Trump vs. Biden

[ceecee]

Maybe I am being paranoid, but what are the chances of either a "slow moving coup" as Bill Maher puts it, or a secondary "alternative government" being established after inauguration day?

If people are so easily pulled into "alternative facts" (especially things as ridiculous as Q-Annon), it seems like accepting an "alternative government" falls well within their wheelhouse. They have their own wikipedia, their own news media, their own interpretation of history, even their own science (young Earth/flat earth, etc.). It seems like following the pattern of believing whatever is most desirable or what they wish to be true will just get worse and worse. There seems to be no way to break into the bubble, but there has to be for all our well-being.

I know people I care about who are in the bubble, and it feels scary for two reasons, 1) it feels like (as many have mentioned) like they've been pulled into a cult and there is no reasoning with them (they are operating out of truthiness and instinct) 2) Their cult has a lot of similarities to Nazis with their white supremacy(even among those who aren't white), authoritarian values (placing one-way loyalty to their "king" above global harm, concern for purity, nostalgia for a more privileged past...), and desire to thwart the will of a majority of people in their nation by any means possible.

So how do we pull people out of a cult like this? How can we bring them to working off a common belief of what really occurred and occurs in the world as we know it, and common understanding of truth and reality?

This is all a strain of cultural nationalism, imo it's the culmination of a country gone over the edge since 9/11 and Trump simply capitalized on it. There appears to be four types - (1) the disengaged, (2) creedal or civic nationalists, (3) ardent nationalists, and (4) restrictive nationalists Ardent nationalist make up about 24% going by this study.

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

Fetishizing the military and law enforcement, paid patriotism (NFL, MLB, college football), attacks on immigration and refugees, complete denial of the US creating the issues leading to those refugees to begin with, a real thirst to continue the US imperialism and exploration of every living thing on the planet for profit is not outside the realm of consideration and when there are policies created to do just that - you have a failed state. People will then be easily driven to believe in anything that sounds even marginally better. Like Trump and everything that goes with him.

How do you fix that? A good start might be to look at for profit health care and understand that it when you profit off life and death, you automatically create exclusion. As does nationalism itself. Because what we currently have is not working.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Maybe I am being paranoid, but what are the chances of either a "slow moving coup" as Bill Maher puts it, or a secondary "alternative government" being established after inauguration day?

If people are so easily pulled into "alternative facts" (especially things as ridiculous as Q-Annon), it seems like accepting an "alternative government" falls well within their wheelhouse. They have their own wikipedia, their own news media, their own interpretation of history, even their own science (young Earth/flat earth, etc.). It seems like following the pattern of believing whatever is most desirable or what they wish to be true will just get worse and worse. There seems to be no way to break into the bubble, but there has to be for all our well-being.

I know people I care about who are in the bubble, and it feels scary for two reasons, 1) it feels like (as many have mentioned) like they've been pulled into a cult and there is no reasoning with them (they are operating out of truthiness and instinct) 2) Their cult has a lot of similarities to Nazis with their white supremacy(even among those who aren't white), authoritarian values (placing one-way loyalty to their "king" above global harm, concern for purity, nostalgia for a more privileged past...), and desire to thwart the will of a majority of people in their nation by any means possible.

So how do we pull people out of a cult like this? How can we bring them to working off a common belief of what really occurred and occurs in the world as we know it, and common understanding of truth and reality?

This is an important question and I don't have an answer. I have noticed that there is a strong tendency to dig in their heels when encountering any pushback. Also, any information that is retracted or taken down is assumed to be "The Truth". This crowd has zero notion that information is removed because it is that bad and inaccurate. Anything that is withheld becomes orders of magnitude more tantalizing.

I don't really have an answer I feel certain about, but have been moving towards just allowing people to have their lies and consequences. I realize the innocent suffer as a result, so it's not a good answer.

I feel like people are operating like 13-year-olds, that mental development is arrested at about that point. When parents remove something to discipline a teenager, the indulged and rebellious ones will do it more, regardless of what "it" is. All of society is operating like this.

I think people are going to have to learn the hard way, but lots of innocent people will be forced to learn with them. I hope someone has a better answer.

 

[anticlimatic]

Here's an answer for you guys- climb down off of your sanctimonious high horses and realize the following:

1) If they're in a cult, so are you.

2) Now that you understand you're the same, whatever would get you to abandon your own convictions might work on them, so try that.

3) Finally grasp human nature with those big righteous brains of yours and move on to something productive in your lives.

