Yet another confused INFx

[Viridian]

Hey there. As I mentioned in my forum introduction, I'm an INFx who has been pondering his MBTI type for several weeks (maybe months, I can't recall). I've read Vicky Jo Varner's website, infjorinfp.com, several times, yet I'm still unsure. I was hoping that a more... interactive approach could help. I'll list, then, the "on one hand"s and the "on the other hand"s that have plagued me for waaay too long, in case someone can make heads or tails of my ramblings. Thanks in advance!

By the way, a bit of the following info is based on an experiment I made last month, wherein I asked a person closed to me about several things - cognitive processes, temperaments, interaction styles, short descriptions, et cetera, in a "which one of these fits me most?" fashion. Just so you know what I'm talking about. I'll call this person "K.C." for convenience.

Pro-INFP/Anti-INFJ

* The cognitive processes test I took pegged me as an INFP, apparently because I have pretty good Fi (more on that in a sec).

* According to K.C., I favor the Informing style (as well as the Behind-the-Scenes pattern), fit INFP profiles (as a whole) better and have good Fi and Ne.

* I'm somewhat socially awkward, not being a big fan of social conventions that seem too structured or stifling, as well as somewhat clueless about the "social atmosphere" around me, which strikes me as a lack of Fe.

* I frequently have strong, visceral reactions to things, which often go unspoken. They are also quite ambivalent - for example, I can both appreciate the beauty of a work of art and envy deeply the artist who created it, in a sort of admiration/hatred combination.

* I don't have much of a social life, which strikes me as low Fe. However, I suspect this might have something to do with the unfamiliarity of studying in a university... though this streak has been going on for four semesters...

* I identify a lot more with my ISFP mother than with my ESFJ father - the latter comes across as pretty damn judgmental and controlling, like a "Jewish mother" stereotype. (Fi vs. Fe?)

* I often do my best to be tolerant toward people and respectful in regard to their emotions (Fe seems a bit more like, "shape up, dude!", according to Vicky Jo)

* I don't usually celebrate holidays as eagerly as my relatives, which, according to Vicky Jo, comes across as a lack of Fe...

* I'm mostly a "live and let live"/"that is none of my business" kind of person. I'm ready to help (if asked nicely ), but I don't want to interfere too much in people's decisions (the "for your own good" line is not my favorite)

* I couldn't be mistaken for an extravert if I tried. Quite a few INFJ profiles (and INFJs themselves) mention being mistaken for an extravert, so I thought this was worth noting. I'm very reserved - a bit of a shrinking violet, even - and have a bit of a struggle doing small talk - it was one of those this they had to teach me, y'know?

* I've struggled with my typing for quite a while, which, according to Vicky Jo, is a pretty good sign that I have a lack of Je (extraverted judging).

* Even when I'm pretty pissed at someone, I find it hard to scold them (especially since I hate being scolded). I've heard INFJs are more comfortable criticizing others, so...

* I'm pretty damn sheepish when asking for something. Unless it's a matter of urgency, I'm all like "um... could you please... y'know... if it's not too much of a bother..."

* I react (internally) pretty badly when people are being judgmental - for example, when someone talks about "those crazy teenagers with pink hair" and whatnot.

Pro-INFJ/Anti-INFP

* According to K.C., I fit the "INJ child" profile better than the "IFP child" one; also, s/he was pretty confident about me fitting the INFJ description from this page, as well as Vicky Jo's description of how Ni and Fe "show up".

* I very much fear embarrassment/humiliation - in this sense, I really mind how people perceive me. Could this be Fe?

* I often try to be polite in a conventional way - "please" and "thank you" and all that jazz. I even started bowing to bus drivers for a while, but my parents thought it was weird and didn't convey gratitude in a sense they could understand (again, Fe?).

* I'm quite perfectionistic, which I've heard is a trait common among Js. I often berate myself if I miss deadlines or arrive late at appointments.

* I often identify more with ENFJs than ENFPs. The latter - or, at least, media depictions of the latter - often annoy me, seeming either oblivious to others' feelings or sneakily meddlesome, ready to "bring people out of their shells" or "make them live life more fully", in addition to being those "Wooo... what does this button do?" types. I'm pretty sure that's quite stereotypical, but I thought it might be useful info nevertheless.

* I'm a bit of a "toe the line", rule-abiding kind of guy - the kind that almost never got in trouble at school. (However, I'm ostensibly not a SJ - the Guardian style sometimes seems kinda dry or humdrum to me.)

* I'm somewhat selective about what I tell people, often looking out for their reactions. From what I've read, NFPs have more of a childlike candor about them. However, it is quite difficult for me to lie, so I just keep my mouth shut.

* Someone in this forum once mentioned that NFPs approach eagerly those "fleeting moments of connection" with somebody, even if they might never see them again. That doesn't sound appealing to me... I'm on the lookout for constancy and reliability - even though I fear deeply that I might not provide the commitment I seek.

* I often think I "should" feel a certain way, that "there is no reason" for me to have a certain feeling. Sometimes it makes me more even-tempered - which is a good thing - and sometimes it makes me deny myself the pleasure of "knowing what I want" - which kind of isn't. On a related note...

* I seldom express my opinions - even denying that I have any. They ask me, "where do you want to have lunch?", I say, "I dunno. You?", partially because they have plenty of divergent opinions without my help.

* I've been called "rigid" due to my OCD-ish behavior, as well as my misguided politeness ("I won't eat until she arrives. You guys can start without me.")

* I'm pretty neurotic about time. My watch is my guide through the strange world I inhabit, and I've made a habit out of using an alarm clock on weekends (partially because there are few things more humiliating than hearing someone say "hey there, sleepyhead!")

* I don't often find myself in an "activist" position, since I'm reticent about speaking my mind - when I actually have an opinion, that is. In this case, it's not so much about "hurting feelings" as it is about "creating dischord and opposition".

* I often ask myself whether or not I'm being selfish, so I try my best to be helpful and even somewhat obsequious (Fe?) For that matter, I often feel like I owe people something, if that makes any sense.

* I don't often rail against The System or The Man or The Industry like it seems many INFPs do - though I do acknowledge that innovation is sometimes frowned upon in entertainment fields (then again, maybe it's just one of those INFP stereotypes...)

* My Si is pretty terrible, leading me to think maybe it's my worst function (as in the Berens model)

* I'm no good at the whole "spontaneity" thing. Like, at all. Kind of an uptight guy.

* While I can be somewhat over-sensitive to people's comments, I don't come across as someone who's very emotional or vulnerable at first glance (according to Vicky Jo, INFPs often forget to hide their vulnerability)

* Sometimes, my internal lanscape can feel somewhat barren, to the point where I once thought I was a sociopath or something like that (could this be the infamous INFJ Tin Man Syndrome?)

* I often try to anticipate what I (and others) are going to do - I get kind of nervous when we go out for dinner and start driving without knowing where we're going.

* It's kind of hard for me to really relax. While I'm somewhat lazy, I'm not nearly as "go with the flow" as INFP are said to be.

* While INFPs (according, again, to Vicky Jo) like debating (due to aspirational Te), I kind of bristle at the thought of doing so, especially in a public forum (as in an actual place, not just on the 'net)

I admit that some of the things said above are kind of stereotypical, so I'm hoping to debunk some myths along the way in this discussion. Also, feel free to ask for details or to ask more questions!


So, what do you guys make of this? Any feedback is deeply appreciated. Thank you.

Disclaimer: I do not want to create another Fi/Fe sixty-pages-long debate; I'm just asking for feedback from people with more experience than me.

 

[silvermist]

I'm not sure of your type, either, but I'm an INFP and my mom is an INFJ, so I have a fair amount of experience with both types. Thought I'd post my comments.

* I don't have much of a social life, which strikes me as low Fe.

Could be just strong Introversion, or related to circumstances as you mentioned.

* I often do my best to be tolerant toward people and respectful in regard to their emotions (Fe seems a bit more like, "shape up, dude!", according to Vicky Jo)

Yes, but I think Fe is mainly involved in being aware of others' feelings & acting accordingly. Not to say that Fi users can't do the same.

* I don't usually celebrate holidays as eagerly as my relatives, which, according to Vicky Jo, comes across as a lack of Fe...

My mom likes celebrating the holidays, but only in ways that are meaningful to her. She is not into holiday hype, or tradition simply for tradition's sake. This is very different from our SJ relatives, so probably to their eyes she isn't as "excited" about holidays.

* I've struggled with my typing for quite a while, which, according to Vicky Jo, is a pretty good sign that I have a lack of Je (extraverted judging).

I don't think it implies lack of Judging. Uncertainty about your type could be caused by a lot of things.
In my experience, Judgers SEEK conclusions, but whether they get them easily or not is another story.

