Time travel and the Fifth dimension.

[Fluffywolf]

Time travel is one of many concepts I love to ponder on. So I'd like to share my view on time travel.


Explanation of dimensions and time travel.

3 dimensional
The present as we know it and perceive is 3 dimensional. Width, length and height. It is the now we live in. The simple representation fo 3d is the x, y and z axis existing in one point of time as we know it.

4th dimension
The fourth dimension adds a line from past to present to future along with the first 3 dimensions travel. As shown in this picture I just drew!

In the picture you see the x, y and z axis and the horizontal line represents the 4th dimension of time.

A common misconception is that the xyz is moving along the time axis, I do not believe that is the case. Time is a relative constant to any given place in space. However, comparing two seperate places in time, can show differences. Speed has proven this aspect of the 4th dimension. If an object travels fast for a long duration of time, time for the traveler as well as time for the non travelers have always remained constant. But comparing the two afterwards would show that in the traveler has experienced more time then the non travelers. The traveler has thus, relative to others, traveled forth in time.

A real life time traveler is the current record holder of a Russian that spend years on MIR, the space station. I can't recall the exact amount, but I believe he has traveled a full second into the future.

Peanuts, ofcourse. But how does one explain this?

Relativity theory mentions that the speed of light is a constant to the eye of the beholder. The speed of light is 299,792,458 metres per second. But suppose someone would travel half that speed, and someone behind the traveler switches on a beam of light. As the light passes the traveler, the traveler would still see the light moving 299,792,458 metres per second. As if he himself was still in space. So, how does that make sense?

Time, for a traveler, slows down. Not for the objects and himself traveling, but compared to everything that is not moving. Light should move half its speed, but as time is moving half the speed for the traveler, he still sees light moving at its full speed. As light is not affected by time as normal matter. Not until you reach the speed of light itself that is.


Traveling into the future.

So, this is already done, and is relatively easy to assume. When you are driving your car with the movement of the earth, you are very slowly moving into the future compared to someone standing still. Driving the other way, and everyone else is moving into the future, compared to you. It's all relative ofcourse, the person standing still or the person moving, both do not notice this difference in time. A clock on board a space station for a very long time compared to a clock on earth however will show slight differences, and that is where we can actually see it.

Traveling back in time.
This is where it starts getting interesting. We all know the grandfather paradox, saying that it is impossible. And logic would agree. However, a fifth dimension does make it possible. However impractical.

In theory it is possible, though it would require immense amounts of energy. But theoretically, moving faster then the speed of light itself however impractical, would allow as to flip our relative time to a negative time around us. And thus end up in a time before that of which we knew. We would dissappear from our time line, and after slowing down, re-appear on an earlier time. I read somewhere this is already possible with nano particles. That scientists have already been capable to move particles back in time, or rather said out of our time. Out of our time you say? Here's an explanation.

Suppose you lose someone close to you, you build a time machine and go back in time to save that person. The fifth dimension would be influenced and this would happen:

You would leave your timeline and go back to a different timeline. You will be able to save the person close to you, but there will also be a younger version of you. The timeline you came from will still exist on but without you, and the new timeline will have a different future with two of you!

So, how about sending a message to yourself? All good and possible, but as you are sending the message back in time, you would not cease to exist, nothing will change around you. To that you, nothing will happen. The message will travel along the fifth dimension to another version of you, it will create a new you as it were, a new universe, and he might very well live a much better life because of your message, or worse even, but you'll never know. Because if he sends a message along the fifth dimension, it will just go to the other seperate line again. Each time you send something back in time, it dissappears from your universe and enters a newly created one. It'd theoretically impossible to go back to the same timeline twice.

Suppose you send a message to 4am back in time, then you send a message to 3am back in time. The message you send to 3am back in time would be in a third timeline and will not receive the message you send back to 4am. There will be three seperate universes along the 5th dimension.

