The ESFP "stupid" myth.

[Tabula]

My little sister is as ESFP as one could possibly be ...
She knows in which ways to conduct herself to create exactly the effect she is after, or to get exactly what she wants, and she knows that people often underestimate her - she just enjoys proving them all wrong.

When she's "on" she's ON and when she's not, fuck everyone and what they think. She's smart and she knows it, and she will choose who, when, and in which context that becomes known. She gets along with everyone for this reason, and can do just about anything she wants to do. Teachers loved her, kids loved her, adults, everyone.

This is something I've seen in my EstP brother also, and a few SP friends I have had over the years. It is one of the things I admire most about them.

I think the "dumb" perception might have more to do with the kind of relationship you have to them, the setting, and who you happen to be with than for them truly being "dumb." You might just not be privileged enough, or around them in varied enough sorts of situations to see the other sides of them.

The way my sister says things, sometimes, could give the impression of her being "ditzy" or "shallow." She's bouncy, is really into appearance, and loves to go out with friends all the time. When she's out at a party (which she is a lot of the time) she's there to have fun, not to talk about literature. All you have to do to know she is not truly dumb, ditzy, or shallow, is to change your setting to a museum and listen to her speak...

 

[Offog]

IQ is a measure of abstract problem-solving skills. That INTs tend to have developed these skills more than ESFs shouldn't surprise anyone. It is NOT a measure of intelligence, which is the general ability to learn.

 

[Litvyak]

ESFPs don't start a whinefest if they're not the cleverestest while discussing an intellectual topic like most INTx's I know.
They also have other priorities in life than constantly absorbing useless shit like indifferent drones.

I actually consider them to be more in touch with reality and closer to a natural state of self-appreciation, and thus, more 'intelligent' in many ways.

 

[Pand0ra]

This made me laugh. I only know one ESFP and he is not known for being bright. It's not that he doesn't have a brain, he just doesn't seem to use it as required. But then I am not stupid enough myself to think this is the same for all ESFPs. It makes sense that those characters fit into that personality type, but in my view I don't think it's a dig at the type..........

 

[King sns]

I've always thought of ability to solve abstract problems a natural talent rather than an acquired skill. Also, isn't critical thinking and ability to solve problems a key measure of intelligence? If not, what is? (I know there are other ways to measure it/ and different forms of intelligence.. BUT.....this is definitely key in my book.) It is not type related.

(This was in response to Offog.)

 

[Litvyak]

he just doesn't seem to use it as required.

Required by whom? You? The academic community? People have a brain to use it as they please.
Free thinkers are usually not the ones who sit in a half lit office trying to figure shit out, by my definition.

 

[ColonelGadaafi]

I think people who think that personality is causitive of low intelligence, have low reasoning abilities= low intelligence. (see how easy that was).

 

[Pand0ra]

I meant 'as required' to be happy. He gets himself into trouble. He makes himself unhappy by dating girls who hurt him, over and over. Oh and he spends all his money on drugs. Lovely guy, just doesn't think so much. But that is irrelevant really and nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. In fact, I'm not sure I was even trying to make a point, more thinking....freely...

 

[Pand0ra]

Doesn't have anything much to do with ESFPs btw, as I only know one (outside of fiction!) so couldn't possibly know whether this claim of stupidity is true. However I would agree that you can NEVER judge intelligence *based* on personality type. Maybe someone should start an 'Are all INTJs evil' thread..............?

 

[Offog]

I've always thought of ability to solve abstract problems a natural talent rather than an acquired skill. Also, isn't critical thinking and ability to solve problems a key measure of intelligence? If not, what is? (I know there are other ways to measure it/ and different forms of intelligence.. BUT.....this is definitely key in my book.) It is not type related.

You can improve your abstract problem-solving abilities with practice. That's a pretty good indicator that you're dealing with a skill set.

Intelligence is impossible to measure directly, and IQ tests make a very problematic substitute.

For those who are interested -- some further reading.

 

[prplchknz]

Omething about this thread seems to always attract the most disgusting examples of dogmatic adherance to biased facts as if specific members are so miserable that they are grasping at straws to prove that they are better than someone else... In other words, this thread always shows us who the stupid trolls are :rolli:

but I am better than someone else.

 

[Perch420]

You still haven't answered my question, by the way. Do you think all types have the same average IQ? If not, then you're agreeing with me; that personality determines interest and lifestyle, which in turn determines IQ (A physicist uses his/her abstract reasoning skill much more often than an athlete, which means the physicist is more likely to do well on an IQ test, which tests primarily for the type of thing which the physicist does on a day to day basis: abstract reasoning.)

 

[Perch420]

I think people who think that personality is causitive of low intelligence, have low reasoning abilities= low intelligence. (see how easy that was).