 

[Jaguar]

Delightful logic:

If X is a serial killer, so are you.

 

[ygolo]

Here's an answer for you guys- climb down off of your sanctimonious high horses and realize the following:

1) If they're in a cult, so are you.

2) Now that you understand you're the same, whatever would get you to abandon your own convictions might work on them, so try that.

3) Finally grasp human nature with those big righteous brains of yours and move on to something productive in your lives.

To be clear, I am not talking about all Republicans, nor all people who voted for Trump, nor even people who like Trump.

I am specifically talking about people who believe that the mainstream sources of information have so much bias as to twist the reporting of facts with the specific aims to be against a particular person (in this case Trump). Facts, not color commentary and opinion being against him--the reporting of facts of who did what when and where being against him.

This notion has spread from mainstream media, now including even Fox News, to national intelligence people, including people Trump himself appointed, to election officials, many of whom were Republicans. There had already been people that believed things like evolution just being a theory, climate science being a hoax, Obama not being born in the US, that the moon landings were faked on a Hollywood set, and now even that Democrats have pedophile ring that eats babies. The pace of moving away from the mainstream understanding of reality is what is so alarming.

I am willing to believe that it is me who is in the cult, though keep in mind I don'e belong to a political party, and probably never will. I don't trust mainstream sources of information implicitly, but one has to start from somewhere when comes to the raw facts, and I'd prefer the scientific and medical journals, as well as news sources like the AP over InfoWars and Q-annon.

If you see my trust in scientific sources of information and the Associated Press over Info Wars and Q-annon as cult behavior, then please tell me how would you pull me out of the cult I am in?

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Don't mean to be a downer here, but I'm genuinely doubtful this problem is resolved without massive political violence. I don't know if it kicks off tomorrow or 20 years from now, but I suspect this right-wing fever dream will continue until that event. Worst-case scenario, the violence resolves into the right-wing winning, in which case the fever dreams last a long, loooong time.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Here's an answer for you guys- climb down off of your sanctimonious high horses and realize the following:

1) If they're in a cult, so are you.

2) Now that you understand you're the same, whatever would get you to abandon your own convictions might work on them, so try that.

3) Finally grasp human nature with those big righteous brains of yours and move on to something productive in your lives.

People who follow a leader to the point of risking their lives have an unhealthy allegiance. Just because one group does it does not mean everyone is doing it. I don't follow any person to the point of risking my life. I'm not worshipping and adoring anyone, including Biden.

"I know you are but what am I" isn't always an accurate assessment, but works great for immature conflict.

 

[Burning Paradigm]

Here's an answer for you guys- climb down off of your sanctimonious high horses and realize the following:

1) If they're in a cult, so are you.

2) Now that you understand you're the same, whatever would get you to abandon your own convictions might work on them, so try that.

3) Finally grasp human nature with those big righteous brains of yours and move on to something productive in your lives.

1) If I'm not attaching my allegiance to a leader or trying to pass off rigid, unsubstantiated talking points as an ideology, I doubt it. Sure, I admit, there are points I've found myself more enthralled by a leader or set of ideological values than I'd care to admit. But, sooner or later, their imperfections surface; I can't speak for others, but that's a sobering signal to pledge allegiance to evidence and morality, not people.

2) I can confidently say I've changed my mind painstakingly on many issues over the years by being asked pointed questions and shown evidence, and will probably do so again at other points in my lifetime. This might not be the case with all Trump supporters or Republicans, but there are a plethora of instances of that political demographic who get more reactive if presented with evidence or dismiss it as "fake news" or "deep state" or whatever. Definitely not saying leftists or left-of-center folks are immune from this; quite the contrary, the Democratic establishment and progressives are entrenched against one another at this point (maybe not to the point of conspiracy theories about the other, but still). I'm just saying this is not a universally applicable rule.

3) Cool.

 

[Totenkindly]

Funny how a troll for years on this forum still manages to wring endless serious responses out of other members.

I don't really see the point in investing well-thought and mature viewpoints to someone who has already proven over the years they have no real interest in engaging in good faith. It also normalizes the behavior.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Don't mean to be a downer here, but I'm genuinely doubtful this problem is resolved without massive political violence. I don't know if it kicks off tomorrow or 20 years from now, but I suspect this right-wing fever dream will continue until that event. Worst-case scenario, the violence resolves into the right-wing winning, in which case the fever dreams last a long, loooong time.

This is a depressing notion and many people desire violence. The U.S. bullying culture has been dialed up to 11 with Trump, and I can see those dynamics leading towards violence.

