[Fe] The abyss of inferior Ti

[Poki]

Well, your ex certainly sounds like myself and my experiences with others at times. Even my mother (an INFJ 9w8) would occasionally find me illogical when I am in the grip of something (though 90% of the time I am more logical than her and we both agree on this). Often citing "you're being so black and white!", a huge core source of broken inferior-Ti logic. Effectively, Ti become desparate to distill everything town into a binary, easy to follow logic system; "if you do this, this will happen, and if you do that, that will happen. Those lead to this and that and THAT IS HOW IT IS." and there absolutely zero wiggle room left for it. I'll purposefully remove wiggle room in a "logical" manner so it's easy to follow. I will be absolutely convinced and resolute that I am right, and will do everything in my power to prove it or make it so. I also have a tendancy to take logic "case by case" and each case gets it's own custom fit logic. The thing is, in the day to day this works amazingly well and is a huge way for how I navigate the world, but it doesn't work everywhere. When a Ti dom comes along and tries to poke it (successful or not) it can be enraging, because we do NOT want it poked. At all. We want it to work, see the system as sound, and therefore it's an axiom not to be questioned.

ENFJ's are super super goal driven, and when the chips are down, we still don't let go, and will drag even the most terrible hodge-podge hobgoblin over the finishline, and pity the fool who tries to touch it. Once the line is crossed though, we tend to relent (or turn into a crying puddle on the floor).

Do you like creating systems or just using them to reach your goals? I know I personally cant stand being trapped by a system, I enjoy creating systems that accomplish a goal. I always enjoy wiggle room though, I don't like quite so closed and focused.

 

[á´…eparted]

Do you like creating systems or just using them to reach your goals? I know I personally cant stand being trapped by a system, I enjoy creating systems that accomplish a goal. I always enjoy wiggle room though, I don't like quite so closed and focused.

I LOVE creating systems and frameworks. Not just for myself, but for others too. It's extremely satisfyinf, and are essential for me to function. Sometimes they are kinda abstract, but a system is a system. I don't expect systems to stay exactly the same though. With time they evolve and a pattern is set. I'll only reroute it if the pattern is maladaptive.

 

[Poki]

Well, I am interested, because on my second read of your posted material, it seemed to be extreme versions of my Ti, not anything I jump into. Even during my long years of repressing emotions, I was usually still a sunny, happy person externally. I definitely relate to the parts of it here and there.....or a lot of parts..... indulging in sensation activities tends to get me out my mind over thinking.....

I don't ever feel my logic is ever "twisted".... But I could be wrong....

What about controlling your logic? Control is different then twisted. Logic is like a huge gigantic spider web, controlling would be more controlling which paths you go down as opposed to twisting things. Logic path is correct, but the path used is internally controlled. In a sense you control how you see the world? I see IJs doing that.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

What about controlling your logic? Control is different then twisted. Logic is like a huge gigantic spider web, controlling would be more controlling which paths you go down as opposed to twisting things. Logic path is correct, but the path used is internally controlled. In a sense you control how you see the world? I see IJs doing that.

Oh, I believe my logic path is completely internally controlled. I think the paths are straight forward, but maybe obscured to others. I see patterns behind so many things, and my logic helps me to support the vision I get with Ni. I have no problem applying Te rules and structure, especially if I have already agreed with them, based upon internal logically processing.

My 9 year old son is all about convoluted logic. He twists and turns and pivots, changing constantly, inconsistently, taking opposite positions seconds after another has been shown to be faulty. He lacks sufficient knowledge and only looks to his limited reasoning for answers. Even with As, he didn't get into the gifted program because he lacks most conventional ideas of logic. Math is his hardest subject.

I don't do that.

What I can do is argue both sides of many issues pretty easily and successfully, but I think that is different. I can come up with a good argument to defend almost any position, whether I hold the position or not.

I am definitely a Ti type.....

 

[evilrubberduckie]

My mom is a ESFJ

FJ's are weird.

.. Following this topic, but have no opinion on it as of yet. Intrigued about how the Ti works.

