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  1. #11
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Usually I just view functioning order like this,

    Dominant, Auxillary, Tertiary, 'Shadows', Inferior in terms of preference. I don't really pay too much attention to the idea that certain functions in certain positions must activate in this manner. I just hold the general opinion that the functions support the overall mindset of an individual (which is usually categorised by their dominant-auxillary).

    Even then, I'm not sure if it's just reporting bias/coincidence that my tertiary just happens to be my third preference given that there are many ISFJs who would choose another function over Ti. But overall I've found the idea of tertiary temptation appealing as a theory in explaining my upbringing. I do like the idea of what Rasofy had suggested and I could see it holding true quite a fair bit.

    It'd be interesting to examine whether most people actually have a preference for their tertiary over the other equivalent counterpart. IFJs - Ti over Te, IFPs - Ni over Ne and so forth. Otherwise we're just entering really sketchy grounds that can't be really examined at all.

    Edit: Just looking at previous threads (Function orders), it just seems all over the place. I probably now hold the opinions that it might just be a very descriptive evaluation of an individual. You can see how they all intermingle together to form an individual.

    For example I just did my own test again... and well... I still identify with Fe but it's definitely manifested differently in comparison to other ISFJs.

    extraverted Sensing (Se) ******************** (20.7)
    limited use
    introverted Sensing (Si) ************************************** (38)
    excellent use
    extraverted Intuiting (Ne) *********************** (23)
    limited use
    introverted Intuiting (Ni) ************************ (24.5)
    average use
    extraverted Thinking (Te) **************************** (28.6)
    average use
    introverted Thinking (Ti) ********************************** (34.7)
    good use
    extraverted Feeling (Fe) **************************** (28.9)
    average use
    introverted Feeling (Fi) ***************************************** (41)
    excellent use
    Overall I do think it weakens MBTI as a theory, but I think I still identify enough with other ISFJs as an overall entity for it to exist. It just means there's a lot more subtypes of a particular type than the initial idea of 16 categories...

  2. #12
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    This specific test has badly written questions about Fi. Pretty much everyone gets high results on it.

    I remember reading that "shadow functions are only used reluctantly and with much difficulty". This seems to apply well to me. I don't tend to naturally use Te and I'm pretty bad when I have to organize things. Ni I still don't understand what it's really about, but I clearly don't have any "visionary / prediction" talent. As for Se... I don't believe I can accurately comment how pathetic I am with this function.
    Fi appears to be an exception. But that's because in my opinion Ti and Fi and closely related.

    "Shadow functions" make less sense when we venture into tertiary and inferior functions, because even the corresponding dominant functions aren't used much to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    The idea that we're actually accessing all the functions will certainly be a problem for the "I hate, loathe and despise Fe - it is a vile piece of slime on the face of the universe" squad!
    See, it takes a strong Fi to make such a powerful statement. Proof that both functions aren't used equally!
    However there are also other factors that can make you "seem" to use a function more than you should. Insecure and fearful people might appear to use Fe, but that could be only because they'd rather accomodate with other people than risk harm to themselves.

  3. #13
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    The shadow functions are something I've been wondering about for a long time. It seems like the top four all have a very clear influence. The rest are sort of just there - not particularly important. They represent something a bit foreign to me. I think they are present and we may use them from time to time but they just aren't that significant in our cognitive make-up.

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  4. #14
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nales View Post
    This specific test has badly written questions about Fi. Pretty much everyone gets high results on it.
    Definitely. The Fe questions aren't that great either.

    I remember reading that "shadow functions are only used reluctantly and with much difficulty". This seems to apply well to me. I don't tend to naturally use Te and I'm pretty bad when I have to organize things. Ni I still don't understand what it's really about, but I clearly don't have any "visionary / prediction" talent. As for Se... I don't believe I can accurately comment how pathetic I am with this function.
    Fi appears to be an exception. But that's because in my opinion Ti and Fi and closely related.

    "Shadow functions" make less sense when we venture into tertiary and inferior functions, because even the corresponding dominant functions aren't used much to begin with.
    I'm starting to think this is applies mostly with the Judging functions but doesn't really matter with Perceiving functions. Reason being that we're constantly coming across individuals who score highly on Si and Se, or Ni and Ne. But less so for Te and Ti or Fe with Fi (Taking into consideration the test is flawed)... It wouldn't really conflict with the idea that as we are needing to actively engage in specific mindset that reflects judging functions, it's a lot more difficult than perceiving functions...

    You think that the tertiary function has a major influence. Only to discover that while most ITJs have a strong preference for Fi over Fe. The reverse isn't actually true, there are countless of IFJs with a preference for Te over Ti and so fourth. It just weakens the idea that they are reluctant to engage and all that.