* I often think I "should" feel a certain way, that "there is no reason" for me to have a certain feeling. Sometimes it makes me more even-tempered - which is a good thing - and sometimes it makes me deny myself the pleasure of "knowing what I want" - which kind of isn't.

I have never experienced this. I might ponder why I have a certain feeling if it's unusual, but I'm always accepting it throughout. So maybe what you are describing is something more Judging.

* I'm no good at the whole "spontaneity" thing. Like, at all. Kind of an uptight guy.

I do think that is probably judging. I've met responsible & fairly deliberate Perceivers, but all Perceivers seem to be spontaneous in SOME area.
However, it depends how you're defining "spontaneity". It could be a lack of Extraversion. I am NOT spontaneous in social situations. But I AM spontaneous & flexible when it comes to solo activities.

* While I can be somewhat over-sensitive to people's comments, I don't come across as someone who's very emotional or vulnerable at first glance (according to Vicky Jo, INFPs often forget to hide their vulnerability)

Under normal circumstances, INFP's don't look vulnerable or emotional. We tend to hide our feelings. Actually, I've had to work on expressing them instead, in order to communicate better with people.

* While INFPs (according, again, to Vicky Jo) like debating (due to aspirational Te), I kind of bristle at the thought of doing so, especially in a public forum (as in an actual place, not just on the 'net)

I do have aspirational Te. I've love to be good at debating, but I can't stand the conflict of it. ESPECIALLY in a public forum like you say. So I don't think debating is really an INFP thing. (discussions are a different story)


A couple questions for you:

Is your way of thinking and/or talking circuitous, wandering from one point to the next, sometimes without a definite conclusion?

You mentioned you're "perfectionistic"; is this in a lot of areas or just a few things that are really important to you?

Do you tend to finish projects? (I know this sounds kind of trivial, but in my experience finishing things seems to be important to INFJ's and a big weakness for INFP's)

Feel free to ask me any questions.

 

[William K]

Quick judgment, you sound more INFP than INFJ. There are quite a number of threads on the INFx so look around, though I have to say that there are many who don't agree with Vicky Jo's site

Anyway, on to more specific parts of your self-assessment. A lot of what you deem as Anti-INFP actually can be found in INFPs

* I very much fear embarrassment/humiliation - in this sense, I really mind how people perceive me. Could this be Fe?

Don't think this has much to do with Fe/i. This is more introversion or even shyness.

* I often try to be polite in a conventional way - "please" and "thank you" and all that jazz. I even started bowing to bus drivers for a while, but my parents thought it was weird and didn't convey gratitude in a sense they could understand (again, Fe?).

Fi is about internal values. If you value being polite, then you will act politely. Besides, in today's society, being polite seems more like the oddity than the norm. Of course, this is also culture-related depending on where you live.

* I'm somewhat selective about what I tell people, often looking out for their reactions. From what I've read, NFPs have more of a childlike candor about them. However, it is quite difficult for me to lie, so I just keep my mouth shut.

A lot of INFPs are very secretive and protective of their opinions and feelings, as Silvermist mentions above. Unless you trip some core value, then watch out!

* I often think I "should" feel a certain way, that "there is no reason" for me to have a certain feeling. Sometimes it makes me more even-tempered - which is a good thing - and sometimes it makes me deny myself the pleasure of "knowing what I want" - which kind of isn't. On a related note...

This sounds Fi actually if you mean that "there is no logical reason" for me to have a certain feeling.

* I seldom express my opinions - even denying that I have any. They ask me, "where do you want to have lunch?", I say, "I dunno. You?", partially because they have plenty of divergent opinions without my help.

This sounds P more than J

* I've been called "rigid" due to my OCD-ish behavior, as well as my misguided politeness ("I won't eat until she arrives. You guys can start without me.")

Again, if this is a core value that is important to you, INFPs can be extremely stubborn

* I don't often find myself in an "activist" position, since I'm reticent about speaking my mind - when I actually have an opinion, that is. In this case, it's not so much about "hurting feelings" as it is about "creating dischord and opposition".

Ditto about core values. INFPs are not 24/7 crusaders. Only for very specific causes

* I'm no good at the whole "spontaneity" thing. Like, at all. Kind of an uptight guy.

More an I thing

* While INFPs (according, again, to Vicky Jo) like debating (due to aspirational Te), I kind of bristle at the thought of doing so, especially in a public forum (as in an actual place, not just on the 'net)

INFPs like debating? What's your definition of debating? While I enjoy N-type discussions and throwing out new ideas and stuff, I tend to shy away from the "I'm right, you're an idiot" type of debates.

After reading through the whole post, why do you think you are an Intuitive? Have you considered ISFP?

 

[Viridian]

Thanks for the responses, guys! Lots o' good stuff in there. To be frank, I've classified myself in the past as INTJ, INTP, ISTJ, ISFJ... At least half the introverted types, for several different reasons.

I'll expand upon some specific points:

I do think that is probably judging. I've met responsible & fairly deliberate Perceivers, but all Perceivers seem to be spontaneous in SOME area.
However, it depends how you're defining "spontaneity". It could be a lack of Extraversion. I am NOT spontaneous in social situations. But I AM spontaneous & flexible when it comes to solo activities.

Well, isn't that the million-dollar question. While I kind of leap from one activity to another (read a little, then check out my e-mail, then read some more, etc.), I have a method in my madness: for example, I seldom leave books unfinished, even if the reading is kind of "wading along" - exception made for some texts I have to read for college, a true token to my procrastination abilities. I also try not to bite off more than I can chew - right now, I'm reading four different manga series, and I plan to delay reading one more until I get to the meat of those, otherwise I might get a little too scattered, if you understand what I mean. (some enneagram 5 stuff here?)

Under normal circumstances, INFP's don't look vulnerable or emotional. We tend to hide our feelings. Actually, I've had to work on expressing them instead, in order to communicate better with people.

Yeah, I get your drift, but it's not just a matter of hiding feelings - I get so neurotic about the consequences of accepting them as genuine that I detach way too much - which I guess could be the Fe-Ti combo working its "magic". ("What if I actually dislike what I'm currently doing? I have no idea what else I could do, and even then it takes a helluva lot of work...")

I do have aspirational Te. I've love to be good at debating, but I can't stand the conflict of it. ESPECIALLY in a public forum like you say. So I don't think debating is really an INFP thing. (discussions are a different story)

Hmmm... that could explain my secret attraction to the legal profession as an iconic, abstract concept [translation = Ace Attorney fanboy]. When I see those lawyers on TV, though... let's just say I feel like overruling somebody.

A couple questions for you:

Is your way of thinking and/or talking circuitous, wandering from one point to the next, sometimes without a definite conclusion?

Hard to say... usually I have some sort of thing to say (otherwise, I make pretty damn scattered and/or artificial-sounding small talk), but I kind of shrink when it comes to actually demanding something.

You mentioned you're "perfectionistic"; is this in a lot of areas or just a few things that are really important to you?

Lessee... usually, my effort on things that don't interest me is kind of half-hearted, but I genuinely seek the approval of those who evaluate me (literally or figuratively). When I get a low grade or a negative response, I get all, "Viridian, you idiot! Curse your empty brain!"

Do you tend to finish projects? (I know this sounds kind of trivial, but in my experience finishing things seems to be important to INFJ's and a big weakness for INFP's)

I try to - if for no other reason, to avoid humiliation or disgrace (god, I'm so melodramatic :rolli. Procrastinate, do things in a bit of a rush, get a good grade and compliments anyway, feel like an imposter, lather, rinse, repeat.

Quick judgment, you sound more INFP than INFJ. There are quite a number of threads on the INFx so look around, though I have to say that there are many who don't agree with Vicky Jo's site

Yeah, I do realize. I know she's kind of an expert, but some of VJ's ideas seem... peculiar. I suppose she might emphasize a little too much the "social convention" aspect of Fe. And I've read the threads, but there ain't nuffin like a hands-on experience - having some good ol' feedback, y'know?

Anyway, on to more specific parts of your self-assessment. A lot of what you deem as Anti-INFP actually can be found in INFPs

By the way, I didn't want to use the phrase "anti-INFP", but I had no other way of saying what I wanted to say. So, sorry about that.

Don't think this has much to do with Fe/i. This is more introversion or even shyness.

Yeah, I suppose. And I'm likely an Enneatype 5w4, so there's also that...

Fi is about internal values. If you value being polite, then you will act politely. Besides, in today's society, being polite seems more like the oddity than the norm. Of course, this is also culture-related depending on where you live.

Tell. Me. About it. My brother keeps teasing me about saying "thank you" and "excuse me", like he's the boss of me. And here in the mystical land known as Brazil, things are even more informal than in the US. I have a bit of a "gentleman complex", I guess...

A lot of INFPs are very secretive and protective of their opinions and feelings, as Silvermist mentions above. Unless you trip some core value, then watch out!