 

[á´…eparted]

[MENTION=19948]Showbread[/MENTION] tagging to remind you that you wanted to post.

------------

Now that I have time to write this out. Much of what was already talked about was how inferior Ti manifests externally, but I want to focus on the internal experience of it, as that's ultimately what matters more, and what is less understood.

Inferior Ti is very... devoid. It's devoid of care, it's devoid of drive, it's devoid of feeling, it's devoid of positivity, and it's devoid of hope. It simply runs off cold hard "facts" of life, that incidentally are negative.

Fe is very driven. I have yet to meet an Fe-dom who isn't driven towards something. A goal, an ideal, a person, something. Fe will find purpose and meaning within something(s) and sort of base it's life around it. It might not be logical, or even practical, but it gives purpose and meaning towards doing what it does and living life. When those goals or ideals are not met, can not be met, or the ends to them are poor, it hurts pretty darn bad. Fe gets forced to analyze "what went wrong", and most of the time that works out alright. It will recalibrate it's methods and try again. It certainly doesn't want to give up. It still hurts, but for the sake of the goals it keeps going. Except when it "runs out".

It's not uncommon for Fe to create "axioms". Hard and fast truths and conditions that are assumed to be met or required. These aren't wantonly chosen, but carefully thought out and made to seem unbreakable. The vast majority these are right, but like everything nothing is fullproof. Fe does not suffer well when these axioms are broken. Say for example, someones life plan hinges on making a set amount of money. That income is deemed an "axiom", a requirement assumed will be met and should not be a problem. There could be many reason to why it needs to be made; afford to support kids and a family, pay off loans, buy a dream house, etc. all the same it's a lynchpin. If something happens in ones life that breaks this assumed axion, Fe breaks as well. The best laid plans and goals fall to dissaray as the axiom broke, and it requires working it out from the ground up. If there is no good, easy, or fast solution inferior Ti steps in, and if it can't sort it out, it becomes dysfunctional.

Inferior Ti tends to focus on the negative and hit "what's the point..." moments quite easily. As an extreme example, but one I've experienced personally (and other Fe doms I know have as well), but "what's even the point of living? We're all going to die anyway". Inferior Ti brings forwards all of the cold realities of life. They're effectively axioms as well: life is finite, the universe is finite, nothing lasts. In the grip of inferior Ti, I have experienced immense pain over focusing on the state of the world. In one particular instance, I found myself looping and stressing over the fact that rare earth metals will eventually run out in the earth, maybe even in our lifetime. There is currently no solution for this, and our modern world requires these for significant portions of our technology. Are these thoughts productive? Nope. Inferior Ti can even be aware that these are non-productive, but it doesn't care. Inferior Ti often gets focused on the state of the world, the state of your life, and only focuses on the simple negative facts. Since plans and axioms "broke", it's as if the only thing that matters now is the way things are broken, fundemenally, that can't be changed.

Inferior Ti convinces itself that it's being immensely rational at all times, but it really isn't. The problem is it condenses logic and reality into very dense points. It ignores nuance like the plague. A lot of it driven from the fact that Fe runs off a lot of nuance to lay out its drives and goals. Ti supplements this and it gets "tired" when in the grip. It's a dysfunctional desire for a simple solution. This can manifest in grand large scale things, or even the tiniest minutia. It all sounds a lot like clinical depression, and it can be, but's not required.

It's odd, even while in the experience of this all with inferior Ti, moments of happiness and peace can be acheived. One doesn't need to be depressed. The individual can still function, experience happiness, but progress screaches to a halt. Things are often run off auto pilot. Inferior Ti thinks, but it truly doesn't want to think. It simply churns out "this is a fact", statements, axioms, that are done verbatium without further consideration. It can almost be like witnessing yourself experience things without actually experiencing it yourself.

Anyway, I think that covers the gist of how I see it.

 

[Showbread]

It simply runs off cold hard "facts" of life, that incidentally are negative.

