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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Yea this is a very good way to explain Ni. The taking things apart and puting them back together the way it makes sense to me is what i am doing all the time
    that's pretty much my interpretation of Ni as well - i imagine the Ni lense to be very similar to this sort of visual analysis


    taking the variables, putting them as patterns within patterns, breaking them apart and putting them together into larger patterns. the "future thinking" of most Ni users seems to follow a common pattern - that is finding a set of interacting variables resulting in a curve and predicting that they will maintain trajectory (ray'z kursweil, an INTJ in every sense of the word that i know @superunknown knows about is a great example - since he exposes his lines of thinking in a very naive "why doesn't everyone else think in the same ways" sort of way). while Ne is very much like a DNA algorithm mixing & meshing the variables together into various forms - Ni functions like an neural network algorithm keeping the variables boxed apart and examining the inner connecting lines & relations.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I recently encountered this link on another site: http://www.celebritytypes.com/blog/2...-as-an-s-type/ The author of that article argues that Jung considered Newton to be an S type. More specifically, he described Newton as "concretistic".

    It makes sense, if you think about it: it isn't obvious to most people how intuition plays out in INTJs, especially once an INTJ has figured out how to translate ideas into math and language. Most everything an INTJ tends to talk about is more or less concrete; they don't tend to divulge their really crazy ideas or their feelings and impressions.

    In Newton's case, I don't think Jung is employing a very deep knowledge of who Newton was and what he did. Consider his religious writings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_N...eligious_views. These are not the thoughts of an Si type, in our more modern parlance: he takes religious ideas apart and puts them back together in a way that makes sense to him. This is the main thing I sense as an "Ni vibe" from others, this notion of re-synthesizing ideas, even "re-inventing the wheel" so to speak. That's how Newton did his physics: he took what was already known, and re-synthesized it so that it made sense to him. And since he was something of a genius, it turned out to make sense to most of the rest of the world, too, and became the foundation of modern physics.

    What matters isn't whether so-and-so is or isn't an ISTJ or INTJ. What matters is having a shared understanding of the typology being used. As noted and acknowledged earlier in this thread, Jung's typology isn't about the functions we talk about on typology forums. The latter is derived from the former, but is not the same thing. I would guess that if Jung met Newton in person, he'd type Newton as an "introverted thinker," by which he would not mean what we mean in our derived typology by "Ti", but something more along the lines of the MBTI-ish code of "INTx".
    ""This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fanciful men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, and by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail.""

    Newton's sense-fueled rant on why Ni is not his preferred flavor of cognition. Put succinctly, "it comes when it comes". More:

    "Newton expressed his belief that Bible prophecy would not be understood 'until the time of the end', and that even then 'none of the wicked shall understand'."

    More thoughts on preference of sensation over intuition, to wait for apocalyptic scenarios to even make sense of it, rather than relying on conjured information that he rationed could never be truly understood without experiencing it. Did you read this page at all? Now, scholars on why Newton is not an intuitor:

    "Newton and Boyle's mechanical philosophy was promoted by rationalist pamphleteers as a viable alternative to the pantheists and enthusiasts..."

    More expression of mechanical reality over intution's "a priori" flavor of the day.

    "Newton's view has been considered to be close to deism and several biographers and scholars labeled him as a deist who is strongly influenced by Christianity."

    Jung pegged Se for atheism, and deism was about as close as you came in the 17th century.

    Need I go on? He was completely absorbed by the physical world. It's not that intuitors aren't either, they just tend to take a less scientific approach to their generation of knowledge.

  3. #33
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    @Mane

    Yea, that's a great way of putting it too: "keeping the variables boxed apart and examining the inner connecting lines & relations."