And, even when they do, I feel powerless to speak out. Uncomfortable, yes. But not so much I explode in their face or anything. The other day, after a couple of glasses of wine, this guy at a social occasion started ranting about homosexuals and black people and whatnot, and I felt like, "Am I seriously understanding this right? Am I missing something?". But I know, somehow, the minute I raise an objection, all eyes will be on me and I will melt like a wax model of Margaret Hamilton in the sun, longing only to escape the nightmare I got myself into (Paranoid? Me?)

This sounds Fi actually if you mean that "there is no logical reason" for me to have a certain feeling.

Could you elaborate a little, please? I'm curious, as this seems to contradict the "listen to your heart" vibe I get from Fi descriptions.

This sounds P more than J.

Yeah, but the thing is, if I add my opinion to the bunch, we get stuck in a Mexican standoff of suggestions and the "Poor me" game begins. If you know an ESFJ, you most likely get my drift.

Again, if this is a core value that is important to you, INFPs can be extremely stubborn

Point taken. I felt hungry after a while, but I felt it was only fair to those who were coming to the dinner...

Ditto about core values. INFPs are not 24/7 crusaders. Only for very specific causes.

OK, I see. Though I think my idea of "harmony" is more like "preventing a catastrophe" than "feeling serene". As you've probably guessed by now, I'm kind of neurotic - at my worse, I make Woody Allen look like a hippie.

More an I thing

I guess... Mind you, I base quite a few of my conceptions of INFPs on ENFPs, as I said before. They're more frequent in fictional works - you know, the part usually played by Zooey Deschanel in movies, that drags you into the colorful world of Ne to save you from the dull, gray curse of SJdom. (Just kidding, I heart SJs - when they aren't intolerant or bigoted, of course)

INFPs like debating? What's your definition of debating? While I enjoy N-type discussions and throwing out new ideas and stuff, I tend to shy away from the "I'm right, you're an idiot" type of debates.

Fun anecdote: a few days ago, I watched Kramer vs. Kramer. The courtroom scene made me want to stick my head in a bucket of ice for sixteen hours. Do lawyers really shout, point and accuse people that much in real life?

After reading through the whole post, why do you think you are an Intuitive? Have you considered ISFP?

I dunno... I don't think it fits. My mother is an ISFP and she's much more practical, laid-back and spontaneous than me. When she asked me what was the point of studying MBTI, I pretty much said nothing - the very notion that something had to be "practical" for me to be fascinated by it had, at no point, crossed my mind.

Once again, thanks, guys! Really, your help means a lot to me. And sorry if I took too long to respond - I'm still learning forum HTML on the fly.

 

[silvermist]

OK, I think you're an INFJ. Can't be sure yet.

But, re-reading your original post, I think a lot of the Pro-INFP statements could be related to Introversion or Fe.

And, the answers you recently posted seem to indicate Judging. Like trying to finish things, and having a "method to your madness".

I think the "Fe/Ti loop" is a very plausible explanation for being conflicted over feelings.

About values being threatened:

And, even when they do, I feel powerless to speak out. Uncomfortable, yes. But not so much I explode in their face or anything.

In that kind of case I think INFP's tend to "explode", focusing on their own feelings and values to be defended, instead of how others would perceive them. You seem to stay aware of how others might view you (Fe?).

I'm a bit short on time right now, but I'll post later if I think of anything.

You might check out PersonalityPage's INFP & INFJ type descriptions--I've found them to be quite accurate.

 

[Viridian]

Thanks for the response, silvermist! Frankly, I've been suspecting, in the last few weeks, that I'm actually an INFJ with a severe case of INFP Envy. Whenever I read one of those Fe/Fi threads (or try to, since the conflict makes me reach for the bottle), it always seems like NFJs (or FJs in general) are a) judgmental, b) Stepfordish, c) conformistic, d) invalidating, e) mean or f) all of the above; NFPs, on the other hand, look like cherubs whose tears makes orchids grow and whose voice creates rainbows. Silly, I know, but I keep eyeing that supposed purity with green eyes, like it's something I yearn for but can never have (hello, 4 wing!).

You know, it's funny - INFPs are the ones described as commonly having low self-esteem, but INFJs are the ones I'd have pegged as shy, since they both attempt to measure themselves by an external standard and have a knee-jerk revulsion towards the external world due to inferior Se. If anything, I'd expect the INFPs to have confidence in themselves, since Fi ensures they have a "center". With Fe/Ti, one seldom knows which thoughts and feelings are his/hers and which belong to others - or rather, to an Other, which can be a person, an institution, an abstract, amorphous mass of social norms, et cetera. Maybe the fact that I'm pretty vulnerable to guilt-tripping is indicative of Fe?

On the whole "exploding" thing: I'm not sure I phrased it the way I wanted. When I'm rattled, I try to remain calm to avoid conflict or embarassment, but the bottled anger/fear/nervousness comes out in less overt ways - I get fidgety, clench my fists, my neck gets all tense, and my teeth start grinding. Long story short, I look like an Ace Attorney villain after you find a hole in their alibi. :rolli:

I'm still kind of unsure, but I'm really enjoying the thread and the feedback. You guys are awesome.

 

[silvermist]

Aw, thanks! Figuring out type can be a LONG process, but feedback can really help.

I just read some more about Fe...

"Often ... we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs."

Does that sound like you?

About Fe impressions...maybe you are also thinking of Fe paired with Si? I've found Fe paired with Ni to be very different.

 

[Viridian]

Aw, thanks! Figuring out type can be a LONG process, but feedback can really help.

You can say that again!

I just read some more about Fe...

"Often ... we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs."

Does that sound like you?

Well, it's... complicated. I yearn not to disappoint others and to treat them with great respect, but I don't know if I'd call that "caretaking". I'm pretty careful about both guessing what others are feeling and respecting their boundaries. Otherwise, I could end up projecting too much or being meddlesome (and, frankly, I don't look forward to being a young male version of Mary Worth).

As I implied before, I have the habit of repressing my feelings and urges in order to be responsible and avoid butting heads, to the point where I kind of deny that I have preferences or opinions at all when interacting with others. I realize that my feelings are mine alone, and that one has to be realistic in order not to be humiliated or disappointed by the outer world. Plus, I keep wondering what impact I'm having on others, but my true feelings can often show up in my body language, so my words may end up sounding kind of hollow. To avoid "blowing up", I detach - not in the sense of being Dr. Spock-ish, but in the sense of expressing ambiguity about my own views and trying not to be contentious. Is that Fe?

About Fe impressions...maybe you are also thinking of Fe paired with Si? I've found Fe paired with Ni to be very different.

Could be... I have mastered the noble art of Passive-Agressive Ninjutsu thanks to my ESFJ dad. However, I shall be careful about making generalizations about SFJs, as I have great respect for their positive aspects.

Some other stuff that I thought about recently:

Here's the thing - from my occasional observations, it seems Fi users are more often conflicted in the sense of knowing exactly what they want but being crushed by reality, whereas I, well... You know how they say someone is a "judge, jury and executioner" kind of person? Well, in my head, I'm the judge, the jury, the defense attorney, the prosecutor, the defendant, the bailiff, the eyewitness, the expert witness and the extras who gasp and murmur when a plot twist happens. The battle isn't out there - it's here in my noggin. If you want to know what I want, I'm probably going to be kind of vague - I'm still figuring it out, partly because I "internalize" so many outside voices.

While, as I mentioned, I envy the purity seen in many INFPs to the point of resentment (sorry, guys - but you're still awesome, for real!), I'm often too driven by external opinion to "speak out". When I see someone who is not afraid to express his/her values - like, say, Hayao Miyazaki, god of animation - I feel like a hack and a coward and a brown-noser. But I can't help it - I never have the conviction that I can win an argument, and the fear of losing face overwhelms me. I kind of want to express something, but I second-guess myself a lot, despite being somewhat rigid and a wee bit stubborn. Blech.

Again, thanks, silvermist. Your responses mean a lot to me.

(Whoa, speak of the devil! EW has made another Fe/Fi thread, this time focusing on the perilious subject of loyalty! Better get the martinis.)

 

[Thalassa]

Hi, I'm here being oblivious to others' feelings and sneakily meddlesome about bringing others out of their shells (no, really, I'm like that I admit it and am not being snide) and I'm here to tell you that certain INFPs bug me as much as you say ENFPs can bug you. It doesn't make you INFJ.

You sound INFP, and just to let you know, the collective you also has about as much of a chance of being INFJ as being tomorrow's Power Ball winner.

 

[Viridian]

Hi, I'm here being oblivious to others' feelings and sneakily meddlesome about bringing others out of their shells (no, really, I'm like that I admit it and am not being snide) and I'm here to tell you that certain INFPs bug me as much as you say ENFPs can bug you. It doesn't make you INFJ.