Yes. It's like a constant cognitive dissonance resolving, logical inconsistency finding, systems dissecting, efficiency seeking program that just kind of runs in the background at all times. For the most part it just kind of streamlines things and makes life easier. But when it gets stuck, or it can't find a solution it breaks out and throws an existential crisis inducing tantrum. Similar to what [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] has described when her inferior Fi rears. Only instead of feelings causing the stress, it's facts. It's like a vortex of "If this doesn't make sense, NOTHING does and life is no longer worth living."

Inferior Ti convinces itself that it's being immensely rational at all times, but it really isn't. The problem is it condenses logic and reality into very dense points. It ignores nuance like the plague. A lot of it driven from the fact that Fe runs off a lot of nuance to lay out its drives and goals. Ti supplements this and it gets "tired" when in the grip. It's a dysfunctional desire for a simple solution. This can manifest in grand large scale things, or even the tiniest minutia. It all sounds a lot like clinical depression, and it can be, but's not required.

It's so absolute and value driven. It's like "If this solution doesn't work in ALL scenarios, it's useless and should be discarded. There must be a better one that makes EVERYONE happy." And then when you can't find that thing, you become worthless because it feels like all your functions have failed you. As an ESFJ it goes something like...

Fe: You've considered how everyone feels about the problem.
Si: Nothing in my past is like this problem, I have no idea how to solve it.
Ne: Lets expand all of our options here, theoretically could x, y, or z, solution work?
Ti: Oh! Z works, but shit it contradicts this other fact of life or law of the universe...

Rinse and repeat.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Well, Hard and Showbread, that was extremely illuminating. Extremely. Better than I could have believed possible.

I resemble your two posts way tooooo much. And to think, I thought I had been merely trying to ignore my Aux function for 30 years, rather than my Dom....

 

[á´…eparted]

Yes. It's like a constant cognitive dissonance resolving, logical inconsistency finding, systems dissecting, efficiency seeking program that just kind of runs in the background at all times. For the most part it just kind of streamlines things and makes life easier. But when it gets stuck, or it can't find a solution it breaks out and throws an existential crisis inducing tantrum. Similar to what [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] has described when her inferior Fi rears. Only instead of feelings causing the stress, it's facts. It's like a vortex of "If this doesn't make sense, NOTHING does and life is no longer worth living."

It's so absolute and value driven. It's like "If this solution doesn't work in ALL scenarios, it's useless and should be discarded. There must be a better one that makes EVERYONE happy." And then when you can't find that thing, you become worthless because it feels like all your functions have failed you. As an ESFJ it goes something like...

Fe: You've considered how everyone feels about the problem.
Si: Nothing in my past is like this problem, I have no idea how to solve it.
Ne: Lets expand all of our options here, theoretically could x, y, or z, solution work?
Ti: Oh! Z works, but shit it contradicts this other fact of life or law of the universe...

Rinse and repeat.

My mother used to try so hard all the time growing up to shake me out of this whenever I fell into it. The "all or nothing" mentality is extremely hard to pull out of. I mean even blunt telling me, in detail, what I am doing wrong even when it made objective sense did nothing. It's strange how rejecting of logic inferior Ti is despite how much it's trying to use it. You really nail this down succinctly. The bolded highlights what it's like perfectly.

I think inferior Ti has been poorly defined or understood because to an observer, an Fe dom in the thick of it appears to be extremely emotional and totally in the grip of their own feelings. I mean, that is true, but it's not where it's coming from. Indeed, it's a visceral reaction to the cold realities (true or not) that inferior Ti brings forward. It's also why there seems to be a somewhat diverse reaction to it (how the reaction occurs I think strongly links to enneagram), and how inferior Ti appears externally doesn't seem "consistent" like it does across a variety of Fi inferior individuals.

 

[EJCC]

[MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] [MENTION=19948]Showbread[/MENTION] this is so interesting! And awful, obviously. But the fact that existential crises are so common with inferior Ti, is very surprising to me. It makes perfect sense the way you describe it, but is still surprising. Thanks for tagging me, Showbread.

