These S people with their tiresome case against N

[Ghost of the dead horse]

S advocates on this board expect praise and recognition, yet fail to give any real credit to N side.

One often repeated ridiculous comment, in it's entirety, is that N theories are useless. Well, du'h, I find your short, unconstructive, VAGUE, factless, tactless comment useless. Next time you feel the urge to say that, rather specify your concern, if you are so much after that appreciation thing.

Sorry, can't make out what the hell you want. I'm fine with not giving a shit about your pesky troubles, should you fail to co-operate. If you would be looking for some common ground, fine, I'm ok with that too.

This is not a sports event or a riot , learn new one-liners to chant.

 

[Ivy]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone here say that N theories are useless. Can you link me to any posts that say this?

 

[ptgatsby]

I was going to say that.... but the irony of someone posting;

Well, du'h, I find your short, unconstructive, VAGUE, factless, tactless comment useless. Next time you feel the urge to say that, rather specify your concern, if you are so much after that appreciation thing.

Was too much for me not to snipe at the author, so I held back. I'm just hoping he's an S, otherwise... well... not much I can say to it.

 

[cafe]

The Ss take crap from the Ns all the time on this forum. I don't see any problem with them doing a little trashing back.

 

[ygolo]

S advocates on this board expect praise and recognition, yet fail to give any real credit to N side.

One often repeated ridiculous comment, in it's entirety, is that N theories are useless. Well, du'h, I find your short, unconstructive, VAGUE, factless, tactless comment useless. Next time you feel the urge to say that, rather specify your concern, if you are so much after that appreciation thing.

Sorry, can't make out what the hell you want. I'm fine with not giving a shit about your pesky troubles, should you fail to co-operate. If you would be looking for some common ground, fine, I'm ok with that too.

This is not a sports event or a riot , learn new one-liners to chant.

Frankly, as only recently self-identifying as N, I still feel a rather combative tone in comments like this (and I don't believe that perception is ever going away).

But as someone who has frequently heard people (In Real Life) deriding "theory" as "useless", I empathize with the some of the poster's sentiment.

Theory is only applicable when applied. Applications can go wrong due to lack of understanding of the theory(I would say this is usually the case in my experience) as well as having a poor theory.

When people mis-understand, mis-apply, an then deride the theory for being poor, I get rather annoyed.

I think it is possible to discuss our differences in reasonable and thoughtful ways without giving up content in our grievances. This, I believe, is the role of logical argument (which can certainly contain emotions as part of the content).

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

Frankly, as only recently self-identifying as N, I still feel a rather combative tone in comments like this (and I don't believe that perception is ever going away).

But as someone who has frequently heard people (In Real Life) deriding "theory" as "useless", I empathize with the some of the poster's sentiment.

Theory is only applicable when applied. Applications can go wrong due to lack of understanding of the theory(I would say this is usually the case in my experience) as well as having a poor theory.

When people mis-understand, mis-apply, an then deride the theory for being poor, I get rather annoyed.

I think it is possible to discuss our differences in reasonable and thoughtful ways without giving up content in our grievances. This, I believe, is the role of logical argument (which can certainly contain emotions as part of the content).

That is quite a reasonable view. What I don't find reasonable is to automatically ridicule points of view that the person doesn't even bother to examine. It is this perceived behaviour that inspired me to return the favor in this thread. I'll dig up some anti-theory posts for quick summary.

 

[sundowning]

S advocates on this board expect praise and recognition, yet fail to give any real credit to N side.

One often repeated ridiculous comment, in it's entirety, is that N theories are useless. Well, du'h, I find your short, unconstructive, VAGUE, factless, tactless comment useless. Next time you feel the urge to say that, rather specify your concern, if you are so much after that appreciation thing.

Sorry, can't make out what the hell you want. I'm fine with not giving a shit about your pesky troubles, should you fail to co-operate. If you would be looking for some common ground, fine, I'm ok with that too.

This is not a sports event or a riot , learn new one-liners to chant.

Aspiring to be a writer for The Onion, are you?

 

[FemMecha]

I think it is possible to discuss our differences in reasonable and thoughtful ways without giving up content in our grievances. This, I believe, is the role of logical argument (which can certainly contain emotions as part of the content).

Yay! Go ygolo!

The most mindless, predictable step in the evolution of this forum is to have two categories of posters take sides against one another in a prejudicial face-off. Based on rumblings and comments so far, i would say the N-S divide is the most likely candidate.

I really like this site and the people here. I am so hoping it doesn't fall into a mindless trap of prejudicial divides. I'm a rather strong iNtuitive, but value knowing about all kinds of mental processing. I have many Sensors i wildly admire. Even more important than everyone being 'friends', is everyone being willing to use reason when discussing differences so that we don't revert to Neanderthal cyber-smack downs.

 

[Athenian200]

S advocates on this board expect praise and recognition, yet fail to give any real credit to N side.

One often repeated ridiculous comment, in it's entirety, is that N theories are useless. Well, du'h, I find your short, nonconstructive, VAGUE, factless, tactless comment useless. Next time you feel the urge to say that, rather specify your concern, if you are so much after that appreciation thing.