Why doesn't traveling forth in time affect the fifth dimension then? That is because traveling forth in time does not severe us from our time line. It merely shifts for a duration before it joins up again. The person inside the mir station was traveling in his timeline, along our timeline, until he stopped moving again and relativity got fused again. Traveling back in time, severes you completely, into a whole new timeline.

You are totally capable of killing your grandfather in theory. But it would only serve you not existing twice in the time line you travelled towards.

Is it possible for a living being to move faster then the speed of light? In theory, yes. In a closed compartment outside of external inteference or friction, it should be possible. Will traveling faster then the speed of light in fact move you to a time earlier to your known present time? It is possible. But it it also possible you experience time while the universe around you is entirely still. Ie. traveling along the null You experience time, the rest does not. You may travel for years, while the world experiences a blink of an eye. Ouch, wouldn't that suck. But theoritically, it is also possible to travel into the negative of the 4th dimension.


My conclusion as it stands now, on time travel. Is that I think it is theoretically possible. Without any paradoxial effects. (Paradox's are mere products of mis-understanding anyhow. The paradox itself is the greatest paradox of all.)

But time travel back in time has in no way practical uses. It has no methods of testing, there will be no way for us to know what effect it has on the fifth dimension. We can test the fourth dimension because of relativity but the fifth dimension is something we have no tools for measuring.

Thoughts?

 

[Ojian]

I've always been intrigued by this concept. Good post.

There was an interesting little animation created to explain concepts like this up to the 10th dimension. I think I found the right one:

Imagining the Tenth Dimension - A Book by Rob Bryanton

 

[Sentura]

so i read part of your post and got interest - and went on to see what theories exist on this type of science. i like your imagination of a "buffer" being created when traveling backwards in time, but i don't believe that it would be impossible to go back in "your own" past.

if there would always be a buffer universe which is used to go back in, then there too would be a probability of that being "your own" universe.

 

[jenocyde]

Did you ever read The Time Traveler's Wife? You might like it...

 

[Fluffywolf]

so i read part of your post and got interest - and went on to see what theories exist on this type of science. i like your imagination of a "buffer" being created when traveling backwards in time, but i don't believe that it would be impossible to go back in "your own" past.

if there would always be a buffer universe which is used to go back in, then there too would be a probability of that being "your own" universe.

Well, the reason I think it is impossible is because the fifth dimension you left from, exists, happened and can't be morphed into another 5th dimension. As if there is no 5th dimension but rather a lineair 4th dimension. You succumb to the paradoxes. In other words, if that is the case, time travel to the past is simply impossible. Time travel to the past is only possible if you can fold the fifth dimension. And thus create new universes, new timelines. And because of that it is highly improbable of one returning to ones own timeline.

If you do somehow store positions on your timeline, go back in time, and be able to get back to your own time. That would be fun! Because you could go back in time, do as you please, move back to your timeline as if nothing ever happened. Because all changes you made, are on a seperate timeline.




And no Jenocyde, I have not. I'll try to remember the title. (I'm rather occupied at the moment. )

 

[Serendipity]

But time is not linear.
There's millions of small dots. Like the big bang but instead of millions of particles everywhere; think infinitely small time-objects.
How do you know which dot you hit?

 

[Fluffywolf]

I know time is not lineair. I was just trying to make a point.

 

[Serendipity]

I know time is not linear. I was just trying to make a point.

Uh, oh. Right.

Sorry. Lack of sleep and caffeine in high doses and after-burn of weed.

But I would probably make the same mistake anyhow.

 

[EcK]

yawn.

ur graphics are very bad at representing what's actually going on, space time is one 4 (at least at our macro scale of everyday of interaction), use hypercubes or something.

Everything that does something in space time is more or less related to entropy.
You need a differential.
Differences in relative time between objets moving at some part of C from each other are just differentials.

without differentials u have no work, without work you have no time.