It seems like the big similarity between inferior Fi and inferior Ti, is that they are a response to chaos and system failure. From what you guys are saying, it could be summed up (in a flawed way) like this:

Inferior Ti: "Your modus operandi failed and no one's needs were met, but what does any logical system matter anyway? Nothing makes sense and everything is chaotic and meaningless."

Inferior Fi: "Your modus operandi failed and objective standards were ignored, but what does any ethical system matter anyway? Everyone is morally repugnant and you especially are morally repugnant."

 

[á´…eparted]

But the fact that existential crises are so common with inferior Ti, is very surprising to me. It makes perfect sense the way you describe it, but is still surprising.

Why do you find it surprising? I suppose I can see why since Fe doms tend to just not talk about it. If I did my blog would be 3x larger, easily. I used to years ago, but as I got older I realized that discussing them often was just unproductive and if anything made it worse as it effectively overindulged in Ti. It also made me come across like a total snob, and made me unlikeable. I honestly do have these sorts of thoughts cross my mind frequently, but I can often just let them roll off me if I am doing well.

It seems like the big similarity between inferior Fi and inferior Ti, is that they are a response to chaos and system failure. From what you guys are saying, it could be summed up (in a flawed way) like this:

Inferior Ti: "Your modus operandi failed and no one's needs were met, but what does any logical system matter anyway? Nothing makes sense and everything is chaotic and meaningless."

Inferior Fi: "Your modus operandi failed and objective standards were ignored, but what does any ethical system matter anyway? Everyone is morally repugnant and you especially are morally repugnant."

Yup! This sums it up perfect.

 

[EJCC]

Why do you find it surprising? I suppose I can see why since Fe doms tend to just not talk about it. If I did my blog would be 3x larger, easily. I used to years ago, but as I got older I realized that discussing them often was just unproductive and if anything made it worse as it effectively overindulged in Ti. It also made me come across like a total snob, and made me unlikeable. I honestly do have these sorts of thoughts cross my mind frequently, but I can often just let them roll off me if I am doing well.

I guess it just never occurred to me that people could be so impersonal, in their darkest moments. Especially folks who are usually so personally-oriented. (Also most of the ExFJs I know are enneagram 2 or 3w2, so I associate their dark moments with outbursts of wrathful 8 disintegration.)

 

[á´…eparted]

I guess it just never occurred to me that people could be so impersonal, in their darkest moments. Especially folks who are usually so personally-oriented. (Also most of the ExFJs I know are enneagram 2 or 3w2, so I associate their dark moments with outbursts of wrathful 8 disintegration.)

Ah I see, yes the grip of Ti is cold. As I said earlier the simple word to describe it is "devoid". You've seem it in be before; moments in my blog where I seem to completely disregard people and emotion, almost deliberately, and disregard myself as well. I can see how this would be overlooked to an observer though. To us it's so normal we assume that it's known. It's actually odd to me that people don't experience pits like that.

Dark moments that lash out, from what I know in myself and others anyway, are honestly a lot "healthier" than being completely totally immersed in it. The completely bottom tends to render a very still and nihilistic individual.

 

[á´…eparted]

[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] here's an example of a wrathful pit for myself (since you mentioned it seeming to occur for 2's). It's morbid fantasy example, but it still gets the point across.

If the world were going to hell in a handbasket, and there really was nothing left. No recovery, no way out, and objectively the world is toast. Say, a comet hit and the world is literally going to die in several decades. Inferior Ti would see no point in trying, "that's that it's the end", and in a last ditch effort, would want to not only end it for itself, but takes as many people down with me at the same time. Why? Because they're fighting something that is a pointless battle, and Ti would in essence want to save everyone by removing the ability of everyone to suffer. By not existing. Ti would see it as a simplistic, logical solution, but it's plainly completely illogical.

I doubt you've seen the series ReBoot before, but at the very end of the series there's a villian named Damon whos goal is to bring "order to the chaos of the net". The methods? Delete everyone. Not existing brings unity.