Hee hee. Sorry if I offended you. I mean it. Didn't want to hurt your feelings or anything. There are quite a few ENFPs I find very, very awesome, like, say, Luis Molina from Kiss of the Spider Woman (he was an ENFP, right?). I just get kinda peeved when the SJ who wants to live an orderly life is shown to be "wrong" in these movies - why is there supposed to be just one way to live your life? Ahem. Rant over.

I'm quite curious - what peeves you about these INFPs?

You sound INFP, and just to let you know, the collective you also has about as much of a chance of being INFJ as being tomorrow's Power Ball winner.

What do you mean by "the collective me"? Could you please elaborate?

Also, thanks for answering the thread. And sorry, one more time, if I offended you. Or Zooey Deschanel. Or both.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Infj's are extremely rare, the odds of you actually being one is pretty low. That's what Marm was gettin' at.

 

[Thalassa]

Hee hee. Sorry if I offended you. I mean it. Didn't want to hurt your feelings or anything. There are quite a few ENFPs I find very, very awesome, like, say, Luis Molina from Kiss of the Spider Woman (he was an ENFP, right?). I just get kinda peeved when the SJ who wants to live an orderly life is shown to be "wrong" in these movies - why is there supposed to be just one way to live your life? Ahem. Rant over.

No, my feelings weren't hurt at all, but thank you for caring. I was trying to joke around about it a bit, sorry if that wasn't clear.

Yeah, I mean ENFPs can try to pull SJs out of their orderly lives, but SJs can also attempt to impose order on NPs or SPs as well, so it goes both ways. There are plenty of right ways to live, I don't think there's just one.

I'm quite curious - what peeves you about these INFPs?

Usually if I'm annoyed with an INFP I feel that they are looking too hard for something to be offended about, like they're being eternally pessimisstic and acting like the world is out to get them; essentially the victim act.

Also, some INFP males just give me this vibe that makes my skin crawl. I think it might be repressed rage on their part that I'm picking up on, I'm not quite sure, but I don't like it.

What do you mean by "the collective me"? Could you please elaborate?

Oh just "you" in the plural sense...the collective you is everybody, I was saying I wasn't just directing it toward you as an individual.

Also, thanks for answering the thread. And sorry, one more time, if I offended you. Or Zooey Deschanel. Or both.

Ha ha no problem. I wasn't offended, I promise.

 

[oncetheriver]

You seem pretty INFP. I know two INFJs, my mother and a 20-year-old female, and you don't sound like either of them... My thoughts are bolded below.

Pro-INFP/Anti-INFJ

* I identify a lot more with my ISFP mother than with my ESFJ father - the latter comes across as pretty damn judgmental and controlling, like a "Jewish mother" stereotype. (Fi vs. Fe?)

I had an ISFP teacher in elementary school. I really identified with her expressions of deep feeling (Fi)... My INFJ mother often notes that my teacher and I can both be very emotionally stubborn.

* I'm mostly a "live and let live"/"that is none of my business" kind of person. I'm ready to help (if asked nicely ), but I don't want to interfere too much in people's decisions (the "for your own good" line is not my favorite)

INFJs will interfere!! There are threads at personalitycafe.com for each type asking what pisses you off about each type (e.g. What pisses you off about INFPs?, What pisses you off about INFJs?, etc.) and one of the things about INFJs is that they love to give unsolicited advice

* I couldn't be mistaken for an extravert if I tried. Quite a few INFJ profiles (and INFJs themselves) mention being mistaken for an extravert, so I thought this was worth noting. I'm very reserved - a bit of a shrinking violet, even - and have a bit of a struggle doing small talk - it was one of those this they had to teach me, y'know?

very much worth noting. When I told my mom she was an introvert (INFJ), she argued that she was an extrovert... until I explained the differences between introvert and extrovert as MBTI tells it.

* I've struggled with my typing for quite a while, which, according to Vicky Jo, is a pretty good sign that I have a lack of Je (extraverted judging).

* Even when I'm pretty pissed at someone, I find it hard to scold them (especially since I hate being scolded). I've heard INFJs are more comfortable criticizing others, so...

* I'm pretty damn sheepish when asking for something. Unless it's a matter of urgency, I'm all like "um... could you please... y'know... if it's not too much of a bother..."

* I react (internally) pretty badly when people are being judgmental - for example, when someone talks about "those crazy teenagers with pink hair" and whatnot.

these four are very INFPish.

Pro-INFJ/Anti-INFP

* I very much fear embarrassment/humiliation - in this sense, I really mind how people perceive me. Could this be Fe?

actually I think INFPs fear embarassment a deal more than INFJs do. INFPs have Feeling first, which creates a strong people awareness, and the second function Ne, in a way, SERVES the first function Fi. INFJs have iNtuition as their first function, so even though they have Fe, it comes second and mostly serves the interests of Ni. Fe in INFJs is also more assertive and confident... maybe cause of Ni?

Of course most people fear embarrassment at some level but it is much more intense in INFPs than INFJs! My INFJ mom says she doesn't feel nervous or worried in public, usually, and never mentions these issues as problems. The 20-year-old female INFJ also doesn't seem to have these issues, and comes across as assertive and rather confident and quite emotionally expressive.

* I often try to be polite in a conventional way - "please" and "thank you" and all that jazz. I even started bowing to bus drivers for a while, but my parents thought it was weird and didn't convey gratitude in a sense they could understand (again, Fe?).

In elementary school my friends often teased me for being "too polite". I would say sorry again and again for shooting a ball at the wrong angle in ball games. INFJs? They would sooner come across as pushy than "too polite" (note: don't take this the wrong way, i very much respect INFJs)

* I'm quite perfectionistic, which I've heard is a trait common among Js. I often berate myself if I miss deadlines or arrive late at appointments.

INFPs are pretty dang perfectionistic too. (well I am at least). ESPECIALLY when it's about one of my values... I make it a point to come early to appointments because, well, I value being polite.

* I often identify more with ENFJs than ENFPs. The latter - or, at least, media depictions of the latter - often annoy me, seeming either oblivious to others' feelings or sneakily meddlesome, ready to "bring people out of their shells" or "make them live life more fully", in addition to being those "Wooo... what does this button do?" types. I'm pretty sure that's quite stereotypical, but I thought it might be useful info nevertheless.

This seems more of the function order than the J/P difference. Take a look:
ENFJ: Fe Ni Se Ti
INFP: Fi Ne Si Te
ENFP: Ne Fi Te Si
Both INFPs and ENFJs Feeling function comes first. To grossly generalize, they will consider the Feelings of themselves and other people first.

EDIT: Can't believe I forgot to write this... for the 2 ENFJs I've known (one female, one male), we've had some pretty uncanny resemblances. Generally we coincide in the strong sense of wanting to be liked by people, but also in several extremely specific instances where we have the exact same reaction to something... It's uncanny

* I'm a bit of a "toe the line", rule-abiding kind of guy - the kind that almost never got in trouble at school. (However, I'm ostensibly not a SJ - the Guardian style sometimes seems kinda dry or humdrum to me.)

Yeah, INFPs immensely dislike conflict. It always struck me as more likely that an INFJ would have less qualms about breaking the rules for an idea they support.

* I'm somewhat selective about what I tell people, often looking out for their reactions. From what I've read, NFPs have more of a childlike candor about them. However, it is quite difficult for me to lie, so I just keep my mouth shut.

haha, as an INFP, on the inside I often feel as dirty and impure as anyone else, except with a deep Fi conviction, but somehow we just manage to come across as innocent, sweet angels... :/

* I seldom express my opinions - even denying that I have any. They ask me, "where do you want to have lunch?", I say, "I dunno. You?", partially because they have plenty of divergent opinions without my help.

this seems very INFP-ish. Trust an INFJ to always have an opinion AND be able to state it when asked (or not) AND they often give amazing advice too. INFPs are much more comfortable communicating on paper/online

* I've been called "rigid" due to my OCD-ish behavior, as well as my misguided politeness ("I won't eat until she arrives. You guys can start without me.")

this could be the INFPs and their rigid values. It feels right, so we stick to it.

* I'm pretty neurotic about time. My watch is my guide through the strange world I inhabit, and I've made a habit out of using an alarm clock on weekends (partially because there are few things more humiliating than hearing someone say "hey there, sleepyhead!")

I absolutely must bring a watch whenever I go out! I can't imagine going out and not being able to check the time. I get the feeling that an INFJ has sort of a natural clock. and thus would not feel so much of a need for an external source of time. It's precisely because I lack a sense of time that I feel the need for a watch.

* I often ask myself whether or not I'm being selfish, so I try my best to be helpful and even somewhat obsequious (Fe?) For that matter, I often feel like I owe people something, if that makes any sense.

yes, this is me. I think it's because my Fi is so internalized that when I finally look out, I realized I haven't thought much about other people and their specific needs (which Fe does naturally), so i try to compensate.

