The Murder of George Floyd & Subsequent Protests/Riots

[anticlimatic]

Libertarian VP candidate Spike Cohen made a good argument about this. A lot of white business owners are assuming looting is being primarily done by protesters. Cohen argued that police forces are so preoccupied with sending the bulk of their officers to meet and provoke people exercising their 1st amendment rights, leaving storefronts and shops essentially unprotected from opportunistic looters who know the police are likely too busy to respond to a bunch of burglary calls. Maybe if the police actually did their jobs and let those protesters exercise their constitutional rights, we'd see far less looting.

On another note, Congressman Amash just introduced a bill that would end qualified immunity if signed into law.

I didn't even know what qualified immunity was until all of this, but I am definitely on board with getting rid of it.

 

[Red Herring]

Yes it is possible to have this kind of police but you are forgetting a few things. Many is USA like it like this or at least they like the mechanisms that make this environment possible. In other words:



1. You can't really have the second amendment of this scale and have German style police. Police by definition needs to have a leverage in order to do their job but here without military style upgrades that simply isn't possible. Especially since the crime itself has military style upgrades/equipment.

2. In Europe there is healthcare that is defined as human right and thanks to that our minds can be more at peace. We aren't running from death and certain bankruptcy most of the time.

3. In general we have more of a say in the terms of multi-party democracy, media or workspace dynamic and therefore the force usually isn't the first impulse.



Therefore this goes much deeper than just "training" since law of the land is fundamentally different.

Oh, I know. But I didn't want to get into the whole "here's what else is done better elsewhere" thing and while all of this (and some other even deeper aspects) play a role I do think that policy and training can make a difference already.

Obviously there is more at play here.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Oh, I know. But I didn't want to get into the whole "here's what else is done better elsewhere" thing and while all of this (and some other even deeper aspects) play a role I do think that policy and training can make a difference already.

Obviously there is more at play here.

Well, as soon as you mentioned "German cops" you have already kinda lost regarding the "I want to be polite" attitude. But ok I don't want to drag this through the thread either since I am basically just passing by.



In other word this mess and protests that came out of it are first news on all of my local news sources for days. What is kinda atypical but telling.

 

[ceecee]

Libertarian VP candidate Spike Cohen made a good argument about this. A lot of white business owners are assuming looting is being primarily done by protesters. Cohen argued that police forces are so preoccupied with sending the bulk of their officers to meet and provoke people exercising their 1st amendment rights, leaving storefronts and shops essentially unprotected from opportunistic looters who know the police are likely too busy to respond to a bunch of burglary calls. Maybe if the police actually did their jobs and let those protesters exercise their constitutional rights, we'd see far less looting.

On another note, Congressman Amash just introduced a bill that would end qualified immunity if signed into law.

He was talking about that at his virtual town hall about two weeks ago. I see it passing the house but it will never get through the senate, although I wonder why more people don't follow him - he's good at explaining in a solid and understandable way.

He's also introduced bills pertaining to civil forfeiture which everyone should be on board with and no cash bail. That's passed in municipalities but nothing higher. And it never will as long as the senate exists in its current form. For profit prisons, police unions, and law and order GOP donors will make sure of it.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

He was talking about that at his virtual town hall about two weeks ago. I see it passing the house but it will never get through the senate, although I wonder why more people don't follow him - he's good at explaining in a solid and understandable way.

He's also introduced bills pertaining to civil forfeiture which everyone should be on board with and no cash bail. That's passed in municipalities but nothing higher. And it never will as long as the senate exists in its current form. For profit prisons, police unions, and law and order GOP donors will make sure of it.

It's more likely we'll see civil asset forfeiture done away with with dems in power, but only slightly more likely. I say this because I've seen the dems take power of all branches of government in my home state and a majority of them have done nothing about it in the 2 years they've been in power, nor did any of the major democratic candidates elected to office here include this issue in their platforms when running. They've had every opportunity and done little.

It's why I voted libertarian in the last state election. The Libertarian gubernatorial candidate was the only one who mentioned ending this practice as a major part of his platform, as well as being the only one in opposition to a proposed pipeline--either crickets or vocalized support for continuing these came from the GOP and dems in my state, so fuck em both because these are pretty important issues to me and I'm not going to side with the dems (or the GOP for that matter) just because they happen to speak the wokist language and offer empty lip service whilst continuing to act against public interests. When the democrats start putting their money where the mouths are and doing more than just lip service on the topic of police overreach, then I might be more enthusiastic and support them. When the GOP actually acts to limit government overreach (instead of only advocating it when the democrats hold majorites), then maybe I'll consider supporting some of them. But up until now, a lot of them of both parties want to continue supporting the old tough-on-crime approach while only effecting surface reforms that have done little to curb police misconduct or improve relations between police and marginalized communities.

further, if the democratic party wants me to get on board with even considering supporting gun control, they can't expect my support as long as they continue doing nothing to limit the militarization and overreach of police.

Dems need to earn my support this year, and so far they are failing at doing this.

