[Other/Multiple Enneatypes] Sp/So 4w5s?

[mintleaf]

Do you know of any examples?

 

[SD45T-2]

[MENTION=4212]Peguy[/MENTION]

 

[brainheart]

I've seen Cormac McCarthy listed as one. I could see it.

I think a 4w5 sp/so will seem especially one-like externally.

 

[mintleaf]

I've seen Cormac McCarthy listed as one. I could see it.

I think a 4w5 sp/so will seem especially one-like externally.

I've read that about sp 4s, and I do strongly identify with many aspects of 1s.

In response to your rep: It should have been obvious, but having a stacking in seeming contradiction to type 4 threw me off. You -- at least at one point -- typed as 461 or 416, right? Apparently 4s of this tritype are the most compliant 4s, so that probably has something to do with why we both mistyped as 9s.

 

[brainheart]

I've read that about sp 4s, and I do strongly identify with many aspects of 1s.

In response to your rep: It should have been obvious, but having a stacking in seeming contradiction to type 4 threw me off. You -- at least at one point -- typed as 461 or 416, right? Apparently 4s of this tritype are the most compliant 4s, so that probably has something to do with why we both mistyped as 9s.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure my tritype is 461 as well. I think it makes for a more repressed four in certain ways, what with the influence of the superego.

 

[brainheart]

And I think this song is very 461:

 

[mintleaf]

And I think this song is very 461:

I love that song, and I think I see what you mean. I'd definitely consider 461 for Cohen. All 4s fixate on shame, but it seems like 461s, under strong influence of two superego types, are particularly guilt-driven* as well. I wasn't sure how to explain the difference, so I looked it up and found this:

Guilt is an awareness of failure against a standard. Shame is a sense of failure before the eyes of someone else.

At the risk of simplifying it, Bird on a Wire is a sung apology, an acknowledgment of his failure to live up to his standards. There's also an acknowledgment of the beauty in the striving, which is where the influence of 4 can be seen. That's at least part of what I see in "Like a bird on a wire / like a drunk in a midnight choir / I have tried in my way to be free." What's your interpretation of those lines?

*Not to imply that 461s are more righteous or anything (though based on the tritype description, that seems to be a common self-delusion). It goes without saying that guilt doesn't always do its job.

 

[brainheart]

I love that song, and I think I see what you mean. I'd definitely consider 461 for Cohen. All 4s fixate on shame, but it seems like 461s, under strong influence of two superego types, are particularly guilt-driven* as well. I wasn't sure how to explain the difference, so I looked it up and found this:

I agree. That definition of guilt is right-on. I think that because the standard depends on the individual, what triggers guilt will vary substantially. With four leading, I think the guilt will be less ethically based and more image based. In other words, not Am I being a good, moral person? so much as Am I living up to the idealistic image of who I think I should be? If not, it's all my fault.

At the risk of simplifying it, Bird on a Wire is a sung apology, an acknowledgment of his failure to live up to his standards. There's also an acknowledgment of the beauty in the striving, which is where the influence of 4 can be seen. That's at least part of what I see in "Like a bird on a wire / like a drunk in a midnight choir / I have tried in my way to be free." What's your interpretation of those lines?

Well put. I'd say my interpretation is close enough to yours that there's little reason in adding to it.

Not to imply that 461s are more righteous or anything (though based on the tritype description, that seems to be a common self-delusion). It goes without saying that guilt doesn't always do its job.

Yes, I would say that can be a common self-delusion. I especially relate to this in the description:

When they feel insecure, they can be overly critical of themselves and others and appear to be a snob.

I had a hard time seeing this in myself. When people made comments to me about my being 'my own worse enemy' and 'being elitist' at my more unhealthy moments I tended to dismiss them. But now I get it. I also think this is good advice/ something to strive for:

[461s] need to trust what they intuitively sense and act accordingly...

 

[William K]

Do you know of any examples?

Nah. They're as rare as unicorns

 

[Sunny Ghost]

I've seen Cormac McCarthy listed as one. I could see it.

I think a 4w5 sp/so will seem especially one-like externally.

What does it mean to be 1-like? I have a difficult time understanding 1's.

 

[iNtrovert]

That's how I test but I'm really new too all this stuff so I won't even pretend to know for sure. I just know I'm a 4 for the most part. I was hoping this would help.

 

[mintleaf]

[MENTION=17164]iNtrovert[/MENTION]

There are some good descriptions here that might be helpful.

[MENTION=10131]IndyAnnaJoan[/MENTION]

Four's Connection to 1
Healthy connection to 1 brings objectivity, balance and idealism. Helps Fours locate the objective world and connect to a factual reality that is independent of their inner feelings. Like finding dry land in a sea of subjectivity. Discipline of cleaving to the real world diminishes self-indulgence and melodrama. Practical problem-solving skills enhanced. Intense feelings smooth out, a kind of balanced equanimity takes hold. Will also be idealistic and willing to work hard out in the world for what they believe in. Become contributors instead of complainers.

