Signs of Ni

[Rasofy]

Nietzsche deals with values and isn't really a system builder (off the top of my head). He also has mystical overtones.)

Care to explain?

 

[Zarathustra]

Care to explain?

The better question would be how "dealing with values" signals to Fe rather than Fi (not to mention the fact that we're talking about the man's ideas/philosophy, which opens up territory beyond simply the functions), and why "having mystical overtones" signals to INFJ and not INTJ (of the many one-or-two-word descriptions I've seen for the types, one of them calls INTJs "The Mystical Scientists"). Anyway, [MENTION=14212]Reverie[/MENTION], I'm not trying to be mean, but your analysis is just really crude and simplistic, not to mention contrary to what most people believe; and, if you're gunna be a contrarian, you kinda have to have a lot more than what you've presented to back up your position). Also, if we wish to carry on this discussion, I think it would be better in its own thread titled 'Nietzsche: INTJ or INFJ?'.

 

[KDude]

Both INJs are mystics.

Cuckoo!

j/k How one expresses their thoughts to the world doesn't seem like it has much to do with mysticism either way. Emotiveness would be Fe, of course. But not mysticism.

So says I.

 

[Rasofy]

I was just trying to give her the chance to explain (since you didn't ).

The better question would be how "dealing with values" signals to Fe rather than Fi (not to mention the fact that we're talking about the man's ideas/philosophy, which opens up territory beyond simply the functions), and why "having mystical overtones" signals to INFJ and not INTJ (of the many one-or-two-word descriptions I've seen for the types, one of them calls INTJs "The Mystical Scientists").

That was indeed my objective, but I couldn't ask her to make a thesis about how differently Fe and Fi users portray Nietzsche.
But perhaps her reply could give us part of the answer. FWIW, I think Nietzsche is a clear INTJ.
I had a friend, philosophy student, who believed that the quote ''The last christian died on the cross'' indicated Nietzsche was a Christian that was disappointed with the fact that the Christian principles aren't being followed. I think he is 100% wrong, but, judging by the quote alone, his theory makes some sense.

 

[Zarathustra]

I was just trying to give her the chance to explain (since you didn't ).

Yes, I knew what you were doing.

And why...

That was indeed my objective, but I couldn't ask her to make a thesis about how differently Fe and Fi users portray Nietzsche.
But perhaps her reply could give us part of the answer.

*tries to refrain from being a dick*

Let's just say "the herd" is certainly not an anti-Fi-user concept...

FWIW, I think Nietzsche is a clear INTJ.

As do I. As do most people.

I am willing to listen to an interesting argument, though.

That which has thus far been presented, though, is not anywhere close.

I had a friend, philosophy student, who believed that the quote ''The last christian died on the cross'' indicated Nietzsche was a Christian that was disappointed with the fact that the Christians principles aren't being followed. I think he is 100% wrong, but, judging by the quote alone, his theory makes some sense.

Well, he was a Christian, but went away from it.

And the inanity of most Christians, I'm sure, was part of his reason for doing so. I know it was certainly part of mine.

In my opinion, his principles were more in-line with Christian principles than most realize or give him credit for -- people take him far too seriously with the Ubermensch/bellum omnium contra omnes kinda stuff, not realizing that he merely wished to preserve the beneficial aspects of Christianity but get rid of what he considered the festering, unhealthy underbelly of it. The man didn't want everyone going around stabbing each other in the neck, and is known to have been extremely polite and mild-mannered himself. He pretty much explicitly says in TSZ (as explicitly as he says anything in that book) that he looks at competition as a healthy thing that helps drive mankind higher, and that you should both be in competition with your friends, and look at those who are your enemies as friends as well, since the competition they provide will help drive you to excel. Unfortunately, most peoples' understanding of Nietzsche is very thin.

 

[Rasofy]

Well, he was a Christian, but went away from it.

And the inanity of most Christians, I'm sure, was part of his reason for doing so. I know it was certainly part of mine.

In my opinion, his principles were more in-line with Christian principles than most realize or give him credit for -- people take him far too seriously with the Ubermensch/bellum omnium contra omnes kinda stuff, not realizing that he merely wished to preserve the beneficial aspects of Christianity but get rid of what he considered the festering, unhealthy underbelly of it. The man didn't want everyone going around stabbing each other in the neck, and is known to have been extremely polite and mild-mannered himself. He pretty much explicitly says in TSZ (as explicitly as he says anything in that book) that he looks at competition as a healthy thing that helps drive mankind higher, and that you should both be in competition with your friends, and look at those who are your enemies as friends as well, since the competition they provide will help drive you to excel. Unfortunately, most peoples' understanding of Nietzsche is very thin.

Very interesting points.

 

[Mia.]