Correction: I did a little more research and found that a Republican of all people introduced a bill that would at least limit civil asset forfeiture to cases where people have been convicted. The democratic controlled subcommittee tabled it. Imagine that. It wasn't perfect--I'd rather just end it all together, but it would be a start in ending a practice that most definitely affects marginalized peoples less likely to be able to afford good legal representation--but dems could have sent it on to the governor for signature with their majority and they didn't. Not the first time this has been attempted here, but every time it has been killed, regardless of which party controlled the legislature. To our state democrats' credit, they have mostly supported reforms to eminent domain procedure in our state. To our state republicans' credit, they were also responsible for introducing the eminent domain reform bill. Credit where credit is due..

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I didn't even know what qualified immunity was until all of this, but I am definitely on board with getting rid of it.

Even if that was the only major reform we saw this year, it would go a long way in limiting police overreach. It would be a good start, then we can all hash out how to demilitarize and limit police power later on.

 

[anticlimatic]

Even if that was the only major reform we saw this year, it would go a long way in limiting police overreach. It would be a good start, then we can all hash out how to demilitarize and limit police power later on.

Solid plan. Sign me up.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

There's a graphic video embedded in this article but people should watch it, to understand why the police are out of control. They claimed the old man slipped and fell but in actuality, they shoved him hard and he fell, cracked his head open and while blood was pouring from his head, they walked on by.

Here’s Graphic Video of Buffalo Cops Shoving a Protester They Say “Tripped and Fell” – Mother Jones

I tried not watching this, because I have a soft spot for the elderly and can't even, but it was auto-playing in too many places yesterday and was practically unavoidable. I'm glad at least I'd read he was in stable condition before seeing it.

Two officers have been suspended. I'm disgusted by how all of them kept right on walking (it looks like one guy wanted to stop and check on him but his co-worker stopped him?). I'm trying to reserve judgment/acknowledge there might be some reason I don't know - but at the very least, it clearly isn't true that he simply "tripped." He was pushed.

NPR: Officers suspended after man, 75, shoved and hurt on video

 

[rav3n]

I tried not watching this, because I have a soft spot for the elderly and can't even, but it was auto-playing in too many places yesterday and war practically unavoidable. I'm glad at least I'd read he was in stable condition before seeing it.

Two officers have been suspended. I'm disgusted by how all of them kept right on walking (it looks like one guy wanted to stop and check on him but his co-worker stopped him?). I'm trying to reserve judgment/acknowledge there might be some reason I don't know - but at the very least, it clearly isn't true that he simply "tripped." He was pushed.

NPR: Officers suspended after man, 75, shoved and hurt on video

Yes, they were suspended pretty quickly. Sadly, all 57 members of the Emergency Response Team resigned in support of the two officers so this points to them not seeing anything wrong with violently shoving a non-violent 75 year old man, causing him to fall to the ground and crack his head open. This also reinforces the exact reason why people are protesting police brutality because of their use of excessive force where it's becoming more obvious as the protests continue, that it's an institutional problem, not the random bad cop. Cops are likely being trained to use excessive force, perhaps not in every department across the country but in too many of them.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Just fyi, anyone with access to HBO streaming (though I'm sure clips can be found on YouTube), there's a show called Wyatt Cenac's Problem Areas, and his very first show - a couple years ago - is half about police issues in Minnesota. It mentions "character-based hiring" (wasn't especially convincing) and several people are interviewed. It isn't particularly in-depth, but it's interesting to see how this issue was perceived a couple years ago.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Yes, they were suspended pretty quickly. Sadly, all 57 members of the Emergency Response Team resigned in support of the two officers so this points to them not seeing anything wrong with violently shoving a non-violent 75 year old man, causing him to fall to the ground and crack his head open. This also reinforces the exact reason why people are protesting police brutality because of their use of excessive force where it's becoming more obvious as the protests continue, that it's an institutional problem, not the random bad cop. Cops are likely being trained to use excessive force, perhaps not in every department across the country but in too many of them.

Yeah, looking at that video, I really don't understand how it's possible that those two weren't clearly in the wrong. I understand that it must feel like they're being chased by townsfolk with pitchforks simply for being police officers - but when it comes to that incident? It's just hard to believe.

 

[rav3n]

Yeah, looking at that video, I really don't understand how it's possible that those two weren't clearly in the wrong. I understand that it must feel like they're being chased by townsfolk with pitchforks simply for being police officers - but when it comes to that incident? It's just hard to believe.

The man was obviously saying something to them but in no jurisdiction is it okay to violently assault someone for saying anything. If they're hiring cops who are that neurotic, they shouldn't be cops. Can you imagine if this happened if the guy who shoved the elderly man wasn't a cop? The assaulter would be prosecuted for aggravated assault since it's obvious the man is elderly hence has frail bones and potentially for manslaughter, if that elderly man dies. He'd also be wide open to an enormous civil liability suit.

 

[Tellenbach]

I'm fine with getting rid of the police as long as they let law-abiding citizens (and armed neighborhood militias) defend themselves with whatever means necessary, including the use of lethal force to protect property.