The low side of this connection is that a Four can become faultfinding and nit-picky. Dissatisfied perfectionism may color their relationships. Get creatively blocked because nothing they produce is up to their own high standards. Induce shame in themselves with inner criticism. May tear down others out of jealousy. Sometimes latch onto a grandiose, obsessive Big Idea. Belief they are attuned to Absolute Truth. Idealistic and artistic pretentiousness possible. Sometimes can be rageful.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

[MENTION=17424]decrescendo[/MENTION]
Woof. That sounds like me. More so the pro's than the con's portion. I think it's why I come off SJ-like.

 

[William K]

Self-pres/Social

This subtype is the least volatile and fiery of the type Four stackings. They can resemble type One in terms of their efficiency and practicality. Although their focus will be more on the emotional aesthetic, these Fours do have a considerable practical side. Less flashy than some of the subtypes of Four, they nevertheless have a quiet charm and developed sense of style. They are likely to value their possessions, to perhaps collect items of personal emotional significance. They may, for instance, have shelves and shelves of books and have a place for each book. This subtype can also resemble type Six in terms of having a great deal of anxiety. This anxiety often revolves around self-pres concerns such as those surrounding health issues and mortality. Their strong self-pres instinct also lends a degree of independence to this subtype. As the sexual instinct is least pronounced, this subtype of Four is prone to romanticize intimacy without actually pursuing real relationships. When healthy, these Fours can be very productive; when less healthy they might suffer from boughts of melancholy or self pity. The strong self-pres instinct however often helps these individuals to recognize how their state of mind is impacting their health and well being. This enables them to become action oriented.

Thanks to [MENTION=10131]IndyAnnaJoan[/MENTION] for reminding me of this Type 4 sp/so description from a post from 3 years ago. I don't remember where the source is and too lazy to Google it

Edit : Ah nevermind. Didn't see the link in the post above

 

[Noll]

the only one i've ever found is Fyodor Dostoevsky, it's a shame they're so very rare, or maybe that's the charm, i've always been fascinated by sp/so's nonetheless.

"My debauchery I undertook solitarily, by night, covertly, fearfully, filthily, with a shame that would not abandon me... I was then already bearing the underground in my soul."

 

[mintleaf]

Found a list here.

Phillip Larkin
Frank McCourt
Vladimir Nabakov
Jose Saramego
UA Fanthorpe
Ingmar Bergman
Bernardo Bertolucci
Claudio Abbado

Nabakov and Jose Saramego sound right, but I don't know the others.

Also saw Willy Wonka listed as one (?)

 

[Noll]

Ingmar Bergman was so/sp.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

[MENTION=7726]William K[/MENTION], where did you find this? I'd like to read the so/sp one, too. This description seems very fitting.

 

[mintleaf]

[MENTION=10131]IndyAnnaJoan[/MENTION]

4-SO/SP: This subtype can mimic type One when it comes to social values. They can be harsh critics of the current mores. They have romantic ideals of what the world should be like; reality always falls short. Ironically, this type can be the most withdrawn of the Fours. Social anxiety combines with the Four's shame issues to make this type feel that the pressure associated with "fitting in" is just not worth it. They are also the most likely of the Fours to intellectualize their emotions and in this way resemble type Five.
The social instinct tends to give the personality a focus on being included, fitting in, or finding a way to make a valued contribution. This agenda conflicts with the Four's sense of being "different from" or "other than." The Four's need to establish a separate identity conflicts with the social instinct's drive towards inclusion. The social Four often deals with this dilemma by defining themselves as being outside the social system. By defining themselves always in terms of the system, even if it is to establish distance, this Four stays essentially tied to it. Fours with the social/self-pres stacking tend to acutely feel a sense of social shame at not quite belonging.
When this subtype is reasonably healthy, they are often gifted critics of the prevailing culture. They develop true insight into social dynamics and have an eye for the nuances and subtleties of social interactions. Many Four writers are soc/self.

[source]

 

[Sunny Ghost]

[MENTION=10131]IndyAnnaJoan[/MENTION]

4-SO/SP: This subtype can mimic type One when it comes to social values. They can be harsh critics of the current mores. They have romantic ideals of what the world should be like; reality always falls short. Ironically, this type can be the most withdrawn of the Fours. Social anxiety combines with the Four's shame issues to make this type feel that the pressure associated with "fitting in" is just not worth it. They are also the most likely of the Fours to intellectualize their emotions and in this way resemble type Five.
The social instinct tends to give the personality a focus on being included, fitting in, or finding a way to make a valued contribution. This agenda conflicts with the Four's sense of being "different from" or "other than." The Four's need to establish a separate identity conflicts with the social instinct's drive towards inclusion. The social Four often deals with this dilemma by defining themselves as being outside the social system. By defining themselves always in terms of the system, even if it is to establish distance, this Four stays essentially tied to it. Fours with the social/self-pres stacking tend to acutely feel a sense of social shame at not quite belonging.
When this subtype is reasonably healthy, they are often gifted critics of the prevailing culture. They develop true insight into social dynamics and have an eye for the nuances and subtleties of social interactions. Many Four writers are soc/self.

[source]

Thanks!