[ENTP] The role of argumentation in ENTPs

[Udog]

What role does argumentation play with ENTPs? Digesthissickness had a really neat quote that has me thinking on the topic of argumentation, what it means for different people, and its potential roles in a relationship:

if you're anything like me, arguing is almost intimate, a way to grow closer to the one you love, and that's why the fights that crop up over and over again suck the intimacy out of it. i like a fight to be productive in some way, or it's just draining.

To some extent I understand this. Argumentation brings things to the surface, and resolving an area of conflict is extremely gratifying. Also, banter and play verbal sparring can be fun as well, but I draw the line when I notice my punches are starting to land a bit too hard.

So in what ways do ENTPs argue to try and bond with someone? What goes through your mind as you enter your banter or your fight? Do you enjoy it? When does it quit being enjoyable and become serious or draining?

ENTPs in particular interest me because of the playful, almost detached enthusiasm they can sometimes argue with others. Also, on a personal real life level, because I've noticed a couple of times they'll keep on amping up the insults until they finally go too far. Like, almost as if it's not real until they do some damage...

 

[sculpting]

I'll take a stab-please dont kill me entps.

They like to play and win in a fun way, so the argument is a bit of a contest. To one-up the other person, in a fun way of course (at least they think so...)

They like to Ne ideas and flip them around and toy with them. They are very agressive and pointed in how they explore ideas, to the point of being argumentative. They flip the idea, poke it, punch it, maul it, find holes in it. If it was your idea.... well it still had holes. And it's lots of fun then to turn the mauling of ideas into a contest they can win. It's a game.

My crazy ENTP friend pointed out the other day that "there's no crying in science!" after he got in trouble for hurting someone else's feelings in a meeting. He was right, and they were wrong, however it came across as very argumentative to the ISTJ he was working with.

Me and my favorite ENTP often go to a BBQ place and have screaming debates about whatever topic we are on. We have had to stop many times and tell other folks we are not fighting, and that we are actuually having fun. Don't normal people debate vigourously for fun?

I haven't been in a relationship with an entp so I can only leave that for those folks to take a stab at.

 

[Synarch]

ENTP have trouble being vulnerable. Really, truly vulnerable. They also have trouble expressing tenderness. Consequently, they must relate in ways that avoid these two issues.

The ability to argue without rancor is an implied intimacy. So, in a way, if an ENTP can argue with you, it is a sign of closeness, provided there is no meanness, of course.

 

[marmandahalf]

What goes through your mind as you enter your banter or your fight?

Honestly, nothing goes through my mind, because I'm not making a decision when I "enter" the banter/fight. It's as natural a way of responding for me as looking up when someone says my name.

 

[lifeintechnicolor]

I only argue with the ones I hold dear to my heart. Cause you know. All that lovey stuff is just gross. To me, it shows that I respect them enough to challenge them. I only challenge the ones I think can handle it.

Unless the person is ignorant. Then I'm totally calling him/her out, respect or not. It's an easy win; how can I resist?

 

[jenocyde]

I don't feel anything when I debate - I just collect information. It's just exploration.

I get to see what makes someone tick, how they process information and how they apply that information. And I also get to learn something more about an actual topic. Anyone who can teach me something is regarded very highly in my eyes. After arguing, I can feel tremendously close to someone - sometimes it's almost the same feeling you have after sex.

It stops being enjoyable when someone takes an issue personally and gets upset, or refuses to listen to another point of view. If we find ourselves heated and repeating statements over again - it's clearly over.

 

[Synarch]

I don't feel anything when I debate - I just collect information. It's just exploration.

I get to see what makes someone tick, how they process information and how they apply that information. And I also get to learn something more about an actual topic. Anyone who can teach me something is regarded very highly in my eyes. After arguing, I can feel tremendously close to someone - sometimes it's almost the same feeling you have after sex.

It stops being enjoyable when someone takes an issue personally and gets upset, or refuses to listen to another point of view. If we find ourselves heated and repeating statements over again - it's clearly over.

You feel NOTHING? No thrill? No excitement? Bullshit.

 

[jenocyde]

You feel NOTHING? No thrill? No excitement? Bullshit.

I didn't think I needed to explain that part of it. Sorry haven't slept in days...

I mean to say I feel nothing as far as anger or judgment - no negative feelings. People often accuse chronic debaters of always being negative, or looking for problems. And it's not that way at all. Of course it's thrilling! That's why it feels so intimate afterward, as if we had sex... Getting into the recesses of someone's mind is almost the equivalent of exploring their body in the same way. The push and pull. It's exhilarating.

