[Traditional Enneagram] The effects of IV & wing on Enneagram type manifestation

[Earl Grey]

I somewhat wonder how much each Enneagram type is actually tied to certain traits, like say, introversion/extroversion.

For example, 8w9, is described as calmer, more introverted, even superficially 9-like (for an 8). E3 sp (which is countertype for E3), especially 3w4 is described to be more perfectionistic, introverted, superficially 1-like and more introspective (while 3w2 soc the stereotypical E3). sp 4s are prone to mistype as E1 due to being high idealists yet being tempered by sp. Being soc dom 5 is described to seem almost scattered, 7-like while say, socializing.

Pay in mind that this is purely external appearance, and the core motivations/main type remains the same- but the point being is that due to say, the instincts working seemingly against what is described to be the natural pull / motivations of the type, it would manifest differently, 'atypically', and diverge from the common descriptions of the type- which is where things get interesting. That being said,

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1) If you are countertyped, how do you think it affects how you behave and extravert your types, if at all?
2) How much do you think your wing affects the manifestation of your type, or how your type works?
3) Do you relate to the stereotypical descriptions of your type out there (countertype or not)?

Notes:
- This is for core types only;
IV (instinctual variants) will not differ across the tritype, because IVs are basic instinctual pulls that characterizes how you see the world, what you seek.
- It may or may not relate to MBTI;
Each theory is a typing system on its own right, one of cognition and one of motivation, it does not 'balance out' each other (eg: "I type as Introvert in MBTI, so it makes my 8 calmer") even if there might be overlap. However, it would be interesting to see those who have types such as being an MBTI Introvert while being E8 core, which according to theory, 'does not make sense because 8s are extroverted' (and you're welcome to add to this), or even Perceiving 1s.

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To help, here is a full list of each type and their IV manifestation, as well as what their countertypes are:
Enneagram Theory: The Cutting Edge of Our Subtype Knowledge According to Claudio Naranjo - The Enneagram in Business

Countertype shortcuts:
Sexual: 1, 5, 6
Self-preservation: 2, 3, 4
Social: 7, 8, 9

 

[misfortuneteller]

The 8w9s is described that way due to ISTPs and INTJs that keep wanting to be them. 8's of either wing are only ExTx's.

 

[misfortuneteller]

The 3w2 is generally more outgoing because they seek success+lovability. They can't afford to let a moment slip and they have much easier time integrating due to their super ego wing.

 

[misfortuneteller]

I'm guessing you mean countertyped as in having a conflicting wing which would applies to 4w3s and 9w8s as well? It doesn't feel too great when you are surrounded by a bunch of people that only accept the 9w1 as 9s.

 

[Earl Grey]

I'm guessing you mean countertyped as in having a conflicting wing which would applies to 4w3s and 9w8s as well? It doesn't feel too great when you are surrounded by a bunch of people that only accept the 9w1 as 9s.

No. The instinctual variant, like in the link and shortcut I posted above.

 

[Maou]

Sp 4.... [suffering intensifies internally] It inverts a lot of the behaviors 4's do, and turns them against the self. Kinda like extream psychological masochism I guess. I have the tendancy to ostracize myself, then work my way in I think. #thestruggleisreal

I am not sure on wing, but 5 makes more sense I think. It holds back the tendancies some 4's have with the expression of suffering and projects strength/apathy instead. But at times it does come out, and gives me that cp6 vibe with tempered reactivity.

I don't relate a lot, because they generally are not for sp. The only time I find 4 descriptions I relate to, are in tritype descriptions. But the core identifying fears/desires are the same for me.

Im tired so I might have not thought this through enough.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I'll let you know when my Ne lets me makes sense of all my layers and peculiarities, but I mostly relate to the Sp and Sx descriptions of both 4 and 5. I'm socially introverted and withdrawn, but clearly cognitively extroverted and more focused on perceiving, collecting, and exploring. In short, I might be an ENxP but a 4w5 or 5w4. I feel too emotional and volatile to be a 5, but too logical, detached, and insensitive to be a 4, hence relating mostly to the countertype descriptions of both 4 and 5. I do not relate to the goody-goodness of Sp 4s, but I do have 8-ish tendencies, so that could be where my outbursts and stubbornness come from.