If the famed 2nd law of thermodynamics finishes its work on the universe, the whole system, and by that i mean the universe evens out.
neutral, no movement, no transfer of energy, no light, .. no time.

Seeing any quantifiable unit in the universe as something else than differentials evening out is just stupid.

to simplifie you could see time as the differential between the begining and the end of the universe.
Hence causality.
hence (for example )no travel back in time, because, again, of the one way ticket of the entropic principle

I didn't read ur thread btw so do tell if there was something interessant inside

love and hugs,
eck

ps: the whole part about travelling in the 'future' is obvious if you see space time as a REAL 4D construct (to make it easier u could see c as the limit of the time dimension and 'the universe' for the 3 others)
Differencials buddy, differentials.

pss: ow u could always use ur model but in infitely dense or not depending on continuous or discreet structure of space).
It could be used to ur everyday relative time diff between a body going <c and another.
But it doesn't work if you try to describe limit states (singularities)
meaning round numbers or 0.9 C = 0.9 space-time (think zeno's paradox and calculus' answer if it helps)

And it not "time travel to the future" for the LOVE OF SHIVA. If you travel in space u travel in time, it's nothing special.

 

[Fluffywolf]

It was meant to be an easy to follow basic representation of the idea behind it all. I had no intention of making the original post a work of scientific presicion. As I doubt there would be many here that would be interested in that or have the knowledge to understand that.

Besides, I'd have to write it in dutch too then because my scientific vocabulary in english is somewhat limited.

Anyhow, I read your points, but I you have to understand that I tried to approach this subject from the most basic point of view that is easy to understand for everyone.

Ofcourse time is not as simple as in my pictures. But the basics behind the principle of the fifth dimension can be based on them.

 

[EcK]

Well, you obviously don't know what ur talking about, since time is the 4rth dimension and there's no magical 5th dimension around as far as we know.

And I'm not really sure what u mean with ur whole 5th dimension thing.
If u see space time as a volume, with T modifying the overall shape while going from it's origin to it's limit for example, you have ur causality and general one-way entropy nailed together with differences in relative 'time'.

well u could always use a fifth dimension as a unidimensional structure going through space time and being the 'present'.
But that's just very useless, and has so many logical flaws I just can't see it working for now.
As long as there's a differential between creation and end of a system, and a C as a limiting speed for transmition of information, you will have what you call Time.
and differentials go one way, until the system is evened out, and we go back to the void/meta singularity or verse or whatever else we came from

 

[Aleph-One]

This thread is so full of shit that it's in danger of exceeding its ability to support itself by neutron degeneracy pressure.

 

[Fluffywolf]

The fifth dimension is an explanation of how time can run differently at different points of space.

It is a proven fact that time is not a constant factor in space. Most notably by the timelapse aboard the mir station and earth itself in comparison to one and other.

Einstein's relativity theory supports all this. Time for a moving object is slower then time for a fixed point in space. For the moving object time still moves as quickly as for the still point in space. But in comparison to one and other, there is a difference.

Einstein explained how this effect affects the observation of light itself. If someone is moving at half the speed of light and someone is standing still shines a light past the target moving at half the speed of light. Both observers see the light travel at the same velocity as if they were still in space. This is because light is unaffected by these influences of time and space. The difference is that the if the observer standing still uses a stopwatch and notes down a duration of 1 minute. The observer traveling half the speed of light would observe only 30 seconds on his stopwatch. During the same time, relatively speaking. So when the moving observer is observing the light, it is actually observing the light going twice as fast. (relatively speaking.)

In that regard, the fifth dimension is already a proven fact up to some point.

It explains that time is a constant, but relative to the point and of space and the speed of the traveler.

This also offers theories for black holes.

My representation of the fifth dimension is admittedly a very crude one, but a based representation of what could happen if you fold the fifth dimension in order to go back in time. (Rewind the time around the observer)

It would not alter existing time of where you came from, but in my opinion, it would create a new timeline. Hence the lil drawing of a sort of two dimensional representation of time.