    Honestly, I'm tempted to throw the whole system out nearly. It still serves as a nice descriptive element (each contain particular traits), but the whole interaction with each other effect can be interpreted so differently by many individuals.

  5. #15
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I think tertiary is a bit overrated around here. It seems like people like to ascribe more to that than the two dominant attitudes. In my case, I think I suppress a lot Ni related thoughts. If I read too much into things, I get kooky. Best not to act on it. As for shadow, I don't hate Fe. I just don't want to bother with it or participate in groups or activities that require that I bend that way or require that level of expression. I don't really know how anyways. I think there's a part of me though that values it, whether I like it or not. It's like the monkey from Family Guy, pointing at me from a corner, telling me I'm a social and moral fuckup. I used to think it was Fi, because there's a strong moral element in this finger wagging. But I don't think it's Fi now... I realized that I'm externalizing a lot of it. There's a pressure to live up to it, but I have a quick breaking point.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    when we talk orientations to different functions or treat functions as axes (e.g. SeNi axis versus SiNe axis), we may as well get a bunch of ideas out there and see which ones stick.
    just check the color-coded pattern from the cognitive function results, and i have noticed the same in the cognitive function results of other types...

    basically, it seems we have many people with a very high usage of functions in both the function's directions - Ne & Ni, Te & Ti, etc..

    i think this suggests that the direction (I-E) of a function is a gray area - that is, that Ne-Ni people (like myself) actually use their intuition a lot and that the intuition is somewhere between introverted and extraverted intuition.

  7. #17
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    just check the color-coded pattern from the cognitive function results, and i have noticed the same in the cognitive function results of other types...

    basically, it seems we have many people with a very high usage of functions in both the function's directions - Ne & Ni, Te & Ti, etc..

    i think this suggests that the direction (I-E) of a function is a gray area - that is, that Ne-Ni people (like myself) actually use their intuition a lot and that the intuition is somewhere between introverted and extraverted intuition.
    I don't see how you could be strong in both types of intuition. One explodes in multiple ways, one hones in on specifics. One is brainstorming, the other tinfoil hat visionary stuff.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I don't see how you could be strong in both types of intuition. One explodes in multiple ways, one hones in on specifics. One is brainstorming, the other tinfoil hat visionary stuff.
    that's redicules - it's like saying you don't know how i can be strong in both my capacity for sleep and my capacity for workouts because the opposite nature of the activities... my body is quite capable of both.

    so is my intuition apearently... at least by the definitions of the test.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    just check the color-coded pattern from the cognitive function results, and i have noticed the same in the cognitive function results of other types...

    basically, it seems we have many people with a very high usage of functions in both the function's directions - Ne & Ni, Te & Ti, etc..

    i think this suggests that the direction (I-E) of a function is a gray area - that is, that Ne-Ni people (like myself) actually use their intuition a lot and that the intuition is somewhere between introverted and extraverted intuition.
    God, yes; thank you. I have always identified with descriptions for both Ne and Ni. Whether or not I am actually reaally attuned to Ni in the way that Ni users are said to be is a different matter, but I would just go back to my principle of 'walks like a duck.' It's true that Ne and Ni are conceptually different; one is divergent and the other is convergent, so on and so forth. But the truth is that many of us identify with both, and we may as well reconcile reality with our theory. (On the other hand, it should be noted that some Ne-dominants do not identify with Ni at all.)

    I can say that I 'synthesize' Ni through Ne and Ti, or.. whatever, but why not just call it Ni? In general, why not call it being oriented to intuition? Why not call it something along the lines of openness? Socionics realizes that 'Ne users' can 'be attuned to Ni,' so why can't we as adherents of MBTI embrace that concept as well?

    Ni may not be an Ne user's default, primary way of navigating the world, but to claim that the so-called shadow functions are completely out of reach is ridiculous. To claim that they're out of conscious reach is less ridiculous, but still kinda ridiculous.

    This also indicates that the types ought to be defined by their default, primary ways of navigating the world, that they ought to strive for reaching beyond these primary ways, but that they should not be limited to these primary ways. For example, hardcore Ne-dominants may neglect thinking and feeling, and may very well repress sensing. (This means that, say, they may start enterprises without reaping their benefits or seeing them through.) Jung himself says as such. To me, they ought to recognize this and work on it.

    Same applies for all of the functions and types, of course.

  10. #20
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that's redicules - it's like saying you don't know how i can be strong in both my capacity for sleep and my capacity for workouts...
    My point is that they'd be working against each other. It's one thing to say the two types can follow and understand the other, but a different thing to prefer both at the same time. Ne doms don't seem to get tied down to a specific perception or meaning. They keep pursuing and indulge in possibilities. NJs are more focused.. and once they are focused, they'll take a dump on other possibilities. In their minds, they've already gone through them.

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