Sorry, can't make out what the hell you want. I'm fine with not giving a shit about your pesky troubles, should you fail to co-operate. If you would be looking for some common ground, fine, I'm ok with that too.

This is not a sports event or a riot , learn new one-liners to chant.

I understand your concern, sometimes Sensors can do that, but it isn't their fault. You really have to be careful to make what you say applicable to their reality, otherwise it will irritate them, because they want to deal with reality, not theory, and having to entertain pure theory with no basis in observable reality isn't something they relish. But if you want to make your theories useful, you have carefully and non-judgmentally listen to their criticisms to refine your idea and make it useful. (unless they just trash it without even entertaining it at all, in which case you are totally justified in ignoring them and moving on to someone else.)

The thing is, the Sensors on this board feel very judged and defensive because of their past treatment at the hands of INTP's and other Intuitive types who didn't care about their concerns. It's important to remember that we are trying to draw in more Sensors so we can analyze the inter-type dynamics and behavioral tendencies in a forum context more precisely, and if we just judge them and send them away, we'll never get to study their internal functioning the way we need to if we are to understand them and relate to them more productively.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I understand your concern, sometimes Sensors can do that, but it isn't their fault. You really have to be careful to make what you say applicable to their reality, otherwise it will irritate them, because they want to deal with reality, not theory, and having to entertain pure theory with no basis in observable reality isn't something they relish. But if you want to make your theories useful, you have carefully and non-judgmentally listen to their criticisms to refine your idea and make it useful. (unless they just trash it without even entertaining it at all, in which case you are totally justified in ignoring them and moving on to someone else.)

The thing is, the Sensors on this board feel very judged and defensive because of their past treatment at the hands of INTP's and other Intuitive types who didn't care about their concerns. It's important to remember that we are trying to draw in more Sensors so we can analyze the inter-type dynamics and behavioral tendencies in a forum context more precisely, and if we just judge them and send them away, we'll never get to study their internal functioning the way we need to if we are to understand them and relate to them more productively.

I agree with your concerns, as they are my concerns too. That's why I am being so practical in showing in clear terms the kind of commentary I consider too demeaning. Judging from responses, I am sure that I didn't come as misunderstood or too complex this time. If you as an S feel that you have now been harshly criticized, welcome to my world. Mission accomplished.

I have already been shown the error of my ways, and I've heard it, so I felt obliged to return the favor, as I said. Isn't that what love is all about?

I can picture a new forest growing from the ashes of this virtual forest fire that our N/S debate has been. All the crap thrown in here serves the purpose as a fertilizer, too. I'll put away my gasoline canister now and start up treeplanting. With this mutual understanding we have, there's nothing we can't achieve.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone here say that N theories are useless. Can you link me to any posts that say this?

I just browsed thru so many posts that my head is aching.. mostly of N's beated into thinking they're inferior. Few S have made strong arguments against the N-type theorizing while appearing as S themselves, so data on that is kind of thin.

Ss beating Ns and Ns beating themselves..

Intuitives are isolated from reality but don't see it as an unhealthy way of life.

1) For every good theory that NTs seem to come up with, you have to wade through hundreds of crack brains ideas and concepts.

On INTs:

1. over-theorizing and over-analysing instead of making decisions and act upon them
2. basically no or little practicality

..a perfect example of how Ns are inferior to Ss. Over application of dreamy systems that drift away from the fundamental theories and applications.

Views about Ns by Ss outside these boards:

My MIL's answer to being introduced to the idea of N verses S was to ask "So what can they do to fix these N types?"

Recommended anti-N reading

Here's real insight to the dynamics of this war. What are the root causes?

S types most often complain about how N types act and think and tell them their way is wrong and that they need to change.

N types most often on these boards complain about S types complaining about them and the S types attempting to be controlling in this way and the S types lack of interest in trying to understand the N type.

Yet when the N types do that, they are told they are being too much like the things they don't like about S types. So N types must accept without complaint the complaints that S types send their way or else they are just as bad?

I think that N types express a great desire to understand the S types and these boards are full of that if one actually wants to see that side of things insead of just focusing on the frustrations and vents. Speaking for myself however, I admit that I get mighty weary of always in my offline life being the one who makes allowances for S types and trying to understand their POV. It seems like it is that way. The ones I know have zero desire to make allowances for my POV, to them when I show my real self I am most often just a silly dreamer who has a warped view on things.

I admit I have some really extreme cookie cutter versions of S in my life and it is unfortunate for me that I am way over on the N scale, which in my deepest mind I do see as a sort of disadvantage in dealing with other people and I am working on trying to develop my S traits more fully.

Self-beating N in motion

Meantime, I also keep in mind that (in my experience) Ss tend to have a lot of disdain for ditzy, schizy, whiny, N dilettantes. From the Sensor point of view, Ss are the sober, experienced adults, while Ns are the idealistic starry-eyed teenagers of the world.