    It's like it's more than just noticing patterns, I think both Ne and Ni notice patterns. But this is what Ni does with those patterns.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Yea this is a very good way to explain Ni. The taking things apart and puting them back together the way it makes sense to me is what i am doing all the time
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that's pretty much my interpretation of Ni as well - i imagine the Ni lense to be very similar to this sort of visual analysis


    taking the variables, putting them as patterns within patterns, breaking them apart and putting them together into larger patterns. the "future thinking" of most Ni users seems to follow a common pattern - that is finding a set of interacting variables resulting in a curve and predicting that they will maintain trajectory (ray'z kursweil, an INTJ in every sense of the word that i know @superunknown knows about is a great example - since he exposes his lines of thinking in a very naive "why doesn't everyone else think in the same ways" sort of way). while Ne is very much like a DNA algorithm mixing & meshing the variables together into various forms - Ni functions like an neural network algorithm keeping the variables boxed apart and examining the inner connecting lines & relations.
    The bolded is far more indicative of a rational function than an irrational function. Rational functions are directors, they direct information into utility. The irrational functions are victims of circumstance, but still levy an attitude against experience. And yeah, definitely, regarding that statement being indicative of INTJ perceptions.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    The bolded is far more indicative of a rational function than an irrational function.
    not necessarily - we're talking about patterns, essentially a game of refitting the perceived silhouette's around the data. in order for them to function independently and interact with one another as patterns - for the data to be reconfigured into them (Ni) or for them to get data from completely different patterns altogether (Ne), they have to be able to exist within the mind independently of the data, essentially rejecting the experience in which they were perceived - pointers to null objects. that irrational rejection of the data doesn't suggest a rational function at all.

  6. #36
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    Where is my dissection, betch?

  7. #37
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Default superunknown on the functions

    @Mane when u say "rejecting the experience they percieve" do u mean that Ni is not in the here and now? Cause thats def. What Ni does: ignores and rejects the here n now
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    not necessarily - we're talking about patterns, essentially a game of refitting the perceived silhouette's around the data. in order for them to function independently and interact with one another as patterns - for the data to be reconfigured into them (Ni) or for them to get data from completely different patterns altogether (Ne), they have to be able to exist within the mind independently of the data, essentially rejecting the experience in which they were perceived - pointers to null objects. that irrational rejection of the data doesn't suggest a rational function at all.
    I can see what you mean better with this post.

    Revisiting the original material I quoted, it seems to be suggesting Ne and Ni are conscious efforts of the mind, particularly the "taking and breaking apart" statements. The irrational functions are not wholly capable of the aforementioned feat - particularly not extraverted intuition or sensation. In regards to this fact (Jung is speaking of both Se and Ne simultaneously, exclusively):

    "Their perception is concerned with simple happenings, where no selection has been exercised by the judgment. In this respect both the latter types have a considerable superiority over the two judging types. The objective occurrence is both law-determined and accidental. In so far as it is law-determined, it is accessible to reason; in so far as it is accidental, it is not."

    These two types are not ruled by the process of extrapolation of information like you get with the six other functions (might be giving Te and Fe too much credit). It is when you combine them with, say, introverted thinking... this is where the extrapolation and projection of patterns will stem from. I have an Ne brother that couldn't extrapolate a pattern if it popped out from the data and slapped him across the face. I should say, the talent does manifest in his creative endeavors - he is highly manipulative of variables in given systems, which really shines through in games where creative influence predominates the landscape - LittleBigPlanet, Minecraft, Terraria, etc.

    In comparison of the other two irrational functions, Si and Ni are like living in the shadows of these perceptions. There is an inherent 'darkening' of perception already scribed deep inside the consciousness. This attitude inherently morphs the perceptions the rational functions have access to reason with, which is why that quote I chose by Jung is not applicable to them, and why he does not attribute it to them - all perception serves the psyche at an intrinsic level, opposed to serving the simple act of perception.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by momental View Post
    Where is my dissection, betch?
    These things do not come to me easily! I planned on doing senza next, but since you've so politely inquired, largely ripped from your blog:

    Quote Originally Posted by momental
    I have come to realize that Psychology does not have the boundaries I need. To think that the answer to a question is so polar, that one action has two completely opposite origins is too frustrating.

    I do realize that you may not always have the correct origin in diagnosing a patient physically, but once you have the mass etc. you can trust in that proof.
    Charles Darwin comes to mind. I wonder of your alignment towards politics, and the act of politicking in general...

    Quote Originally Posted by momental
    I do believe though that my opinions on most matters are irrelevant and as such my character does not come out. If you were to look at the blog previous to this one you would find all my angst piled into thousands of posts.