I am definitely masochistic, very hard on myself, put myself through challenges in an effort to ... I don't know exactly, but it seem cruel to do some of the things I do to myself. I am also VERY heady and need an extreme amount of intellectual stimulation which is satisfied by studying interesting concepts, but I do not relate to the jumpy, non-committal nature of 7s, or the overly unstable neurosis of 6s (I am definitely neurotic though, do not misunderstand me there, it's just a different kind of neurosis).

I'm rambling and it's lunch time. Bye.

 

[Luminous]

1) If you are countertyped, how do you think it affects how you behave and extravert your types, if at all?
2) How much do you think your wing affects the manifestation of your type, or how your type works?
3) Do you relate to the stereotypical descriptions of your type out there (countertype or not)?

So, I am torn between being either 1w9 or 9w1, and sx dom, most likely sx/sp, along with being an INFP cognitive function-wise, and INFx dichotomy-wise.

From the site you linked:
I especially identify with the underlined.

1-1 Ones: In contrast to the SP One, who is a perfectionist, and the SO One, who is perfect, the 1-1 One perfects others, being more of a reformer than a perfectionist. 1-1 Ones can seem like Eights in that they can be zealous and driven to make the changes they feel strongly about. In this character, anger potentiates desire, and there is an intensity of desire both to get what one wants and to change other people and society to fit one’s ideals. (This is the countertype.)

The SP One is the most anxious and worried One and, perhaps, the most anxious and worried of all the types, Sixes included. SP Ones usually report having had a history of being put in the position of taking on a large amount of the responsibility for the family at an early age – too much responsibility. The SP One is the true perfectionist, needing to control everything and make sure everything is right and okay all the time. Controlling the environment is related to ensuring the One’s sense of survival.

And:

The 1-1 Nine expresses a need to be through the other; they try to gain a sense of being not found inside themselves by fusing with somebody else. These Nines may find it difficult to locate their own passion for living, so they unconsciously seek it in someone else, usually someone who is important to them. These Nines tend to be tender and sweet, and they may not realize they are living through specific others. These Nines are also kind and gentle and not very assertive.

The SP Nine expresses the need to find protection and comfort through merging with an experience of the satisfaction of physical needs. Through consistently getting lost in activities they enjoy– for example, eating, sleeping, reading, doing crossword puzzles, or working – they simultaneously experience comfort and avoid or forget their own sense of being. These Nines like to be alone more than the other Nines. They are also practical and would rather get absorbed in a familiar and comforting activity than take the risk of expressing themselves in the world.

Some of the descriptions of 1 sx-doms make them sound like overbearing invaders. That I do not relate to at all.

It may be because:

• I am introverted
• my judging function is introverted so I am focused on myself and what I value in terms of what inspires deep feelings in me regarding what I would like to change toward being more ideal
• one of these values is not overstepping and taking freedom of choice away from anyone else
• my 9 is strong

that I both didn't initially see how I was strongly 1-like, and how the 1 sx tendency is more tempered in terms of acting out on the outside world. I think I direct it more toward myself, rather than others and the world in general. That is not to say I do not push others, particularly those close to me, to change to become more ideal, but the focus is more on myself or what I can do in order to make the world more ideal for those others. One huge example of this from my life is moving half-way across the country to be with someone.

I can look at how I feel about some people and see clearly that if they are someone I care for strongly and they have or do experience things that are strongly unfair, I have a strong desire to want to fix or soothe or do what I can to make the situation closer to what I think the ideal would be.

And I do tend to judge those close to me if they mistreat me in some (perceived) way, as there is a way I feel I should be treated (which is largely based on respect and reciprocity). Sometimes those things are easily let go, sometimes there's a door slam.