FWIW, I think Nietzsche is a clear INTJ.

No question.

Both INJs are mystics.
.

No question.

 

[RaptorWizard]

NF is for sages, and NT is for wizards. Ni is for arch mages, the cross between the two.

 

[INTP]

I had a friend, philosophy student, who believed that the quote ''The last christian died on the cross'' indicated Nietzsche was a Christian that was disappointed with the fact that the Christian principles aren't being followed.

imo its about christ being the only christian and his followers are following some bullshit interpretations of what he actually tried to teach.

 

[Zarathustra]

imo its about christ being the only christian and his followers are following some bullshit interpretations of what he actually tried to teach.

Pretty much.

It points to Christ following his own personal ethic, and doing so authentically.

Christians, on the other hand, as opposed to following their own personal ethic, follow what their church tells them to do, according to their church's interpretation of Christ and his message, and, in so doing, are living inauthentically. If "Christ's way" isn't compatible with your authentic way of being, then you are doing a disservice to yourself by living an inauthentic life, and, even prior to that, that being able to know "Christ's way" is questionable from the get-go, and what you've been taught about "that way" should be questioned. It points to Christ living his life authentically, and others merely trying to follow someone else's -- his -- example in the particular, when what they really should be trying to do is trying to follow his example in the general, as someone who lived authentically.

 

[Nicodemus]

I have used that quote from time to time in regular conversations to illustrate the point that Christianity is not what (the fictional character of) Christ had in mind for the future.

 

[Zarathustra]

Of course not.

What he really wanted was...

 

[Reverie]

Both INJs are mystics.

Cuckoo!

j/k How one expresses their thoughts to the world doesn't seem like it has much to do with mysticism either way. Emotiveness would be Fe, of course. But not mysticism.

So says I.

Well you're right. So I may have to be a cuckoo then (beats cleaning and housewifing so maybe I'll be happier).

The better question would be how "dealing with values" signals to Fe rather than Fi (not to mention the fact that we're talking about the man's ideas/philosophy, which opens up territory beyond simply the functions), and why "having mystical overtones" signals to INFJ and not INTJ (of the many one-or-two-word descriptions I've seen for the types, one of them calls INTJs "The Mystical Scientists"). Anyway, [MENTION=14212]Reverie[/MENTION], I'm not trying to be mean, but your analysis is just really crude and simplistic, not to mention contrary to what most people believe; and, if you're gunna be a contrarian, you kinda have to have a lot more than what you've presented to back up your position). Also, if we wish to carry on this discussion, I think it would be better in its own thread titled 'Nietzsche: INTJ or INFJ?'.

Maybe we should have a thread like that. I could be wrong. I just automatically assumed Nietzsche was an INFJ because he's been one of my favorite authors since I was a teen. It's an affinity thing. ;D
I personally wouldn't have expected an INTJ to have such a prophetic tone in his writing, preferring to have factual proof for his statements. Maybe I have an erroneous idea about INTJs and I'm not just saying. I haven't really looked into the matter so I can't claim to be any expert.
I don't look at those who's what type lists because I'm an infj and I sincerelt question their credibility after being lumped together with Jesus, Oompa loompas and the tooth fairy. (Though Jesus surely some people I know might agree with, but not in any positive sense.)

Let's just say "the herd" is certainly not an anti-Fi-user concept...

It's also not an anti Fe concept believe it or not. pops up quite often when I've had conversations with ENFJs of all people. They are the Fe doms and all. Fe is usually translated on these forums as "wanting to be social and nice" which is only partly true. The social pressure and need to conform is very keenly felt and can cause outbursts of anger. It's less a cool "you are all fools" thing.
Nietzsche was a sweetheart though in person from what I've gathered, not that that excludes INTJs. I'm sure you can be sweethearts too. I think Nietzsche seems to very blatantly have a very strong emotional investment in convincing people of his views. That I would have associated with a secondary Fe. We can quite clearly see that I'm more of a feeler. Facts support my NF view but i have no personal investment in them. i don't delight in facts. they are supporting actors. I'd imagine an INTJ would be very invested in being factual and feeling would be the supporting function. Thoughts?

In my opinion, his principles were more in-line with Christian principles than most realize or give him credit for -- people take him far too seriously with the Ubermensch/bellum omnium contra omnes kinda stuff, not realizing that he merely wished to preserve the beneficial aspects of Christianity but get rid of what he considered the festering, unhealthy underbelly of it. The man didn't want everyone going around stabbing each other in the neck, and is known to have been extremely polite and mild-mannered himself. He pretty much explicitly says in TSZ (as explicitly as he says anything in that book) that he looks at competition as a healthy thing that helps drive mankind higher, and that you should both be in competition with your friends, and look at those who are your enemies as friends as well, since the competition they provide will help drive you to excel. Unfortunately, most peoples' understanding of Nietzsche is very thin.