* I'm no good at the whole "spontaneity" thing. Like, at all. Kind of an uptight guy.

i think introversion and enneagram play a significant part in this. especially the instinctual variants; have you looked into those? I'm a 4w5 sp/sx, where sp stands for self-preservational, which explains my uptightness compared to some other INFPs.

* While I can be somewhat over-sensitive to people's comments, I don't come across as someone who's very emotional or vulnerable at first glance (according to Vicky Jo, INFPs often forget to hide their vulnerability)

I think this applies to both INFPs and INFJs. Actually, in my experience, INFJs are more likely to be emotionally expressive first.

* Sometimes, my internal lanscape can feel somewhat barren, to the point where I once thought I was a sociopath or something like that (could this be the infamous INFJ Tin Man Syndrome?)

I'm not sure why but I get these feelings too... I thought I was INTP for a short while lol

* I often try to anticipate what I (and others) are going to do - I get kind of nervous when we go out for dinner and start driving without knowing where we're going.

maybe the enneagram 5's need to know? I know I feel a need to know what's going to happen, but it arises out of a need to know and a need to form a big picture and not necessarily about planning what I'm going to do next. then again this probably applies to both INFJ and INFP.

* It's kind of hard for me to really relax. While I'm somewhat lazy, I'm not nearly as "go with the flow" as INFP are said to be.

In what context? In social situations I'm pretty uptight, and even when I feel emotionally turbulent, I've been told I seem peaceful and reserved. and I guess I come across as pretty "go with the flow".

* While INFPs (according, again, to Vicky Jo) like debating (due to aspirational Te), I kind of bristle at the thought of doing so, especially in a public forum (as in an actual place, not just on the 'net)

Hmmm... I always fantasize about the wonders of debate and using my inferior Te, but when I get to the actual thing I more than often chicken out

Hope I helped...

 

[Viridian]

Whoops, sorry for the delay - I was visiting my relatives.

Infj's are extremely rare, the odds of you actually being one is pretty low. That's what Marm was gettin' at.

Yeah, I've heard. But I suppose the percentage is larger among the subgroup "people interested in typology", no?

No, my feelings weren't hurt at all, but thank you for caring. I was trying to joke around about it a bit, sorry if that wasn't clear.

Yeah, I thought you were joking, but I prefer to err on the side of caution.

Yeah, I mean ENFPs can try to pull SJs out of their orderly lives, but SJs can also attempt to impose order on NPs or SPs as well, so it goes both ways. There are plenty of right ways to live, I don't think there's just one.

Oh, yes. A tale as old as time. Or PSAs. It does go both ways, I know - I was just making an observation about ENFPs in movies. The fallacy, of course, is the one-size-fits-all thinking.

Usually if I'm annoyed with an INFP I feel that they are looking too hard for something to be offended about, like they're being eternally pessimisstic and acting like the world is out to get them; essentially the victim act.

Could these be Enneatype Fours?

Also, some INFP males just give me this vibe that makes my skin crawl. I think it might be repressed rage on their part that I'm picking up on, I'm not quite sure, but I don't like it.

Hmmm, that's funny. I thought INFJs were the ones who felt anger more often yet repressed it, whereas INFPs seldom feel it but "explode" when they do. Live and learn, I s'pose.

Oh just "you" in the plural sense...the collective you is everybody, I was saying I wasn't just directing it toward you as an individual.

Ah, okay. I misunderstood. It happens.

Ha ha no problem. I wasn't offended, I promise.

But what about Zooey? Should I write her a letter of apology? (Just kidding. )

* I identify a lot more with my ISFP mother than with my ESFJ father - the latter comes across as pretty damn judgmental and controlling, like a "Jewish mother" stereotype. (Fi vs. Fe?)

I had an ISFP teacher in elementary school. I really identified with her expressions of deep feeling (Fi)... My INFJ mother often notes that my teacher and I can both be very emotionally stubborn.

My ma's actually pretty damn light-hearted, kind of a foil to my perpetual neurotic self. My pa's the one playing "Poor Me" most of the time. Make of that what you will, as they say.

* * I'm mostly a "live and let live"/"that is none of my business" kind of person. I'm ready to help (if asked nicely ), but I don't want to interfere too much in people's decisions (the "for your own good" line is not my favorite)

INFJs will interfere!! There are threads at personalitycafe.com for each type asking what pisses you off about each type (e.g. What pisses you off about INFPs?, What pisses you off about INFJs?, etc.) and one of the things about INFJs is that they love to give unsolicited advice

Mind you, I bristle when people treat others badly, even in not-so-overt ways, but I usually keep my pie-hole shut. Especially if it's my father, who, paradoxically, seems to be oblivious to his rejection of others, despite being Fe-dom.

* * I couldn't be mistaken for an extravert if I tried. Quite a few INFJ profiles (and INFJs themselves) mention being mistaken for an extravert, so I thought this was worth noting. I'm very reserved - a bit of a shrinking violet, even - and have a bit of a struggle doing small talk - it was one of those this they had to teach me, y'know?

very much worth noting. When I told my mom she was an introvert (INFJ), she argued that she was an extrovert... until I explained the differences between introvert and extrovert as MBTI tells it.

To be honest, sometimes I'm downright reclusive; during vacation, I'm almost a hikkikomori. (Ironically, the most extraverted introverts, ISFPs, are Fi-dom rather than Fe-dom. Funny how that works.)

* * I've struggled with my typing for quite a while, which, according to Vicky Jo, is a pretty good sign that I have a lack of Je (extraverted judging).

* Even when I'm pretty pissed at someone, I find it hard to scold them (especially since I hate being scolded). I've heard INFJs are more comfortable criticizing others, so...

* I'm pretty damn sheepish when asking for something. Unless it's a matter of urgency, I'm all like "um... could you please... y'know... if it's not too much of a bother..."

* I react (internally) pretty badly when people are being judgmental - for example, when someone talks about "those crazy teenagers with pink hair" and whatnot.

these four are very INFPish.

I should mention, though, I have a pretty proactive side. Rather than moaning, I decide to get things done, especially if other people are doing little more than complaining to the walls. (Poor walls. Will nobody pay attention to their feelings?) However, I have a bad habit of loitering around office doors for a pretty good while before sheepishly knocking, at least when I have extra time.

* * I very much fear embarrassment/humiliation - in this sense, I really mind how people perceive me. Could this be Fe?

actually I think INFPs fear embarassment a deal more than INFJs do. INFPs have Feeling first, which creates a strong people awareness, and the second function Ne, in a way, SERVES the first function Fi. INFJs have iNtuition as their first function, so even though they have Fe, it comes second and mostly serves the interests of Ni. Fe in INFJs is also more assertive and confident... maybe cause of Ni?

That's funny... in another thread, IFJs were "voted" most likely to be hurt by public humiliation by several posters. Your response makes a lot of sense, though...

* Of course most people fear embarrassment at some level but it is much more intense in INFPs than INFJs! My INFJ mom says she doesn't feel nervous or worried in public, usually, and never mentions these issues as problems. The 20-year-old female INFJ also doesn't seem to have these issues, and comes across as assertive and rather confident and quite emotionally expressive.

Interesting... Whenever I have to speak to an audience, I start, huh, speaking like, huh, Jeff Goldblum. I often at least try not to shrink too much, though. I'd hate to lose face in addition to feeling nervous.

* * I often try to be polite in a conventional way - "please" and "thank you" and all that jazz. I even started bowing to bus drivers for a while, but my parents thought it was weird and didn't convey gratitude in a sense they could understand (again, Fe?).

In elementary school my friends often teased me for being "too polite". I would say sorry again and again for shooting a ball at the wrong angle in ball games. INFJs? They would sooner come across as pushy than "too polite" (note: don't take this the wrong way, i very much respect INFJs)

That's a pretty solid point. Yay, I'm learning!

* * I'm quite perfectionistic, which I've heard is a trait common among Js. I often berate myself if I miss deadlines or arrive late at appointments.

INFPs are pretty dang perfectionistic too. (well I am at least). ESPECIALLY when it's about one of my values... I make it a point to come early to appointments because, well, I value being polite.

I'm kind of half-hearted about things I don't enjoy, but I do at least make an effort. I was the guy who sighed every time our school project group decided precious meeting time was wasted on too many not-basketball-related activities. ("Look, I can do this thing if you don't want to, okay? I just don't want to get a bad grade.")

* * I often identify more with ENFJs than ENFPs. The latter - or, at least, media depictions of the latter - often annoy me, seeming either oblivious to others' feelings or sneakily meddlesome, ready to "bring people out of their shells" or "make them live life more fully", in addition to being those "Wooo... what does this button do?" types. I'm pretty sure that's quite stereotypical, but I thought it might be useful info nevertheless.

