it's originally Jung
    First, I assume you mean one of the perceiving functions and one of the judging functions.

    Second, Jung didn't believe "introvert and extravert" were "flipped" between the dominant and auxiliary functions. He thought the same "conscious attitude" applied to both the dominant function and — to the extent that a second function was differentiated and became "a co-determining influence" in the subject's "consciousness" — the auxiliary function, and you can read more about that in this post and the post that follows it.

    Jung's function stack for a Ti-dom with an N-aux was Ti-Ni-Se-Fe.

    Myers flipped the attitude of the aux (while admitting that was contrary to the view of almost all Jung scholars), so her function stack was Ti-Ne-Se-Fe.

    A true nobody named Harold Grant subsequently flipped the attitude of the tertiary, leading to the Ti-Ne-Si-Fe function stack later adopted by most of the 90s cognitive functions featherweights (e.g., Berens and Nardi) and beloved by hordes of bamboozled internet forumites.

    I hope this clears things up.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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  8. #48
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    When Fe-aux bends inward, it stops focusing on the needs of others and focuses on its own needs: to be loved and taken care of emotionally by others. Fe-aux bent inwards develops a sense of personal entitlement.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #49
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    First, I assume you mean one of the perceiving functions and one of the judging functions.

    Second, Jung didn't believe "introvert and extravert" were "flipped" between the dominant and auxiliary functions. He thought the same "conscious attitude" applied to both the dominant function and — to the extent that a second function was differentiated and became "a co-determining influence" in the subject's "consciousness" — the auxiliary function, and you can read more about that in this post and the post that follows it.

    Jung's function stack for a Ti-dom with an N-aux was Ti-Ni-Se-Fe.

    Myers flipped the attitude of the aux (while admitting that was contrary to the view of almost all Jung scholars), so her function stack was Ti-Ne-Se-Fe.

    A true nobody named Harold Grant subsequently flipped the attitude of the tertiary, leading to the Ti-Ne-Si-Fe function stack later adopted by most of the 90s cognitive functions featherweights (e.g., Berens and Nardi) and beloved by hordes of bamboozled internet forumites.

    I hope this clears things up.
    And I hope we've moved beyond Jung.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #50
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    And I hope we've moved beyond Jung.
    Myers had already moved well beyond Jung by the end of the 1950s. Buuut...

    Because I'm a pretty big believer in the MBTI, and because a lot of what ended up in the Myers-Briggs typology had its roots in Jung, and maybe especially because the function-centric MBTI theorists and their internet forum followers are inclined to give Jung's perspective — or at least what they think (or claim to think) was Jung's perspective — a lot of weight, I often find myself talking about what Jung's views were on X, Y or Z, and often in cases where my own views are substantially different.

    I think the Harold Grant functions model, and "type dynamics," would have a lot fewer internet forum followers if more people realized that, besides not having any respectable scientific support (very much unlike the MBTI dichotomies), that functions model is also a long ways from Jung's model — so it can't even claim any credibility on the grounds that, data be damned, Jung was a fooking genius who truly saw through to the depths of the human soul.

    Who knows? Maybe you'll wake up one of these days and stop going on about the "auxiliary function."

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