[Type 4] Thinkers as type 4s

[mintleaf]

Do you think it's possible, and why?

 

[Such Irony]

Yes but it's not very common. I can't articulate why very well other than that there are two different personality systems. MBTI T/F deals more with how you prefer to make decisions while enneagram deals with your underlying motivations.

 

[SD45T-2]

I suspect Roger Waters is an INTJ 4w5 (4-5-8 tritype) sp/sx or sx/sp.

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

I'm a 4w5, and I generally test fairly strongly as a Thinker on the Myers-Briggs. I'm starting to suspect I'm likely Fi-dom, but for the record, a 4 can at least test as a Thinker (and I feel more like a Thinker, too, based on MB criteria).

 

[Azure Flame]

ISTP's and INTP's have inferior Fe, which often times serves a sort of "hyper emotionalistic" state. They can have very powerful ups and downs simply because their feeling functions are primitive. So I can see how this can apply to E4's. However most of the time I find thinkers to be 5w4.

 

[click crash boom]

Do you think it's possible, and why?

Possible.

 

[Stephano]

I think it's possible when someone is balanced at F/T.

 

[Amargith]

[MENTION=7300]Kra[/MENTION]

Aint this up your alley?

 

[Entropic]

Already wrote a post about this but from a socionics perspective:

The way I understand this is that people will adapt a cognitive preference and motivational preference that suits them depending on the environment in which they are situated. To separate the two would be to separate them only in how they deal with different dimensions of human behavior and thought, but I honestly think the interplay is far more complicated than this.

I think there is a correlation between cognitive preference and enneagram core type in that a certain cognitive preference will lend itself towards picking up specific enneagram core types over other core types. Consider for example someone who values Fe in the ego block. So assuming the person's childhood experiences lines up with the withdrawn triad, the person is far more likely to develop into a type 4 or 9 than 5. With that said, I only speak of tendencies here as I do not think it is impossible for an SEI or IEI to be a type 5, but the likelihood of a person who values such cognition seems to overall also seek or be drawn towards coping mechanisms that fits their way of cognitively understanding the world. Type 5 being a competency type situated within the head center and whose primary focus is that of intellectual analysis and understanding of the world would thus fit someone who favors logic in the ego block more than someone who favors ethics. With that said, again, only tendencies, I don't like to draw hard lines here.

I also think enneatype descriptions themselves kind of suffer from a feedback effect where they are pigeonholed or stereotyped around a certain cognitive output, so there is also the belief that a type 5 cannot be logical or a thinker. This also partly misses the point what enneagram is about though, since they are simply motivations of how we cope in the world.

I was thinking of how an ESI-Se type would be like internally as a 5 and what aspects of life they would focus on and try to understand, if so. With Fi leading, I can imagine that an ESI could be very concerned about finding or understanding morality, both in terms of who they are but also when it comes to others. To seek understanding in what is ethical and unethical and to have the power to universally apply these ethics.

In the end, I find that regardless of cognitive preferences and enneatype, one will see how both interplay in a way that simply makes sense within the individual regardless if one thinks that it is a (un)common combination or not, assuming they are properly typed. This is because they are in my opinion both the result of the same source, that is the person who express this kind of cognitive preference and enneatype motivations. As such, they will be very interwoven within the individual where it will simply make sense, as the enneagram will lend itself and support the favored cognitive perspective.

 

[LittleV]

Yes, with practice. It’s more likely for those who aren’t neurotic.

 

[mintleaf]

The way I understand this is that people will adapt a cognitive preference and motivational preference that suits them depending on the environment in which they are situated. To separate the two would be to separate them only in how they deal with different dimensions of human behavior and thought, but I honestly think the interplay is far more complicated than this.

I think there is a correlation between cognitive preference and enneagram core type in that a certain cognitive preference will lend itself towards picking up specific enneagram core types over other core types. Consider for example someone who values Fe in the ego block. So assuming the person's childhood experiences lines up with the withdrawn triad, the person is far more likely to develop into a type 4 or 9 than 5. With that said, I only speak of tendencies here as I do not think it is impossible for an SEI or IEI to be a type 5, but the likelihood of a person who values such cognition seems to overall also seek or be drawn towards coping mechanisms that fits their way of cognitively understanding the world. Type 5 being a competency type situated within the head center and whose primary focus is that of intellectual analysis and understanding of the world would thus fit someone who favors logic in the ego block more than someone who favors ethics. With that said, again, only tendencies, I don't like to draw hard lines here.

I also think enneatype descriptions themselves kind of suffer from a feedback effect where they are pigeonholed or stereotyped around a certain cognitive output, so there is also the belief that a type 5 cannot be logical or a thinker. This also partly misses the point what enneagram is about though, since they are simply motivations of how we cope in the world.

I was thinking of how an ESI-Se type would be like internally as a 5 and what aspects of life they would focus on and try to understand, if so. With Fi leading, I can imagine that an ESI could be very concerned about finding or understanding morality, both in terms of who they are but also when it comes to others. To seek understanding in what is ethical and unethical and to have the power to universally apply these ethics.

In the end, I find that regardless of cognitive preferences and enneatype, one will see how both interplay in a way that simply makes sense within the individual regardless if one thinks that it is a (un)common combination or not, assuming they are properly typed. This is because they are in my opinion both the result of the same source, that is the person who express this kind of cognitive preference and enneatype motivations. As such, they will be very interwoven within the individual where it will simply make sense, as the enneagram will lend itself and support the favored cognitive perspective.