 

[Synarch]

I didn't think I needed to explain that part of it. Sorry haven't slept in days...

I mean to say I feel nothing as far as anger or judgment - no negative feelings. People often accuse chronic debaters of always being negative, or looking for problems. And it's not that way at all. Of course it's thrilling! That's why it feels so intimate afterward, as if we had sex... Getting into the recesses of someone's mind is almost the equivalent of exploring their body in the same way. The push and pull. It's exhilarating.

Yea, the push / pull. It's like a dance.

 

[Sniffles]

They like to Ne ideas and flip them around and toy with them. They are very agressive and pointed in how they explore ideas, to the point of being argumentative. They flip the idea, poke it, punch it, maul it, find holes in it. If it was your idea.... well it still had holes. And it's lots of fun then to turn the mauling of ideas into a contest they can win. It's a game.

Yeah that's the problem, it's just a game to them often. They lack an actual point, so all their twisting and whatnot is nothing more than nonsensical sophistry that rarely contributes anything worthwhile to the discussion.

Sorry if you want me to look at things in a different way, then by all means present an actual point. Don't waste my time with bullshit.

 

[professor goodstain]

Not necessarily. It starts as quite serious then the argument gets exausting due to the stupidity and becomes what may be seen as trivialized then assumed by the other as a game. And those assumptions deserve trivialization.

 

[digesthisickness]

i wasn't aware that to find out the role of argumentation for an ENTP was to ask an NF. but, i'm not surprised a few of them would think that.

 

[Sniffles]

i wasn't aware that to find out the role of argumentation for an ENTP was to ask an NF. but, i'm not surprised a few of them would think that.

Yeah yeah I know, cause NTs deal with facts while us NFs are emotional and deal with values.

 

[professor goodstain]

Yeah yeah I know, cause NTs deal with facts while us NFs are emotional and deal with values.

I'm not a full E ntp but i'll meet you half way on that.

 

[Sniffles]

Well the hilarious thing to me is that while NTs like to tell themselves that, too often in discussions I find them rather lacking in facts and committing logical fallacies one after another. They especially enjoy committing the fallacy of Argumentum ad logicam; which is to dismiss an argument simply because it's not logical.

 

[substitute]

I'll take a stab-please dont kill me entps.

They like to play and win in a fun way, so the argument is a bit of a contest. To one-up the other person, in a fun way of course (at least they think so...)

In summary I'd say you're half right. Yes, I like to argue and it's fun and both the means and symptom of intimacy for me.

The half where you're not right is this strange obsession people think ENTP's all have with one-upping or winning, in the bald sense of the words. Just because sometimes I do one-up or win, it doesn't mean it was my sole intention or objective. In reality I couldn't give a shit who "wins" and thoughts of win/lose couldn't be further from my mind when I'm trying to communicate my thoughts to someone. I just want them to be heard and understood and the way I test whether they're understood is by cross-questioning to find out why you disagree with me, if you do.

In effect, by giving you my mind, I'm giving you me. And I'm asking for yours - I'm saying I want you. When you take that as some egotistical and infantile deliberate point scoring bullshit, it's like the biggest insult ever.

 

[professor goodstain]

Well the hilarious thing to me is that while NTs like to tell themselves that, too often in discussions I find them rather lacking in facts and committing logical fallacies one after another.

Is that how you feel? ENTP decides from NE. Take a gander at your decision making function.

 

[jenocyde]

Yeah that's the problem, it's just a game to them often. They lack an actual point, so all their twisting and whatnot is nothing more than nonsensical sophistry that rarely contributes anything worthwhile to the discussion.

Sorry if you want me to look at things in a different way, then by all means present an actual point. Don't waste my time with bullshit.

Kinda like you're doing now?

 

[substitute]

Yeah yeah I know, cause NTs deal with facts while us NFs are emotional and deal with values.

You know, I thought she just meant that if you want to know how an ENTP sees something, don't ask an NF cos it's like asking a dog why a cat likes mice.

 

[Ardea]

They especially enjoy committing the fallacy of Argumentum ad logicam; which is to dismiss an argument simply because it's not logical.

I've been contemplating this lately... and yes, you're right. There are just somethings that can't be explained with logical... Scary part is that.... we know this... and often use this with our own deeply held values.



I argue to communicate. True back-forth dialogue. It means, I'm listening, and wanting to understand. I MOSTLY argue with those I care about. Arguing takes time, effort, attention... Think about it.

And yes, the winning thing... so worth it. Those that know me and care about me... will often let me win when I'm just arguing for fun. It's a multifaceted thing.