Functions: Xi vs. Xe

[Evan]

It seems like it doesn't make sense to think of the eight functions as entirely separate. Fe and Fi have overlap, Ti/Te, Ni/Ne, Si/Se.

So I propose that there are only four functions (not that this is completely new or anything). Thinking, Feeling, Sensing, and Intuition. There is a spectrum of Introversion to Extroversion for each function. It should not be thought of as binary.

In most cases, people significantly prefer one direction for each function, but there's no reason this should be true in all cases. It does make sense to me that Introversion in one P function leads to Extroversion in the other (same for J functions). But it's never going to be 100% Ni/0% Ne and 100% Se/0% Si. Thinking of Ne and Ni as separate ideas just seems misleading to me (true for all functions).

[Delphyne]

Fe and Fi are both concerned with the area of value judgements, but they can be rivals in determining what´s good and appropriate. Growing up with an ESFJ mother I can tell you that we often had different opinions regarding that area. Fe is concerned with the object, it has rules about social behavior, communication and tries to determine what´s good and appropriate for all people. Fi is concerned with the subject, it tries to feel the need of individuals and it´s judgements are more dependent on individual situations. Furthermore, Fe shows emotions to communicate. Fi does the same, but it´s much more discriminating. IFPs often perceive EFJs as too emotional and gushy whereas EFJs perceive IFPs as too cold and unfriendly.

There are huge differences between Fe and Fi, Ti/Te and so on.

[Jennifer]

Originally Posted by dissonance

In most cases, people significantly prefer one direction for each function, but there's no reason this should be true in all cases. It does make sense to me that Introversion in one P function leads to Extroversion in the other (same for J functions). But it's never going to be 100% Ni/0% Ne and 100% Se/0% Si. Thinking of Ne and Ni as separate ideas just seems misleading to me (true for all functions).

Aside from the issue that Xi/Xe determine direction and focus of function use (so they actually can be distinguished from each other even if not 100% exclusive, as Delphyne says), what about the practical issues involved in implementing a spectrum-based view?

Many issues have been reduced to opposing binaries simply because it's MUCH easier to discuss and apply things in terms of compare/contrast, then deal with inevitable deviations from the poles. Without the poles, there's little ways to distinguish anything out of the morass in conversation or application.

[Ilah]

I'm not really sure.

I see that both my Ni and Ne were very high so I can say that my N is good. Te is "excellent use" and Ti is "average" so overall I guess I am pretty decent at T.

But how would I descibe my F and S under your system, with such a huge discrepancy in scores? For example my Fi is listed as "excellent use" and my Fe is "unused." So am I good at F or bad at it or do you take the midpoint and say I am average at F? My Si is good, but my Se is a pathetically low 3.2. So do you say over all I am really bad at S?

Score difference summary:
Ni-Ne = 43.8-42.1 = 1.7
Te-Ti = 41-29.9 = 11.1
Si-Se = 32.7-3.2 = 29.5
Fi-Fe = 40.8-7.5 = 33.3

[prplchknz]

time for another installment of talking out my butt: I think Fi and Fe are different enough. My room mate (INFJ) and I can be presented with the same information and if we're both using our feeling function will often come to a different conclusion. She generally looks at past experiences and what society says to do, I'm sure she does do some comparison aswell. I look at past experience and compare and contrast them to the present situation, how close I am to the person, how many times has this person screwed me over in the past? then I go through different scenerios in my head and try to predict the outcome of each one. So yeah same amount information two different reactions, and I don't think their's a right way. It's just she sticks to rules she's made up, and thinks to be the ultimate truth. and I don't have any rules set in stone, mostly because I don't believe in an ultimate truth.

[Evan]

I'm not trying to say that Fe and Fi don't manifest differently. I'm just saying that thinking of someone as a Fi user OR (exclusive or) a Fe user isn't really painting the full picture. I disagree with "Fi users" all the time, but that's irrelevant to my point (Plus, I disagree with Fe users, too, although slightly less often). My point is, when Fe and Fi make the exact same conclusion, why distinguish between the two so strongly? Why say "the Fe user made that decision because of tangible evidence and the Fi user made that decision because the tangible evidence was taken in through Ne or Se and filtered through the internal standard." It seems so convoluted. Sometimes, Feeling is just Feeling.

Jennifer: point taken, although I wasn't really talking about application of MBTI, I was talking about the bounds of the theory. My interpretation seems to account for more shades of grey.

[Delphyne]

Why distinguish between T and F? Why say “the T user made that decision because of impersonal basis and the F user made that decision because of personal basis?” It seems so convoluted. Sometimes, Judging is just Judging.

[Evan]

The difference is, there is no overlap between thinking and feeling.

I agree, sometimes it's useful to talk about judging and not distinguish further.

[Delphyne]

Originally Posted by dissonance

The difference is, there is no overlap between thinking and feeling.

They´re both concerned with judging.

I agree, sometimes it's useful to talk about judging and not distinguish further.

Sometimes it´s useful to talk about feeling and not distinguish further. Not always, though.

[Evan]

You didn't understand. Fe and Fi can come to THE SAME CONCLUSION. Fe and Te by definition cannot.