Alternatively,we can privatize the police force. Let cities hire someone like Bezos or Musk to devise plans to reduce crime. They'd probably do a much better job and far more cheaply.

I'm also fine with letting Batman do his thing.

Those who advocate defunding the police with no alternatives are either criminals or idiots.

 

[anticlimatic]

Some topic pertinent reading material if anyone is interested.

 

[Jonny]

This is a response I had to someone talking about how all the complaints about Trump are because of his words and not his actions. Ignoring for a moment the misleading claim that he doesn't do anything worthy of criticism, the idea that words don't have an impact on society is flat out wrong.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

You gave 100 dollars to BLM? Dude. Why? Why do you feel personally responsible if you don't feel like apologizing? Apologizing is typically something we do when we feel personally responsible for a problem.

Dude, you said "apologize for other people". I'm not apologizing for them. I'm apologizing for myself. Hence, personal responsibility. Yes, i do think I bear some responsbility for this. I'm either part of the solution or I'm part of the problem. I know I haven't been part of the solution; I acted as though it was something I didn't need to think about much because it didn't affect me.

I knew it was going on, and I did nothing.

In my opinion, that's a moral failing. I don't give two fucks about apologizing for Bubba in Alabama or Officer Krupke or whoeever.

 

[ceecee]

1,000 people in the US die every year in police shootings. Who are they? - News @ Northeastern

African-Americans are at greater risk of being killed by police, even though they are less likely to pose an objective threat to law enforcement, according to new data-driven research by Northeastern professor Matt Miller. Hispanics are also more likely to be victims of police shootings.

The Northeastern-Harvard study combs through shooting deaths by police across 27 states in 2014-15, based on details culled from police and medical-examiner reports by the relatively new National Violent Death Reporting System. Overall, close to 1,000 people are shot to death by police officers in the U.S. every year, according to a database maintained by the Washington Post.

 

[???]

This might have already been talked about, but I haven't followed the protests much lately because it all seems so fucked up in so many ways on each side that I wanted to tune it out, especially with Covid and how shit this year has been (except it was/"still is?" a good time to buy certain stocks at a low), and I just got caught up with some youtubers I subscribe too and hearing this ->

has me more than concerned, especially when the right wing media has been painting these protestors as terrorists and talking about how they attacked Trump's secret service and shit and justifying what Trump did in Lafayette Square.

I just want to rant for a bit. I'm just so done with Trump. I want him gone. Even if he was/is arguably a great President, I still think he is completely amoral (I think this would be obvious, but apparently it's not) and it pains me to see someone like that with so much power and notoriety "leading" my country. I'm not a Democrat and I hate Biden, but I hate Trump soooo very much, especially now...I'm going to have to turn to the dark side and vote Democrat this election! What the hell is going on anymore?

 

[Red Memories]

I tried not watching this, because I have a soft spot for the elderly and can't even, but it was auto-playing in too many places yesterday and was practically unavoidable. I'm glad at least I'd read he was in stable condition before seeing it.

Two officers have been suspended. I'm disgusted by how all of them kept right on walking (it looks like one guy wanted to stop and check on him but his co-worker stopped him?). I'm trying to reserve judgment/acknowledge there might be some reason I don't know - but at the very least, it clearly isn't true that he simply "tripped." He was pushed.

NPR: Officers suspended after man, 75, shoved and hurt on video

As someone who has really strong feelings about the elderly needing aid and protection, this pisses me off beyond recognition... thank god he is okay... but what the actual fuck. and another article I saw tonight where they are like "we were only following orders"

SO DID FUCKING NAZIS AND SHIT THEY'RE STILL FUCKING EVIL. THAT ISN'T A FUCKING REASON TO ACTUALLY DO THAT OH MY GOD YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE BRAVE AND RESILIENT GET SOME FUCKING BALLS AND BACKBONE AND STAND UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

So the death of a repeated felon sparks what people are calling an ‘uprising’ and riots so severe that they have put a curfew in place ofr the first time in my 37 years of existence.

Meanwhile a completely innocent man is shot ( but survives) inside his own home, and his wife (GF?) is murdered in her bed during what is essentially breaking and entering by Police and NO ONE is fucking talking about that?

This country has a serious issue with sympathy fo the devil. The deranged and violent, the drug addicts. We have so much love and mercy for them. Those who just dealt a crappy little hand in life but do their best to contribute to society? Well, they knew what their issues and just need to deal with them on their own .

God I fucking hate the world.

I don't think it's really just about George Floyd. It's about everything else that was going on up to that point. George Floyd was just the straw that broke the caeml's back. It's not that he was deemed 'more deserving" of attention. I don't think it worked that way.

As for your second point, do you think that if people didn't talk about police brutality, do you think suddenly people would care more about disability rights or healthcare costs? I don't.

Actually, I'd argue that it's precisely because people are divided along racial lines that we have to pay an arm and a leg if we actually happen to have health problems.