Allowing for parallel universes to exist.



And Aleph-one, OFCOURSE, most of this is pure guess work. As far as I know, we have been unable to travel back in time after all so it's all theory. You do not have to agree with me. But I find saying my idea is ridiculous is a bold statement, especially if you have no arguements to back up your claim. I'm saying that you should either explain yourself or don't bother posting at all.

 

[EcK]

ok, before I start bashing u again, which isn't my goal in life. btw.

who's theory is that? (no i don't need big names to be impressed I just want to see the refs and see if it's just ur interpretation of it that's kind of foggy or if it's something else)

 

[Fluffywolf]

Mostly based on Einstein's relativety theory, most of the details I mentioned are mine lol. But I've seen read stuff about it here and there, and most of the fifth dimension theorists have similar views. And just tried to envision what the most logical assumption (for me) would be to explain the facts and theories concerning this subject.

Also, the mir example is a proven fact that time in one point of space and time in another point in space is nto neccesarily a constant in comparison to one and other, if the two points in space are moving at different velocities for example. Supporting the relativity theory.

 

[EcK]

Dude, 1) I probably understand that theory better than you do, so stop repeating it like I don't, it's bothering me : P I understand einstein's theory pretty well thank you.

2) I'll have to look into it, multidimensional space are hard objects because evolution has us used to work on 3 spatial space in time.

It's often tempting for physicists to add extra dimensions to 'explain it all' by the way. So any of these extra dimensional theories need some good studying.

Feel free to explain ur ideas indepth, I get\appreciate those better than the usual foggy semiconcepts people throw at me.

 

[EcK]

I just don't see yet why 2 degrees of liberty for time would work better than 1.

explain?

what issue does it fix?
With C as a limit for information transmission there was no problems\paradoxes with relative time as far as I can see.

 

[JocktheMotie]

The 5th dimension is simply the 2nd dimension of time, in the Standard Model. It was also used as an attempt to unify all the forces because you could get 3 forces to adhere to symmetry in 5 dimensions, but to be honest it's mostly crap. In string theory the 5th dimension is just another spacial dimension only relevant for things the size of the strings, and maybe the graviton, which is one explanation as to why gravity tends to be a much weaker force than the other 3, as it is said to "leak" into the higher spacial dimensions and lose its potency.

The 5th dimension represents all possible arrangements of the universe.

It's often tempting for physicists to add extra dimensions to 'explain it all' by the way. So any of these extra dimensional theories need some good studying.

Precisely. "Oh wait, my theory/math doesn't work. I KNOW! LET'S ADD ANOTHER DIMENSION!"

 

[EcK]

The 5th dimension represents all possible arrangements of the universe.

Then u don't need one if u already have the 4d in a closed system.
I mean, if u go for a volumetric\geometric approach and see time as the evening out of differentials, time as a one way ticket this side of reality seems logical.

Maybe if u'd go for a multiverse, but then the 5th D would probably be the metaverse where the multiverse is situated
And i'd have alot of things to say (about mass and acceleration) about it but i have to go out with the dog for now : P

 

[Fluffywolf]

I probably understand that theory better than you do, so stop repeating it like I don't, it's bothering me : P

Dude, all that says about you is that you're assuming more then I am assuming, which would suggest I am more objective when it comes to theorising. Well, and that you are extremely cocky, bwehe.

Anyhow, seriously though, I'm toying around with possibilities for time travel. With degree of liberty I assume with this you mean my theory of multiple 'timelines' existing apart from one and other is more degrees of liberty. Without more than one degree of liberty, time travel would be... well.. impossible so pointless to argue about. What would be the fun in that!

The thing is, neither theory can be proven (As far as I have read up on the subject, it's ALL still theory and nothing is conclusive), so why not meddle in the most promising theory when trying to prove or disprove it?