 

[misfortuneteller]

[MENTION=35566]Luminous[/MENTION] I literally relate to all of the 8 stuff but I know i'm a core 9. The key is to look back at your whole entire life especially your childhood. I had to toughen up in my teens hence my forcefulness.

 

[misfortuneteller]

[MENTION=35566]Luminous[/MENTION] You have strong values because you're a Fi dom. You have shown many signs of being an attachment type (3,6,9) and having a heavy wing for either 9 is going to make them angry. I'm sure you'd know since you've seen what i'm like when i'm annoyed.

Edit: Also you question things a lot under stress like a 9 does since we disintegrate to 6.

 

[Earl Grey]

Reminder this is not a type-me thread, it's about general Enneagram theory. I'd prefer to see discussion about the theory itself through the lens of individual who considers/types as them, how, and why they type as or relate to them, not the specifics of why or why not someone can be a certain type (or the correctness of their self-typing), as it can lead to a derail.

@misfortuneteller, Your points may or may not be valid, but is unrelated to the OP.

 

[Tilt]

I am a countertype. I am an ENFJ 3w4 sp/sx. On the surface, I usually come as an IXTJ and slightly 1-ish because I can be finicky with details and perfectionistic. However, I rarely think of things in terms of morality, good or bad. It is almost always about being seen as valuable and competent to those people who I deem as significant in my life. The 4 wing makes me a bit elitist, morose, and a closet emo.

For example, I could relate to [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] (ENFJ 1w2) on the surface, but when we talked about underlying motivations, there usually was a disconnect on a deeper level.

The one thing that I don't relate to about 3 sp is the materialism focus. Sure, I have financial and status ideals, but I wouldn't say that I am purely materially focused.

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

I somewhat wonder how much each Enneagram type is actually tied to certain traits, like say, introversion/extroversion.

This is interesting, because I was thinking about this earlier today. I feel...very very introverted for someone of my type. I mean I'm not introverted, cognitively. I'm an ENTP. I don't relate to the "feeling drained with too much socialization" thing. I've almost never experienced this. But I have some underlying physical need to have my own space and to be able to go there and be alone. It's like bodily introversion, idk. I need personal territory or I am out of sorts.

1) If you are countertyped, how do you think it affects how you behave and extravert your types, if at all?
First of all, I do know what the counter types are. At the risk of sounding totally narcissistic, I think I was actually the person that introduced the concept to the forum at one point. And I don't type as social-first, but I still consider myself a counter-type. Or at least, a piss-poor example of my type. My being introverted is only PART of that.

For real, though, I could tell you about acting totally against the fixation. As well as acting totally with it.

2) How much do you think your wing affects the manifestation of your type, or how your type works?
Quite honestly, not much. People have both wings. There's one that's more psychologically prevalent (eg, influences your motivations, values, and behaviours more). Yes, your wing can shape how you react in certain situations and it can channel your energy in certain ways. But at the end of the day...and for about 98% of it...both my wings are clicking away in the background, shaping my mindset, informing my attitudes toward things, and making themselves apparent in various ways.

3) Do you relate to the stereotypical descriptions of your type out there (countertype or not)?
It took me 15 years to figure myself out for a reason: absolutely not. At all. No one else sees me that way irl or online; I had to go on a long, involved journey to really uncover my psychological underpinnings. I spent several more years between "But this is true" and "No fucking way can this be true". Very hard to accept.

I'm not saying I can't relate to parts of type descriptions. I'm not saying I'm not totally mortified when I look back through my life and see how everything I've ever done has operated on those principles and totally fucked my life. I'm not saying I don't see how the fixation totally controls me at all times. I am saying I read the descriptions and I'm like, "Oh come on", "No, I disagree", and "What fucking moronic primates". I roll my eyes a lot. Maybe that's just typical for someone who has an inherent need to be contentious--I do see a certain irony in that. Just, I'd never call myself a stereotype. Nor would anyone else.

Anyway, the notion of countertypes is sometimes contested, and different thinkers assign different instinctual variants to this role (eg, the Fauvres claim that sx-firsts are always the countertype). I can only talk about my own experience.