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  1. #31
    That chalkboard guy Matthew_Z's Avatar
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    What ever happened to the route of viewing any grouping system as valid in its proper context? There's no need to invalidate NF/NT/SJ/SP in order to validate EJ/EP/IJ/IP or vice versa. They all attempt to capture a facet of a type. Admittedly, NF/NT/SJ/SP is based more on observable behavior whilst EJ/EP/IJ/IP is based more on a person's psychological functioning with slightly less concern paid to behavior.
    If a deaf INFP falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

  2. #32
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    These are George Frisbie's "Sociability Temperaments". (I've heard he was critical of Keirsey's groupings) I don't know why those never caught on. They do apparently have some significance. At east one theorist, Brenda Mullins (Personality Page) suggests these are the first things to develop in a child, before the dominant function is even chosen.
    And for N types, they do coincide with the Interaction Styles.
    ET, IT, EF, IF is another grouping that might have some merit.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  3. #33
    Senior Member musttry's Avatar
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    I see the interest in reorganising groupings and this could be done a great many ways. However, you have to find the configuration that explains the similarities and differences the most. Ignoring how people perceive and decide in favour of whether it is introverted or extraverted does not fit well with MBTI. The whole point of this system is HOW people function to explain the output while enneagram groups people according to their output.

  4. #34
    Senior Member incubustribute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Now as far as I am concerned, any Myers Briggs derivative theory that claims that INTJs and ISFJs are in the same grouping will automatically get my scorn.
    See, this is the problem. I didn't ask for anyone's contempt, but critique is welcome as long as there is reasonable debate to show why my theory is complete shit -- or better yet -- if it can be improved upon. So far, you haven't shown a shred of evidence that discounts these groupings other than a seemingly arbitrarily chosen type loophole (INTJ vs. ISFJ). It is obvious to me that these two types are different on the basis of their function preferences, but you haven't really proven to me that you understand why Pi/Pe/Ji/Je are significant. If you would like, I could re-devise my structure to make 8 sub-groups instead of four, but where's the fun in that? Again, I spent a good deal of time considering these, and typing this all out was a lot of work so if you're going to critique, please do - I thrive on it, and we improve as people by learning from each other.

    I meant this to be a positive suggestion to be improved upon, so if someone will kindly get us back on topic, that would be great.

    I'm still waiting to hear more naming suggestions for the groups, I got a couple good ones from VagrantFarce, but it seems my "Leader" label didn't work too well because of the ESFJ.

  5. #35
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    There are tons and tons of examples all over reality and everywhere in real life, whether or not you can see them without someone pointing them out to you. Maybe if you'd ask for them before declaring this all totally worthless, people would be inclined to explain.
    Yeah I don't know SW, I've seen you do quite a bit of typing faux pas (did I spell that right? you can correct me if I didn't) to be preaching about your superior skills.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  6. #36
    Senior Member incubustribute's Avatar
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    ....and it seems I missed some good posts that WERE attempting to get back on topic...thanks guys, I'll get to you tomorrow. Keep commenting, whether I agree with you or not, I'm learning

  7. #37
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by incubustribute View Post
    See, this is the problem. I didn't ask for anyone's contempt, but critique is welcome as long as there is reasonable debate to show why my theory is complete shit
    Don't mind my harsh language... I'm going after SW's ass, not yours.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  8. #38
    Senior Member incubustribute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Don't mind my harsh language... I'm going after SW's ass, not yours.
    Just watch out for the downstairs mixup :eek:

  9. #39
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew_Z View Post
    What ever happened to the route of viewing any grouping system as valid in its proper context? There's no need to invalidate NF/NT/SJ/SP in order to validate EJ/EP/IJ/IP or vice versa. They all attempt to capture a facet of a type. Admittedly, NF/NT/SJ/SP is based more on observable behavior whilst EJ/EP/IJ/IP is based more on a person's psychological functioning with slightly less concern paid to behavior.
    I agree with this.


    To Incubustribute----

    The only problem I have with your theory is that the DESCRIPTORS don't seem to fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by incubustribute View Post

    IxxP - The Idealist
    IxxJ - The Learner
    ExxP - The Explorer
    ExxJ - The Leader
    These need a lot of work, in my opinion.

    But the reasoning behind the GROUPINGS makes perfect sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by incubustribute View Post

    The IxxP, by virtue of its functions, will use some form of Ji (introverted judging) as a dominant (leading) functional role. This could be Ti or Fi.

    The IxxJ, by virtue of its functions will use some form of Pi (introverted perception) as a leading role, either Si or Ni.

    The ExxP will use some form of Pe (extroverted perception) as its leading role, either Ne or Se.

    The ExxJ will use some form of Je (extroverted judging) as its lead role, either Te or Fe.
    I completely agree with all of that.

    But then you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by incubustribute View Post

    I believe knowing the lead role is very telling of one's type and is a better classification than what we use on the forum and what Kiersey proposed.
    While I agree that knowing the lead role is very telling of one's type, I don't agree that it's a better classification than the one Kiersey proposed.

    I think your theory is perfectly compatible with Kiersey's, but not better.

    As far as I'm concerned, if you can come up with some better DESCRIPTORS, then you actually have a great theory.
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  10. #40
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Yeah I don't know SW, I've seen you do quite a bit of typing faux pas (did I spell that right? you can correct me if I didn't) to be preaching about your superior skills.
    I'm not sure how you would know that given that you don't see any value whatsoever in the biggest component of the system I use (functions.)
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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