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  1. #1
    Ginkgo
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    Default You Don't "Use" Your Functions! (?)

    simulatedworld - "You don't 'use' your functions"

    What an interesting statement.

    I'm not exactly sure what prompted simulatedworld to make this assessment, but he recently made a post about it on another forum. I'm wondering if he said this because he observed many posters here claiming to 'use' functions that were supposedly out of their preferred orientation, or if he said this because of the connotation that the word "used" gives off - as if one uses their functions in the same way that one uses a hammer or a chair, or if there was some misunderstanding between him and other people. In any case, I'm trying to find out what the reality of the situation is.

    When I first heard this, I thought it was a minor detail about semantics that hardly pertained to the truth, but rather to how we communicate about it. Maybe the truth is found therein.

    I thought that maybe don't "use" functions as if we are consciously manipulating them, but instead we "use" functions in the same way that we use white blood cells in our bodies - subconsciously and out of our control. But then I reconsidered - because our functional orientations are in some ways conscious, are we not using them consciously? Ah! But if our functions shape the way we consciously perceive the world, then are our functions not "using" us? So I arrived at the conclusion that because, on some level, we are our functions, and our functions are us, the question of whether we can "use" them should be answered with a positive "yes", in the same way we can exploit ourselves, control our own actions, and exercise our free will.

    The primary problem lies within the understanding of "use".

    Any thoughts?

  2. #2
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    And then people wonder why mods have banned him.

  3. #3
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Your functions use you. Your functions shape your world. I'd try to think of it like your eyes. You can direct your eyes to things to look at, but what you ultimately see is what your eyes/brain choose to let you see.



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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Your functions use you. Your functions shape your world. I'd try to think of it like your eyes. You can direct your eyes to things to look at, but what you ultimately see is what your eyes/brain choose to let you see.
    That's intriguing.

    What are the ramifications of such a statement?
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    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Your functions use you. Your functions shape your world. I'd try to think of it like your eyes. You can direct your eyes to things to look at, but what you ultimately see is what your eyes/brain choose to let you see.
    I would take Simulatedworld's statement to mean this.
    Your functions just are. Using implies that some will was involved. I guess we can purposely use our functions. But 95% of the time we are not aware of what's going on in our brains- they are just doing their own job.
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    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Sim's ideas on how functions work overall seem extremely odd to me, I'm sure I'd be getting some amusement out of prodding him on the topic if he was actually around. Since he isn't though, and this question relates essentially to his own highly idiosyncratic functional and semantic definitions, do you think much can be gained by asking others what he might have meant?

    Personally if I was you I'd want to go straight to the horse's mouth on this one and try to hammer out what he actually meant by it rather than asking people here to speculate on his intent, which I don't see as being likely to get very far. If you can actually get a clear definition from him of what he means by it, I can happily criticise the definition, but trying to work out what might be going on inside Sim's head to make him come up with such statements in the first place is a bit beyond me, sorry!
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  7. #7
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what you mean. Most of what people regard as "function use" is simply cognitive ability that everyone has access to. What makes me a Ti "user" is the fact that my world is created in the image of Ti. I "see" everything as a system, as rules, etc. A Se "user" sees the world full of opportunity and experience. And so on.

    I've used the "use" nomenclature before, simply because everyone knows what I'm talking about when I do. But if we're going to analyze what functions really are, then no, I don't they are used by the individual, but the opposite.


    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Sim's ideas on how functions work overall seem extremely odd to me, I'm sure I'd be getting some amusement out of prodding him on the topic if he was actually around. Since he isn't though, and this question relates essentially to his own highly idiosyncratic functional and semantic definitions, do you think much can be gained by asking others what he might have meant?

    Personally if I was you I'd want to go straight to the horse's mouth on this one and try to hammer out what he actually meant by it rather than asking people here to speculate on his intent, which I don't see as being likely to get very far. If you can actually get a clear definition from him of what he means by it, I can happily criticise the definition, but trying to work out what might be going on inside Sim's head to make him come up with such statements in the first place is a bit beyond me, sorry!
    It's not difficult. If you read Psychological Types, you will understand Sim's viewpoint, as I think he's largely a Jungian at this point from what I've read of Sim's more recent thoughts. He also likes Lenore Thomson, though for the life of me I cannot figure out why.



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    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Your functions use you. Your functions shape your world. I'd try to think of it like your eyes. You can direct your eyes to things to look at, but what you ultimately see is what your eyes/brain choose to let you see.
    I prefer the spotlight/torchlight analogy myself, though I guess eyes work as well. You can widen and narrow your eyes as well in addition to focusing them on things.
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  9. #9
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Your functions use you. Your functions shape your world. I'd try to think of it like your eyes. You can direct your eyes to things to look at, but what you ultimately see is what your eyes/brain choose to let you see.
    Yes, they shape your world, along with a plethora of other factors like culture, learned behavior, and psychological disposition. Not to be confused with dictate.

  10. #10
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    It's not difficult. If you read Psychological Types, you will understand Sim's viewpoint, as I think he's largely a Jungian at this point from what I've read of Sim's more recent thoughts.
    Quite possibly, but I don't wish to simply project a standard Jungian perspective on the man who once insisted that he'd only ever experienced the Ni function during a bad psychedelic drugs trip. Certainly not without more information about what his, umm, unique perspective actually constitutes in this instance. There may be other things going on there that Jung never dreamed of in his wild mandala induced reveries, scary things...

    He also likes Lenore Thomson, though for the life of me I cannot figure out why.
    I find the brain lateralisation link to functions quite interesting, if scarcely conclusive Some of her typings for well known people are better than the standard ones too, so she must have something going for her. I was interested enough to want to read up a bit more anyway.
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