This seems more of the function order than the J/P difference. Take a look:
ENFJ: Fe Ni Se Ti
INFP: Fi Ne Si Te
ENFP: Ne Fi Te Si
Both INFPs and ENFJs Feeling function comes first. To grossly generalize, they will consider the Feelings of themselves and other people first.

EDIT: Can't believe I forgot to write this... for the 2 ENFJs I've known (one female, one male), we've had some pretty uncanny resemblances. Generally we coincide in the strong sense of wanting to be liked by people, but also in several extremely specific instances where we have the exact same reaction to something... It's uncanny

That seems valid... though, like I said, I often butt heads (passive-aggressively) with my ESFJ father, who shares a dominant function with ENFJs.

* * I'm a bit of a "toe the line", rule-abiding kind of guy - the kind that almost never got in trouble at school. (However, I'm ostensibly not a SJ - the Guardian style sometimes seems kinda dry or humdrum to me.)

Yeah, INFPs immensely dislike conflict. It always struck me as more likely that an INFJ would have less qualms about breaking the rules for an idea they support.

Yeah, I get you, but INFPs are supposed to be the guys who "live by their values", no? Or is "not rocking the boat" a value? I've read that feelings are "sacred" and "non-negotiable" for IFPs, but I often try to detach and filter them in order not to be reckless or impulsive. Is that rare among INFPs?

* * I'm somewhat selective about what I tell people, often looking out for their reactions. From what I've read, NFPs have more of a childlike candor about them. However, it is quite difficult for me to lie, so I just keep my mouth shut.

haha, as an INFP, on the inside I often feel as dirty and impure as anyone else, except with a deep Fi conviction, but somehow we just manage to come across as innocent, sweet angels... :/

I frequently envy purity, as I said before - in that sense, I'm quite the perfectionist. Are INFPs more "accepting" of their own faults and peccadillos?

* * I seldom express my opinions - even denying that I have any. They ask me, "where do you want to have lunch?", I say, "I dunno. You?", partially because they have plenty of divergent opinions without my help.

this seems very INFP-ish. Trust an INFJ to always have an opinion AND be able to state it when asked (or not) AND they often give amazing advice too. INFPs are much more comfortable communicating on paper/online

I hear ya... Advice-giving is not my strong point. Though "go see a shrink" usually works pretty well, despite the lingering taboo.

* * I've been called "rigid" due to my OCD-ish behavior, as well as my misguided politeness ("I won't eat until she arrives. You guys can start without me.")

this could be the INFPs and their rigid values. It feels right, so we stick to it.

My ESFJ dad hates this. "Why are you doing this to yourself?" Because I can, bub. Zip it. I'm not forbidding you from eating.

* * I'm pretty neurotic about time. My watch is my guide through the strange world I inhabit, and I've made a habit out of using an alarm clock on weekends (partially because there are few things more humiliating than hearing someone say "hey there, sleepyhead!")

I absolutely must bring a watch whenever I go out! I can't imagine going out and not being able to check the time. I get the feeling that an INFJ has sort of a natural clock. and thus would not feel so much of a need for an external source of time. It's precisely because I lack a sense of time that I feel the need for a watch.

I seem to recall several INFJs saying something similar. On a related note, Five-ness may enter the equation - I visit several websites in a routine manner (for example, friday is Webcomic Catching Up With Day), and I frequently fear that my schedule will be so crammed that I won't be able to do the things I like (especially when travel enters the equation).

* * I often ask myself whether or not I'm being selfish, so I try my best to be helpful and even somewhat obsequious (Fe?) For that matter, I often feel like I owe people something, if that makes any sense.

yes, this is me. I think it's because my Fi is so internalized that when I finally look out, I realized I haven't thought much about other people and their specific needs (which Fe does naturally), so i try to compensate.

That seems to make sense. A lot of people characterize Fi as selfish, but I think it can be quite self-sacrificing and other-oriented. As the Ti/Te dichotomy shows, the barriers between Xi and Xe can be somewhat blurry.

* * I'm no good at the whole "spontaneity" thing. Like, at all. Kind of an uptight guy.

i think introversion and enneagram play a significant part in this. especially the instinctual variants; have you looked into those? I'm a 4w5 sp/sx, where sp stands for self-preservational, which explains my uptightness compared to some other INFPs.

Holy Mackerel, you're right! I, too, think I'm sp/sx, which could account for that. Thanks!

* * While I can be somewhat over-sensitive to people's comments, I don't come across as someone who's very emotional or vulnerable at first glance (according to Vicky Jo, INFPs often forget to hide their vulnerability)

I think this applies to both INFPs and INFJs. Actually, in my experience, INFJs are more likely to be emotionally expressive first.

Really? I've heard they are the NTs of the NFs, so I thought they were more stoic. I, myself, can be cold with some people, even if it's not my intention. Honestly, for the longest time I thought I was an INTJ.

* * Sometimes, my internal lanscape can feel somewhat barren, to the point where I once thought I was a sociopath or something like that (could this be the infamous INFJ Tin Man Syndrome?)

I'm not sure why but I get these feelings too... I thought I was INTP for a short while lol

I remembered something... Vicky Jo said, in her main INFJ website, that the Tin Man represented NFs in general, not just INFJs. Catalysts (read:NFs), according to her, can develop "tin skin" and act cynical in order not to be hurt, squandering their potential for caring. Pretty sad.

* * I often try to anticipate what I (and others) are going to do - I get kind of nervous when we go out for dinner and start driving without knowing where we're going.

maybe the enneagram 5's need to know? I know I feel a need to know what's going to happen, but it arises out of a need to know and a need to form a big picture and not necessarily about planning what I'm going to do next. then again this probably applies to both INFJ and INFP.

Yep. They say Fives are rational and cerebral and emotionless and whatnot, but the real stamp of the Five is the preoccupation with the demands that are going to be made from them - their time, their emotional energy, their knowledge... I think they can be quite cuddly when they decide it's okay to be.

* * It's kind of hard for me to really relax. While I'm somewhat lazy, I'm not nearly as "go with the flow" as INFP are said to be.

In what context? In social situations I'm pretty uptight, and even when I feel emotionally turbulent, I've been told I seem peaceful and reserved. and I guess I come across as pretty "go with the flow".

My anxiety is somewhat pervasive, especially now that I'm in a university. (It's kinda different from American colleges, though.) When someone announces, "Hey, we're gonna leave in a few minutes. You ready?", I'm all, "WHOAWHOAWHOA, why didn't you tell me beforehand?" I like knowing things in advance, so I can "plan" how I'm going to manage my time. My precious, precious time, that I could be wasting in reading Agony Booth recaps or listening to SSBB music on YouTube for the Nth time.

* * While INFPs (according, again, to Vicky Jo) like debating (due to aspirational Te), I kind of bristle at the thought of doing so, especially in a public forum (as in an actual place, not just on the 'net)

Hmmm... I always fantasize about the wonders of debate and using my inferior Te, but when I get to the actual thing I more than often chicken out

Ace Attorney fanboy by night, servant by day. That's how I roll.

* Hope I helped...

You did! Thanks!

And thank all you guys, again, for taking time to analyse my ramblings!

Edit: Ah! By the way, does anyone know how to put quotes inside quotes in replies? Thanks!

 

[I'm Unregistered]

You sound a lot like an INFP to me, too. Not all INFP's are ready to speak out, and some INFJ's (like my grandmother) can speak out too much and meddle.

 

[oncetheriver]

My ma's actually pretty damn light-hearted, kind of a foil to my perpetual neurotic self. My pa's the one playing "Poor Me" most of the time. Make of that what you will, as they say.

haha yeah, sorry, I didn't word it well enough. My ISFP teacher and I can be emotionally stubborn in the sense that when our Fi values are crossed, we turn rigid as steel.

To be honest, sometimes I'm downright reclusive; during vacation, I'm almost a hikkikomori. (Ironically, the most extraverted introverts, ISFPs, are Fi-dom rather than Fe-dom. Funny how that works.)

Really? ISFPs? I've heard that one possible explanation is that their second fnctn is Extraverted Sensing, which results in spontaneous bursts of activity

I should mention, though, I have a pretty proactive side. Rather than moaning, I decide to get things done, especially if other people are doing little more than complaining to the walls. (Poor walls. Will nobody pay attention to their feelings?) However, I have a bad habit of loitering around office doors for a pretty good while before sheepishly knocking, at least when I have extra time.

hmmm im not sure how to explain this but I know that I like to try getting things done when everyone else turns a blind eye to them (enneatype 4's individualism perhaps?)

That's funny... in another thread, IFJs were "voted" most likely to be hurt by public humiliation by several posters. Your response makes a lot of sense, though...