 

[EJCC]

Ah I see, yes the grip of Ti is cold. As I said earlier the simple word to describe it is "devoid". You've seem it in be before; moments in my blog where I seem to completely disregard people and emotion, almost deliberately, and disregard myself as well. I can see how this would be overlooked to an observer though. To us it's so normal we assume that it's known. It's actually odd to me that people don't experience pits like that.

Dark moments that lash out, from what I know in myself and others anyway, are honestly a lot "healthier" than being completely totally immersed in it. The completely bottom tends to render a very still and nihilistic individual.

Yeah, it makes a lot more sense when you explain it. The types that are the most stereotypically warm and person-oriented end up trapped in a cold and personless world. And the types that are the most stereotypically object-oriented, and not great with people, are the ones who end up trapped in their own feelings.

I suspect nihilism is involved in just about everyone's "pits" as you describe them. But mine, as an Fi-inferior, are less about everything being meaningless, and more about everything being evil, for lack of a better word. It's not "the universe is chaotic and systemless", it's "the universe has no moral arc".

 

[CarolineForbes]

One of the things I notice is that I do grasp concepts fairly well. My Ti isn't completely brain dead, and that is what actually makes it agonizing. I can comprehend the concept and logically figure it out inside of my head. It is what happens after I have figured it out that is the real problem. Emotions cloud my judgement. My brain goes "Oh, I get the logical answer," but then my dominant Fe goes "But yeah the thing is, you don't care about that logic. What you care about is how this is going to emotionally affect someone else.".
My Ti dom boyfriend said that my inferior Ti feels like this....he is a child playing with building blocks and he creates this beautiful tower (of logic) and it is well crafted and took him a long time to make. Then I come up and just kick the hell out of his blocks, and I'm laughing like nothing happened.

It painted an accurate picture and I realized how frustrating it can be for others to deal with that.
But it is equally frustrating for me, because I can logic, it just doesn't ultimately serve my purpose.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, thanks for whomever tagged me. I can't find you, or where you tagged me.

Let's just blame my inferior Ti for that one. Hehe just kidding!

 

[Tilt]

Ti is definitely not my natural strength but I use it well enough to be able to come up with explanations on why I am doing things a certain way instead of just giving a canned emotion-based answer.

Also, my job primarily is to look out for any discrepancies in the facts, numbers, and potential problems and research and find viable solutions. I am basically the company blood hound.

Fe is very useful in trying to figure out how people dynamics, company morale, vision/philosophy fit into the end goal of what I want to accomplish. Because I am Fe dominant, I get too hung up on the emotional white noise and interpersonal drama and sometimes feel tempted to come up with the best compromise... Even when it's not warranted.

 

[Eric B]

Seems like Quenk is saying that Fe types are sent into a deep, dark hole of Ti when they're overly criticized, not well-understood, or placed in an environment rife with conflict. And further that, when they're there, they become stoic, overly analytical, critical of others, glaringly illogical, and robbed of self-worth. Sure, I could see it.

That's my experience of my wife going into inferior mode. Driven purely by Feeling, when something I say doesn't seem to add up, then she becomes this critical super-"Rational", trying to rip up everything I say as "illogical". But still being ultimately a Sensing-Feeling type, she's not looking at the "big picture" I'm seeing (and if it's some negative rumination; I'm likely in Senex Ni mode, which is itself shadowy and undeveloped to begin with), and can't be made to understand it.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

A lot of what I'm reading from the Fe doms in this thread is eerily similar to what I've observed in my ESFJ father.

 

[Captain_Invincible]

Inferior Ti: "Your modus operandi failed and no one's needs were met, but what does any logical system matter anyway? Nothing makes sense and everything is chaotic and meaningless."

This. Right here. I used to have "nothing makes sense" anymore stages when I was younger. I tried hard to be logically consistent and bother with internal systems but it never came naturally to me. Now I'm like "Meh, screw that. My thoughts are meant to be free. I'll just focus on what matters."