Thanks for sharing this.

Do you think that cognitive preferences are formed independently of environment? Everything seems to suggest that enneatypes aren't, so I wonder if this is one of the major distinctions between the two systems.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I'm a 4w5, and I generally test fairly strongly as a Thinker on the Myers-Briggs. I'm starting to suspect I'm likely Fi-dom, but for the record, a 4 can at least test as a Thinker (and I feel more like a Thinker, too, based on MB criteria).

This is extremely common for Fi-dom, especially INFPs. MBTI criteria for Feeling reeks of Fe.

------

No, I don't think it's realistic for a T-dom to be an e4. An INTJ, maybe.

I don't think any MBTI type can be any enneagram type because I see them as different aspects of the ego, but aspects which have major overlap, and some MBTI types highly contradict an enneagram type when it comes to what the ego is based on.

e4 is associated with poor sensing & thinking. It doesn't work with the type's ego fixation to use impersonal thinking much or to be very in-touch with concrete reality.

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

This is extremely common for Fi-dom, especially INFPs. MBTI criteria for Feeling reeks of Fe.

Yes, I get this impression, which is another reason why I think it's the most likely thing. I struggle with INFP, descriptions, however, to the point I'm finding the whole thing a bit worthless.

 

[small.wonder]

I think it's possible for a 4 to be a Thinking type but if so, their Feeling would not be far behind. I believe my Thinking and Feeling are pretty evenly matched, I'm just not sure which slightly wins out.

I am very confident in my Enneagram typing, but don't have enough understanding of Myers Briggs yet to be confident of my type there.

I've tested as both INTJ and INFJ, but more times the latter. I've not totally decided which type I am, though I am absolutely Introverted and Judging. I question iNtuition a little because I'm quite detail oriented, though I do have the tendency to want others to "just get to the point already".
[MENTION=18576]Sanjuro[/MENTION], I can relate to your frustration. I've gone back and forth in my mind, reading through the IxxJ types. I always come back to INFJ and INTJ, but I have qualms with parts of both. I suppose that's natural though-- we are not cookies (from type cutters), after all.

 

[mintleaf]

What about an F-dom being a type 5? I've seen INFPs typed as 5s here, and somehow it seems more likely than a T-dom being a 4.

And it seems that introverts are more likely to have an enneagram typing that appears to be in conflict with their Myers-Briggs type. Why do you think that is?

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

[MENTION=18576]Sanjuro[/MENTION], I can relate to your frustration. I've gone back and forth in my mind, reading through the IxxJ types. I always come back to INFJ and INTJ, but I have qualms with parts of both. I suppose that's natural though-- we are not cookies (from type cutters), after all.

Agreed--if I'm an INFP, I'm a pretty piss poor exemplar of it, in a lot of ways (not ALL ways, obviously--I've got my trusty Fi-mask and strongly believe we're all individuals and all that good stuff). We're definitely not cookies, though.

Have you looked into the cognitive functions?

 

[Entropic]

People forget that feeling doesn't mean emotional as much as it means being attuned to the feeling content either around oneself or within oneself. That's why it's a judgement function because feeling is rational just like thinking. People keep forget about this, just like they forget that enneagram types are about motivations, not whether one is emotional for example. A type 4 is simply someone who is mostly motivated by envy in one's life. Doesn't say anything about this being rational, logical, irrational or emotional. You can rationalize the feeling of envy several ways or you might do it just barely if at all, if one leads with perception.

 

[Standuble]

I don't think there is anything stopping T's being 4's but two things would make it challenging from what I understand 1) Envy born from the perception that another possesses the "missing piece" you lack. If I'm not mistaken that would require F as you are determining an object's worth and determining it as personally valuable 2) You have an intuitive sense of identity which you can use to determine whether you are deviating from who you are when you take actions (which more or less crosses over with Fi.)

 

[Azure Flame]

I know plenty of INFJ 5's and INFJ 8's. So I don't think enneagram is necessarily linked to type. However it is possible that enneagram is influenced by type due to your function layout and how you interacted with your parents. I think I read somewhere that enneagram is more of a nurture thing and not so much a nature thing.

I also know some ISTP's and INTJ's who are really damn intense people. I'm still not sure if it has to do with E4 or Sx dom. But I originally thought they were INFJ just based on the intensity of their emotional inner worlds.

5w4's are pretty intense as well. So that's something else to consider. I've met some seriously intense INTP 5w4's, for example, my brother and szadslaw beksinski.

 

[Standuble]

I know plenty of INFJ 5's and INFJ 8's. So I don't think enneagram is necessarily linked to type. However it is possible that enneagram is influenced by type due to your function layout and how you interacted with your parents. I think I read somewhere that enneagram is more of a nurture thing and not so much a nature thing.

I also know some ISTP's and INTJ's who are really damn intense people. I'm still not sure if it has to do with E4 or Sx dom. But I originally thought they were INFJ just based on the intensity of their emotional inner worlds.

5w4's are pretty intense as well. So that's something else to consider. I've met some seriously intense INTP 5w4's, for example, my brother and szadslaw beksinski.

I find it unlikely that you know a lot of INFJs and even more unlikely you know a lot of INFJ fives and eights. If you do know that many INFJs I reckon many are mistyped nines - fives are misidentifications and the eights getting their wing confused with their core.