    I am not sure if I have it in me to explain myself anymore as I don't think it is as important. This place is my grounds to spar. I do wish to let everyone know I appreciate their thoughts on the subjects of this forum.
    More self-perception of Te? Prior, a mention of brute strength being your 'finesse' was made, an attribute Jung fairly equates to the function...

    And I see you have once made an affirmation of your enneagram six-ness, on top of senza's abnormally keen judge of perception. I do believe it is a type reserved for Si/Ni users, moreso the latter - though of course, not explicitly.

    Quote Originally Posted by momental
    This urge to be right needs to be removed and replaced with the desire (and has been) to be competent.

    I was entirely to confined and completely absurd to limit myself to being "right".

    This shift is quintessential in my growth and the growth of us as a human race.

    I wish to become necessary.
    Perhaps indicative of Te/Ni-Ni/Te, as opposed to explicitly Te, particularly the desire to be necessary... if you've been keeping up with my thoughts on Ni, I very much believe it to be a 'martyr' function, to project with fair frequency an ego-centric position, constantly working to some form of a personalized end goal. Think Che Guevara, if you've ever read anything of his.

    There's also some Se in there. Maybe I will revisit the subject, mind is fried.

    As far as interpersonal interactions go, I really do have very limited experience with you. This quote was the first to come to mind when you asked to be assessed, qualities Jung attributes to both Si and Ni:

    "The two types just depicted are almost inaccessible to external judgment. Because they are introverted and have in consequence a somewhat meagre capacity or willingness for expression, they offer but a frail handle for a telling criticism."

    Also, I can't find the specific quote, but take this, regarding Ni:

    "Therewith he also deprives himself of any influence upon it, because he remains unintelligible. His language is not that which is commonly spoken -- it becomes too subjective. His argument lacks convincing reason. He can only confess or pronounce. His is the 'voice of one crying in the wilderness'."

    I can think of several users of Ni around the site that this may apply to. I don't wholly think it's you. I think you are much more aligned with the rational dominance of a Te user, but I may likely err you to the side of Ni over Si - your blog, the expressions in general - have dabs of that intangible characteristic introverted intuition is known for expressing.

    I wonder of your notions on spirituality, particularly as an (I'm presuming) atheist...

    Again, all of this is kind of me extrapolating information willy-nilly at whatever I can find. I truly do not 'know' you in any form, and particularly for myself, I rarely feel I 'know' anything...

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    "Their perception is concerned with simple happenings, where no selection has been exercised by the judgment. In this respect both the latter types have a considerable superiority over the two judging types. The objective occurrence is both law-determined and accidental. In so far as it is law-determined, it is accessible to reason; in so far as it is accidental, it is not."
    this is true to some affect - Ne & Se are inherently incapable of "choice" - which is why P's use their Ji for filtration.

    i suppose i can rebuttal jung and say that to some extent they can be shaped willingly over time through diversifying and picking what experiences you get exposed too in order to determine what data/patterns persist within your Se/Ne maps - for example my own description of N functions as null point pointers might not have come if i wasn't studying a subset of software engineering - but of course that's not a natural format for what we normally consider to be "choice".

    but i don't know how you can extend this to an incapacity for pattern extrapolation - mind you the irony that we're both Pe users and are extrapolating patterns right now - but i will still make the point that Ne couldn't function without pattern extrapolation at all:

    take an Ne child on a boat - as he gets closer to the harbor his brain might conjure that the lighthouse is a dragon spinning on a gigantic lazy susan: his brain extrapolated the behavioral pattern of a spinning source of light, took the very general silhouette's of fire as a source of light, and looked for something which has fire coming sideways from the head - in each of those stages he had to extrapolate the patterns and reject the details. while it might look like he chose a dragon and not a cage full of fireflies - the appearance of selection in the process isn't really a choice - it's a pattern matchmaking game, his brain didn't register the tower so he didn't look for what can be at the top of the tower, thus looking for a pattern to match the elevated position of the light source. the cognitive game of Ne is essentially one of extrapolated patterns interacting - without doing so you would end up with merely solid mental objects that can't quite fit (Se) - you would end up with a lighthouse that is a lighthouse - it can't be a dragon sitting on a lazy susan because duh - it's a lighthouse.

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