LOL I think i can see how that'd happen... in my experience I have a heck of a hard time getting over a public screw-up, although I won't show it. INFJs may be more likely to project their feelings outward.

That's a pretty solid point. Yay, I'm learning!



That seems valid... though, like I said, I often butt heads (passive-aggressively) with my ESFJ father, who shares a dominant function with ENFJs.

Have you met any ENFJs? Their Ni seems to know what people want from them, which makes them a great deal more charismatic. and i think less room to butt heads. although i've had my fair share of clashes with ExFJs

Yeah, I get you, but INFPs are supposed to be the guys who "live by their values", no? Or is "not rocking the boat" a value? I've read that feelings are "sacred" and "non-negotiable" for IFPs, but I often try to detach and filter them in order not to be reckless or impulsive. Is that rare among INFPs?

sorry, I think I didn't word that right. What I meant was that INFJs are more likely to advocate some random good idea they have.

I think there's a difference between what an INFP deems as sacred, non-negotiable values, and what an INFP might feel in an intense moment. I don't really detach or filter my emotions, so to speak... I will suppress them, or direct them towards what I believe in. In rare cases, when a value's crossed, I will flare up with intense fury!! Most other times a value is crossed (still pretty rare), I'll turn rock stubborn, which only frustrates others if they're trying to get me to think/act/feel a certain way. I don't explode unless I'm cornered or severely provoked. I've read that INFPs generally act in a very roundabout, conflict-avoidant way, which is true and sometimes makes me seem cowardly compared to other types. However, I will stay true to my values.

What can I say? I'm still learning and trying to figure out about myself

I frequently envy purity, as I said before - in that sense, I'm quite the perfectionist. Are INFPs more "accepting" of their own faults and peccadillos?

I think INFPs are very much their own worst critics when it comes to their values, morality, who they are as a person, etc. The INFJs I've met come off as more morally self-righteous sometimes...? But they can also be painfully perfectionistic... I guess just in a different way.

My ESFJ dad hates this. "Why are you doing this to yourself?" Because I can, bub. Zip it. I'm not forbidding you from eating.

LOL

That seems to make sense. A lot of people characterize Fi as selfish, but I think it can be quite self-sacrificing and other-oriented. As the Ti/Te dichotomy shows, the barriers between Xi and Xe can be somewhat blurry.

That's true. Fe is more external and visible and concrete, and Fi being introverted and hidden can easily be seen as selfish.

Holy Mackerel, you're right! I, too, think I'm sp/sx, which could account for that. Thanks!

You're welcome

Really? I've heard they are the NTs of the NFs, so I thought they were more stoic. I, myself, can be cold with some people, even if it's not my intention. Honestly, for the longest time I thought I was an INTJ.

My mom often projects a lot of emotion outward, and then when I ask, why are you getting so intense, she says she wasn't being intense at all... what I gather from this is using Fe to project her Ni ideas, and not really "feeling" the Fe internally. So they may come across as more emotional than they feel inside. INFPs are kind of the opposite in that respect.

I remembered something... Vicky Jo said, in her main INFJ website, that the Tin Man represented NFs in general, not just INFJs. Catalysts (read:NFs), according to her, can develop "tin skin" and act cynical in order not to be hurt, squandering their potential for caring. Pretty sad.

Makes sense.

Yep. They say Fives are rational and cerebral and emotionless and whatnot, but the real stamp of the Five is the preoccupation with the demands that are going to be made from them - their time, their emotional energy, their knowledge... I think they can be quite cuddly when they decide it's okay to be.

Hahaha indeed

My anxiety is somewhat pervasive, especially now that I'm in a university. (It's kinda different from American colleges, though.) When someone announces, "Hey, we're gonna leave in a few minutes. You ready?", I'm all, "WHOAWHOAWHOA, why didn't you tell me beforehand?" I like knowing things in advance, so I can "plan" how I'm going to manage my time. My precious, precious time, that I could be wasting in reading Agony Booth recaps or listening to SSBB music on YouTube for the Nth time.

I'd freak out too if someone announced out of the blue "we're leaving in a few minutes". I'm not sure if this is a J/P difference or just the introvert's need for more time to process stuff.

You did! Thanks!

And thank all you guys, again, for taking time to analyse my ramblings!

No problem. Good luck with the rest of your MBTI journey

 

[Viridian]

My ma's actually pretty damn light-hearted, kind of a foil to my perpetual neurotic self. My pa's the one playing "Poor Me" most of the time. Make of that what you will, as they say.

haha yeah, sorry, I didn't word it well enough. My ISFP teacher and I can be emotionally stubborn in the sense that when our Fi values are crossed, we turn rigid as steel.

I see this sometimes with my ma. I also see her use Te when she gets really peeved - it's scary and awesomely hilarious at the same time, like she's a comedian complaining about whatever.

To be honest, sometimes I'm downright reclusive; during vacation, I'm almost a hikkikomori. (Ironically, the most extraverted introverts, ISFPs, are Fi-dom rather than Fe-dom. Funny how that works.)

Really? ISFPs? I've heard that one possible explanation is that their second fnctn is Extraverted Sensing, which results in spontaneous bursts of activity

Most people who answered in this thread say so, at least. Typing ma was a real challenge, whereas I pegged down pa (ESFJ) pretty fast (when he told me he was an introvert, I was all, WTF? No, no, nononono).

I should mention, though, I have a pretty proactive side. Rather than moaning, I decide to get things done, especially if other people are doing little more than complaining to the walls. (Poor walls. Will nobody pay attention to their feelings?) However, I have a bad habit of loitering around office doors for a pretty good while before sheepishly knocking, at least when I have extra time.

hmmm im not sure how to explain this but I know that I like to try getting things done when everyone else turns a blind eye to them (enneatype 4's individualism perhaps?)

I may not be the best at getting people to lift their buttocks from the couch, but I'm usually the kind of guy who likes to make himself useful.

That's funny... in another thread, IFJs were "voted" most likely to be hurt by public humiliation by several posters. Your response makes a lot of sense, though...

LOL I think i can see how that'd happen... in my experience I have a heck of a hard time getting over a public screw-up, although I won't show it. INFJs may be more likely to project their feelings outward.

Maybe... though I've heard a lot of INFJs described as coming across as "unemotional" (hence why they mistype as INTJs). Introverted types in general can come across as passive, I reckon. I should also mention that "shame" is a common emotion to me, though it's not so much about disappointing a collective than about either giving people the wrong impression, satisfying the wishes of those I care about or avoiding giving the impression that I am moody, ill-tempered or irrational (The Fiveness strikes again!)

That seems valid... though, like I said, I often butt heads (passive-aggressively) with my ESFJ father, who shares a dominant function with ENFJs.

Have you met any ENFJs? Their Ni seems to know what people want from them, which makes them a great deal more charismatic. and i think less room to butt heads. although i've had my fair share of clashes with ExFJs

I don't know a lot of people. Most of my perceptions of types comes either from fiction or from what I see in forums such as this one. So, no, I've never met an ENFJ (that I know of). I once though my therapist was an ENFJ, but I've begun to think she's an ENFP or ESFP.

Yeah, I get you, but INFPs are supposed to be the guys who "live by their values", no? Or is "not rocking the boat" a value? I've read that feelings are "sacred" and "non-negotiable" for IFPs, but I often try to detach and filter them in order not to be reckless or impulsive. Is that rare among INFPs?

sorry, I think I didn't word that right. What I meant was that INFJs are more likely to advocate some random good idea they have.

I think there's a difference between what an INFP deems as sacred, non-negotiable values, and what an INFP might feel in an intense moment. I don't really detach or filter my emotions, so to speak... I will suppress them, or direct them towards what I believe in. In rare cases, when a value's crossed, I will flare up with intense fury!! Most other times a value is crossed (still pretty rare), I'll turn rock stubborn, which only frustrates others if they're trying to get me to think/act/feel a certain way. I don't explode unless I'm cornered or severely provoked. I've read that INFPs generally act in a very roundabout, conflict-avoidant way, which is true and sometimes makes me seem cowardly compared to other types. However, I will stay true to my values.

I've got mixed feelings about that one. While I am conflict-avoidant and fancy myself as a bit of a coward (in that toe-the-line way), I don't explode per se; rather than turning hot-blooded, I turn cold-blooded when crossed, even becoming a bit of a bitter strategist. Every time I'm about to unleash anger, I ask myself, "And then what?". Vengeance shall be mine, in due time; for now, I shall retreat to my quarters, lurking silently and picturing, in my mind, the demise of my enemies. Luckily, I seldom get that Machiavellian, especially since I don't want to actually ruin someone's life or something. That's a no-no.

I frequently envy purity, as I said before - in that sense, I'm quite the perfectionist. Are INFPs more "accepting" of their own faults and peccadillos?