This will sound awful, but I think it is a reason to let people deny the virus and gather into parties. My heart breaks for the innocent and elderly among them, but to whatever extent the group gatherings are the same ones desiring violence, I say let them.

 

[Jonny]

Here's an answer for you guys- climb down off of your sanctimonious high horses and realize the following:

1) If they're in a cult, so are you.

2) Now that you understand you're the same, whatever would get you to abandon your own convictions might work on them, so try that.

3) Finally grasp human nature with those big righteous brains of yours and move on to something productive in your lives.

This is a weird post.

 

[The Cat]

This is a weird post.

and an ironic one.

 

[The Cat]

This is a depressing notion and many people desire violence. The U.S. bullying culture has been dialed up to 11 with Trump, and I can see those dynamics leading towards violence.

This will sound awful, but I think it is a reason to let people deny the virus and gather into parties. My heart breaks for the innocent and elderly among them, but to whatever extent the group gatherings are the same ones desiring violence, I say let them.

Pretty sure that's the general consensus with the GOP, Tsathoggua(or "Mitch" as he goes by in his current still froggy incarnation) seems like the kind of guy who considers "convenient" ways to get rid of dangerous animals with minimal effort on his part.

 

[ceecee]

This is a weird post.

It's pretty on brand for him.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Pretty sure that's the general consensus with the GOP, Tsathoggua(or "Mitch" as he goes by in his current still froggy incarnation) seems like the kind of guy who considers "convenient" ways to get rid of dangerous animals with minimal effort on his part.

I guess I don't really understand what you are saying. I don't think I'm aligned with the GOP, but at some point I leave people to their consequences. My only reason for pandemic precautions is to protect the innocent and vulnerable. The rest can have their consequences. We could have a different world if the extremist militias want to keep gathering together. Maybe there is a natural process at work - the universe rebalancing itself.

 

[The Cat]

I guess I don't really understand what you are saying. I don't think I'm aligned with the GOP, but at some point I leave people to their consequences. My only reason for pandemic precautions is to protect the innocent and vulnerable. The rest can have their consequences. We could have a different world if the extremist militias want to keep gathering together. Maybe there is a natural process at work - the universe rebalancing itself.

Not remotely suggesting you are. ime it's the kind of thinking from the people in charge that is already on the table. The best tools are the ones who put themselves away when theyre no longer useful.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Not remotely suggesting you are. ime it's the kind of thinking from the people in charge that is already on the table. The best tools are the ones who put themselves away when theyre no longer useful.

I think the current situation is going to kill off a lot of GOP supporters. Not the majority, but even like 2 percent of them could make a difference in future elections. The correlation between pandemic deniers and GOP supporters is significant. They aren't slowing down either. I've been getting emails to play a bunch of wedding gigs locally. Yeah right. People are gathering in hoards and a lot of people are going to die in the next three months.

I don't think the GOP wants their supporters to die, but that is what is happening.

 

[The Cat]

I think the current situation is going to kill off a lot of GOP supporters. Not the majority, but even like 2 percent of them could make a difference in future elections. The correlation between pandemic deniers and GOP supporters is significant. They aren't slowing down either. I've been getting emails to play a bunch of wedding gigs locally. Yeah right. People are gathering in hoards and a lot of people are going to die in the next three months.

I don't think the GOP wants their supporters to die, but that is what is happening.

I'm pretty sure these people arent as much GOP supporters as theyre Trump's cult. and the GOP is already losing control over them...

 

[ceecee]

I think the current situation is going to kill off a lot of GOP supporters. Not the majority, but even like 2 percent of them could make a difference in future elections. The correlation between pandemic deniers and GOP supporters is significant. They aren't slowing down either. I've been getting emails to play a bunch of wedding gigs locally. Yeah right. People are gathering in hoards and a lot of people are going to die in the next three months.

I don't think the GOP wants their supporters to die, but that is what is happening.

They don't care as long as they profit and maintain their superiority in this country. Conservatives/GOP/right wingers are I, The People - they always have been.

 

[Coriolis]

I'm pretty sure these people arent as much GOP supporters as theyre Trump's cult. and the GOP is already losing control over them...

This why, as I have said before, we need more parties. Split the GOP into the traditional defense hawk/fiscal conservatives and the Trumper populists. Also split the Democrats into the socialists and the centrists. With 4 parties no one can get the upper hand and compromise will be unavoidable. If the smaller groupings make parties like the Greens viable, well, even better.