What hope of improvement we can maintain

On the positive side, some Ss continue to post over here, perhaps to broaden their own horizons and learn about Ns, and perhaps to remind Ns that a real world exists out there and recount some first-hand experience to help Ns bring their theories back down to earth and anchor them in reality. And in the meantime by participating on a mixed-type message board Ns presumably indicate that they are open to opposing views, at least in theory.

If the quantity of Ss ever reaches critical mass, we'll probably see more name-calling rather than less. As I said above, in my experience Ss tend to have a lot of disdain for ditzy, schizy, whiny N dilettantes. It doesn't always come out as irritation; sometimes Ss feel positively paternal and protective toward the loopy, occasionally-brilliant, occasionally-vulnerable Ns. But inevitably there is going to be irritation and defensiveness, and frictions on the message board are going to lead to abuse of stereotypes and some fireworks at times.

Hopefully in the long run everyone can remember that this is a mixed-type message board, understand that the traditional stereotypes aren't going to disappear anytime soon, not get too worked up when the stereotypes are abused, and remember to stay open to other viewpoints.

Life is hell..

 

[proteanmix]

Santtu you're funny.

 

[Ivy]

AYFKM?

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

AYFKM?

Yes and no.

Is there anything else how I may be of assistance?

 

[ygolo]

<Lots of links to sources of his sentiment on this forum>

Santtu you're funny.

AYFKM?

This type of reaction irks me. God knows how long Santtu spent digging up those links.

And he gets, "You're funny", and "Are you f***ing kidding me"?

He obviously had real grievances, with real feelings behind them (some of which I share).

Marginalization and ignorance of input can often be worse than direct insults.

Why can't we simply level with each other, and share our grievances instead of avoiding them or insulting each other?

 

[Ivy]

Sorry, ygolo, I guess I just got something completely different out of all the snippets he found, and I really can't figure how he got what he got. They were completely without context, but I read them all the first time so I remembered the context for most of them, and for the most part they were not anti-N sentiments in context. I find myself wondering if we're reading the same forum.

 

[ptgatsby]

Sorry, ygolo, I guess I just got something completely different out of all the snippets he found, and I really can't figure how he got what he got. They were completely without context, but I read them all the first time so I remembered the context for most of them, and for the most part they were not anti-N sentiments in context. I find myself wondering if we're reading the same forum.

*shrug* They are all linked, one can get the context.

My first quote is from a thread complaining about biases against Ss. The second is from the "Name 3 things that suck about INTs".

Far as I can tell, 90% of the quotes are from only those two threads... that's completely out of context IMO.

 

[ygolo]

Sorry, ygolo, I guess I just got something completely different out of all the snippets he found, and I really can't figure how he got what he got. They were completely without context, but I read them all the first time so I remembered the context for most of them, and for the most part they were not anti-N sentiments in context. I find myself wondering if we're reading the same forum.

I do find it hard to believe that this forum is anti-iNtuitive in general. I suppose he (and I) was projecting based on Real Life experience.

EDIT: I went back and reviewed the context, and I can see what he was getting at still. Granted I haven't been on this forum that long, and only know some of the context. But it seems to me, that there is some Political Correctness style motivations behind many of the posts. I don't encourage or condone MBTI-type based stereotypes, but there is a heavy-handed avoidance of issues going on for sure.

 

[Ivy]

I do find it hard to believe that this forum is anti-iNtuitive in general. I suppose he (and I) was projecting based on Real Life experience.

That's fine. I've experienced both forms of discrimination in 3D, having been pigeonholed as both a dull non-artist who Just Doesn't Understand AND a head-in-the-clouds dreamer with a faulty connection to the real world. This is the peril of being fairly balanced on the N/S axis, I suppose. But Santtu very specifically singled out THIS FORUM for his criticisms, and he didn't hold back. Then we come to find out that what he was reacting to was mostly either tongue-in-cheek or an effort to recalibrate the pendulum to accomodate sensors in an intuitive-dominated environment. I stand by what I said at first, that I don't believe I've ever seen a sincere, unmitigated attack on intuitives here. I've seen several sincere, unmitigated attacks on sensors, though.

Maybe there's a language barrier? Or maybe it's some kind of ineffable forum nuance that it takes awhile to become fluent in, so at first it looks like N-bashing? I don't know.

 

[ygolo]

Maybe there's a language barrier? Or maybe it's some kind of ineffable forum nuance that it takes awhile to become fluent in, so at first it looks like N-bashing? I don't know.

Maybe. Reading it, I get this pattern.

1. N complains about S based on personal experiences (perhaps generalizes to all S's, but often it is just interpreted that way).
2a. Rare occurrence. S responds about general poor characteristics of N and aims it at the specific N.
2b. More common. Ns in PC manner aims weird attacks at specific N. (A similar thing also seems to happen to Sona, who is self-typed as an S for other things)

Certainly, the excerpts were selected to illustrate this pattern, and there may be others (The blatant anti-S post put forth to start this thread for example). But that is honestly the way I have read some of the posts.