Personality isn't causative of and doesn't absolutely determine your intelligence. That would be absurd. It does, however, loosely determine the kinds of things and activities a person would enjoy. If a person practices a skill for a long period of time, they become more proficient at it. I don't understand what I'm saying that's so offensive and illogical.

The ability to critically think and reason is predominantly environmentally acquired. If I remember correctly, only something like 4.4% of your IQ is determined by your genes. (Children of intelligent parents tend to be intelligent as well, but this is mostly due to the stimulating environment the parents provide.) So what's the problem?

An introverted person probably is not going to socialize as much as an extrovert and therefore will have a weaker grasp of the subtle nuances of social interaction that an extrovert would. Is that incorrect? If not, then why is it wrong to say a person who is introverted and intuitive is more likely to have an interest in reading, science, or mathematics, all of which require some degree of CRITICAL REASONING, which, JUST LIKE IN THE CASE ABOVE, WILL BE WEAKER IN PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIFFERENT INTERESTS. There are always exceptions. Mitch Hedberg was very introverted but mastered the art of speaking in front of a crowd. I'm done with this. If you disagree with me, you're wrong.

 

[Perch420]

Doesn't have anything much to do with ESFPs btw, as I only know one (outside of fiction!) so couldn't possibly know whether this claim of stupidity is true. However I would agree that you can NEVER judge intelligence *based* on personality type. Maybe someone should start an 'Are all INTJs evil' thread..............?

Nobody is saying that ALL of one group is something. Members of certain groups have PREDISPOSITIONS to CERTAIN TRAITS. Not all INTJs are "evil", obviously, but they are more likely than, say, ESFPs, to put less of an emphasis on the ethical implications of their plans and ideas. Most are driven and their ambitions tend to overpower them and make them "power hungry". All of this could be considered "evil". INTJs are more likely to have "evil" qualities than ESFPs. Would you disagree? Would you say that an INTP has just as much of an ability to preform in front of a crowd than an ESFP? This whole debate is incredibly stupid.

 

[Offog]

I feel dirty.

 

[prplchknz]

I made one for INFPs http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43031&p=1472635#post1472635

 

[miss fortune]

I feel dirty.

Then chew some Orbit!

 

[Ivy]

Removed some inflammatory posts entirely- saw no reason even to move them to Off Topic Posts.

Please refrain from making personal attacks, and note that this includes personal, targeted responses to the authors of arguments you think are lame. This means you.

 

[INTP]

You still haven't answered my question, by the way. Do you think all types have the same average IQ? If not, then you're agreeing with me; that personality determines interest and lifestyle, which in turn determines IQ (A physicist uses his/her abstract reasoning skill much more often than an athlete, which means the physicist is more likely to do well on an IQ test, which tests primarily for the type of thing which the physicist does on a day to day basis: abstract reasoning.)

ill give you an example

you know that people generates kind of roles to people that they interact with. some people lean more to these roles of other people and some people take the individuals more into consideration when interacting with them. either way everyone generates some sort of roles to people that they interact with. i could make a test and measure how strongly people think these other people as individuals compared to thinking others as roles that they serve.

lets call it 'individuality strength' and shorten it to IS. lets measure it as putting the average IS of people to value of 100, and imagine that rest will fall into something to value of 80-140.

now you might see that this measure has nothing to do with MBTI, but you might find some correlation with MBTI and IS.

lets imagine that people with high Fi generally has high IS score, but Fe users might score high on IS also, but not just that often.

so even tho you can find some correlation with IS and MBTI, they measure totally different things. it would be stupid to say that Fe users suck on IS, because its not impossible(or even all that uncommon) that Fe user would score high on IS, and many of them would score high on IS, its just more common for Fi users to score high on IS.

its the same with IQ and MBTI, they measure totally different things, so its stupid to say that ESFPs have low IQ, because thats not true, there are ESFPs who have higher than average(100) IQ, and they arent even all that rare. even tho N types are most represented on people with 135+ IQ, it doesent mean that ESFPs have low IQ.

if you dont get it after reading this, you are a hopeless case

its the same when you compare big 5 to MBTI or eysencks model and MBTI or pretty much anything that measures different things than MBTI

 

[Elfboy]

well, let's see, the S is rather obvious (I mean, your stereotypical idiotic character is certainly not going to be an N) as far as EFP is concerned, Es are considered less intellligent because they talk more and seem to think less. Feelers are considered less intelligent than Thinkers because they're less analytical and Ps are considered less intelligent because they are more impulsive (if anything, the opposite might be true. perceivers are more adapt at thinking and doing at the same time. this necessetates being able to process information quicker than a J would have to. this is simply a speculation though)