I think INFPs are very much their own worst critics when it comes to their values, morality, who they are as a person, etc. The INFJs I've met come off as more morally self-righteous sometimes...? But they can also be painfully perfectionistic... I guess just in a different way.

I'm not sure how I come across to others in general, besides "intelligent" and "reserved". I can be pretty critical with certain people, but in general I'm pretty straightforward about my self-criticism, though I neither "whine" nor do I "fish for compliments". I'm all, "People tell me I'm good at writing (that's true, they do say that), but I'm not so sure myself. I mean, I don't even practice like the pros do."

That seems to make sense. A lot of people characterize Fi as selfish, but I think it can be quite self-sacrificing and other-oriented. As the Ti/Te dichotomy shows, the barriers between Xi and Xe can be somewhat blurry.

That's true. Fe is more external and visible and concrete, and Fi being introverted and hidden can easily be seen as selfish.

On the whole, though, I want people to perceive me as a "nice guy"; however, I don't believe in superficiality without substance, so I try to embody "nice guy"-ness, even if I feel overwhelmed way too often by others. My demeanor affects people, and theirs affects mine. I may show a fake smile, but I'm no phony.

Really? I've heard they are the NTs of the NFs, so I thought they were more stoic. I, myself, can be cold with some people, even if it's not my intention. Honestly, for the longest time I thought I was an INTJ.

My mom often projects a lot of emotion outward, and then when I ask, why are you getting so intense, she says she wasn't being intense at all... what I gather from this is using Fe to project her Ni ideas, and not really "feeling" the Fe internally. So they may come across as more emotional than they feel inside. INFPs are kind of the opposite in that respect.

Actually, I kind of relate... my tone of voice and body language frequently betray my anger when people "trespass", like I said before. "Why are you angry at me?" "I'm not angry! Did I say I was? Look, I'm just under a little pressure, it's got nothing to do with you..." For this reason and others, I though once I was an Enneatype One. ("Hellfire" is one of my favorite Disney songs )

My anxiety is somewhat pervasive, especially now that I'm in a university. (It's kinda different from American colleges, though.) When someone announces, "Hey, we're gonna leave in a few minutes. You ready?", I'm all, "WHOAWHOAWHOA, why didn't you tell me beforehand?" I like knowing things in advance, so I can "plan" how I'm going to manage my time. My precious, precious time, that I could be wasting in reading Agony Booth recaps or listening to SSBB music on YouTube for the Nth time.

I'd freak out too if someone announced out of the blue "we're leaving in a few minutes". I'm not sure if this is a J/P difference or just the introvert's need for more time to process stuff.

Here's the funny part: my father is a pretty stubborn guy, so, when I don't want to go someplace new or travel or whatnot, and he also doesn't, he kind of assumes we have the same reason for being "stuck", so he wants me to "join his club", so to speak. Naturally, I say "No way, Jose", but he's got this idée fixe that I'm his clone or something, since I remind him of himself at my age.

No problem. Good luck with the rest of your MBTI journey

Ditto for you, my fellow typology bedouin. May we both be blessed with longevity.

 

[Viridian]

By the way, I forgot to add this... I frankly don't identify a lot with the INFP characters I know, like Winston Smith from 1984 or Christian from Moulin Rouge. Quite a few of these characters seem pretty impulsive or ready to seek excitement, which is not how I roll. Do you suppose it has something to do with me being a 5w4 (or maybe a 4w5)? If so, do you know whether there are any notable INFP Fives in fiction? The only one that comes to mind is Strong Sad from the web cartoon series Homestar Runner...

(Sorry for the doublepost. I'm a bad forum rookie. )

EDIT: By the way, do warn me if this thread is getting too long for this subforum. I'm kinda clueless about those things.

 

[Viridian]

Okay, only one more time, I swear. I haven't been sent a warning or anything, so I think I can do this. I know this all reeks of self-absorption on my part, but I still have a craving for feedback on my ideas, and boy, typing oneself is hard. I made a point of answering nearly every post in this thread, so I can see why it ends up being kind of confusing. As such, I'll try to organize my inquiries in order for those reading my rambling stream of words not to get lost in my fragmentary snippets of neurosis.

Here goes nothing...

1) Do Fi users always seek to be cognizant and accepting of their emotional urges and states? As a Type Five, I usually try to distance myself a bit so I don't overreact, even though I'm pretty sensitive, even more so, in some ways, than my ESFJ dad. I also kind of remain unaware of the passion - or bitterness - in my words, so I'm all, "What? What did I say to offend/hurt him/her?", when my tone of voice, for example, might have been a dead giveaway.

2) Are all INFPs "whimsical"? I often find myself dubbed a "stick in the mud" or "rigid", because, though I'm not exactly Mr. Diligent towards schoolwork, I'm fussy and organized towards a lot of things ("plan" which books I'll read next, want to know how we'll spend the day during our vacation in advance, et cetera); I imagine Fiveness has something to do with it...

3) Do INFPs "go with the flow" and "live in the moment"? I'm always thinking of the next step and, while I try my best not to interfere with anyone's plans, I desire to have some sort of control over my surroundings; that's part of why I thought I was an INTJ. I don't want to order people around, but I have an urge to draw certain boundaries. (Type Five again?)

4) Can INFPs be perfectionistic? Though I'm somewhat lazy, I sometimes unconsciously anchor my sense of self-worth to external elements (grades, for instance), and I'm quick to put myself down even when others think I'm better than I think I am (though I don't whine or wallow in self-pity, as that kind of annoys people and makes me feel too capricious and overemotional).

5) Does P/J play a big part in matters of procrastination? While I procrastinate quite a bit when it comes to schoolwork, I try to finish everything before the deadline to avoid humiliation and stern looks from teachers (and, of course, bad grades), and the schoolwork keeps haunting my thoughts, to the point of dampening the enjoyment of other activities (it's gotten to the point where I decided to read "for fun" only during vacations).

6) Do both INFJs and INFPs experience feelings of shame sometimes? I HATE HATE HATE disappointing people. I feel selfish and worthless when I do, and I try my best to repair the damage, even though sometimes I feel a bit like a lost cause...

7) Can INFPs be kind of neurotic? They are sometimes described as "placid until their values are violated", but I have a bit of shimmering anxiety about me, not exactly like an Enneatype Six's, but more like a strategic configuration of my personal resources ("What will be asked of me in the future?") or a corcern with my performance ("Am I being too selfish? Too lazy? Too cold? Too high-strung?"). I may appear aloof, but my mind is constantly whirring.

8) Do all INFPs "explode"? When I get rattled by something, my reaction is more subdued, but my body language is a treacheous mistress. I get cold-blooded, not hot-blooded, when I get confrontational.

9) Do INFPs always know what they want? Right now, I'm kind of "going with the plan" even though I'm unsure of whether journalism is a good career for me... I often ignore fleeting emotional states and keep my eyes on the (very blurry) "prize".

10) Are INFJs always meddlesome? While I often ask people whether they need help with something, I'm not exactly a "Mary Worth" kinda guy. Not very good at giving advice, whereas Fe-dom Dad is very good at giving unsolicited advice, which I admit I sometimes need.

11) Do some INFPs "toe the line"? While I don't always agree with the way some things are done, I'm not too eager to raise a ruckus or rock the boat unless I think it can change something. I do voice some complaints to trusted confidants, though, but it's mostly Te-ish stuff, like my issues with female shoes and dust covers.

12) Do some INFPs keep their eyes close to the watch? I feel a tad uncomfortable if I don't know what time it is, and I insist on using my alarm clock even on weekends.

13) Do INFPs often have "the courage of their convictions"? I'm not much of an activist, especially in a public platform. I'd rather detach and not be contentious; I'm more of a judge than an attorney, so to speak.

14) Do people of either type sometimes feel like their mind is "overflowing"? It's hard to find "inner peace" when my inner landscape resembles an Irish pub filled with drunken bohemians.

15) Do INFs withdraw under stress? I sometimes do, feeling kind of overwhelmed... My mind occasionally amuses me with fantasies of revenge. (Nothing too violent, though)

16) Can INFP sometimes mistype themselves as Ennetype Ones? For a pretty long time I thougth I was one, but I realized my coping strategy resembled more the Five's withdrawal. Maybe there's a One in my Tritype...

17) Are INFJs more likely to be "strategic" instead of impulsive and vice versa for INFPs? Like I mentioned, that's something I see in some fictional INFPs, and I'm a pretty deliberate guy...

18) Can you think of any fictional (or real!) INFP Fives? Silly, I know, but fiction is, to some extent, one of my doorways to reality.

Whew! That was quite a mouthful. But don't let it deceive you - I'm usually pretty laconic in RL!

Thank you. I'm happy to be in a place chock full of friendly and intelligent people!

 

[Elfboy]

it would help if you took a cognitive function test and posted the results