I agree on that completely.



EDIT:
My original question was about differences between the two Ni doms which I'd still appreciate any input on, since if it is glaringly obvious that Nietzsche is an INTJ and not an INFJ there must be some reasons as to why this is and would actually possibly answer my question.
I think there are ground to ask why Nietzsche is an INTJ as (since I now took a look) some other famous INTJ philosophers like Marx and Hegel are specifically what were referred to as system builders in my oh so distant youth. As opposed to Kiergegaard who's mentioned as an INFJ philosopher who's described as prosaic. Nietzsche is also often described as prosaic. My old worn out copy of Happy Science starts with poems. I don't see exactly why it's so blatantly obvious that he is INTJ. I think it at least merits a question.
If it is absolutely clear cut then an explanation as to why would be lovely.... cure me of my ignorance.

AND SOME:
Is it the ...er...pungent off puttish harsh tone and air of superiority in Nietzsche's writing? Would that be more indicative of Te-Fi?

 

[Mia.]

I think Nietzsche seems to very blatantly have a very strong emotional investment in convincing people of his views. That I would have associated with a secondary Fe.

This is his tertiary Fi. Fi has a far deeper investment than Fe in convincing people of their own values from the anchor of their inner world to realization in the outer world.

Is it the ...er...pungent off puttish harsh tone and air of superiority in Nietzsche's writing? Would that be more indicative of Te-Fi?

Yeeeee-ep. The INTJ flavor of Te/Fi off-puttish and harshness in particular. Delightfully corrosive with subtle notes of virulence.

 

[uumlau]

This is his tertiary Fi. Fi has a far deeper investment than Fe in convincing people of their own values from the anchor of their inner world to realization in the outer world.

Yeah, there is a weird tendency to not explicitly state the values, but a strong tendency to kick up a fuss when those values are not met.

Yeeeee-ep. The INTJ flavor of Te/Fi off-puttish and harshness in particular. Delightfully corrosive with subtle notes of virulence.

And just as interesting, this holds true for all flavors of Te/Fi. Even INFPs can lapse into an incredibly harsh Te-mode, much as INTPs can enter a weird Fe-mode in which they do their best to "be Fe", and ... um ... fail.

 

[Mia.]

And just as interesting, this holds true for all flavors of Te/Fi. Even INFPs can lapse into an incredibly harsh Te-mode, .

Hehe, yep. If we can develop/mature our Te that helps with temperance and contribution in expression. INFPs who don't encourage its healthy participation face disruptive bouts of it vacillating between turning outward and becoming critical/cynical of the world, and turning inward like a weapon (to connect with the earlier discussion about cutting in the INTJ/ENFP thread - I think - which I know was Se focused, but still.... interesting) to use against oneself in terms of criticism and self-abuse.

much as INTPs can enter a weird Fe-mode in which they do their best to "be Fe", and ... um ... fail.

:yim_rolling_on_the_

Yes. (Although again, it depends on the development of the individual.)

 

[Reverie]

Nietzsche is hard to type because to me he's displaying behavior that would fit either INFJ of INTJ.
His Ni dom is unquestionable but I'm still on the fence with IN_J.
There are some aspects which to me seem apparently INFJ and some which seem very INTJ.
Factoring in his health makes it harder as he may have suffered from a brain malady, brain tumor or as has been "the official opinion" the clap.
I'm sure that would have an effect on the personality.

Is he using tertiary Fi or secondary Fe?

INTJ case would be supported by the fact that he's being very brutal against hypocrisy and that type of conviction is usually typical of Fi users, as you mentioned he does not state his values and he is clearly an nonconformist.
On the other hand there are other non conformists like Kiergegaard who is an INFJ. Could he just be value driven in general like an aux Fe would be?
One thing that perplexes me is his relationship with Wagner whom he idealizes but is later disappointed in and er...doorlams him . That type of behavior I thought to be more typical for INFJs. (I can't believe I'm saying that...XD ) What is your take on that?
If he was mildmannered and agreeable in person wouldn't that itself indicate Fe?
The highly emotional tone in his work...is it a Fe user trying to influence and persuade the reader with nuances of feeling or rage from breach of personal values by "the herd"?

The obvious conclusion would be to rule out Fe as it is a harmonizing function, however I don't know..I suppose Hitler harmonized the Germans for his unpleasant ends but not all INFJs are out to harmonize and blend in (Kiergegaard for example, never liked...nor was Jesus if you really think about it unfortunately..) INFJs have a fidelity for their vision over the need to blend in, sometimes this causes a very real inner friction which can result in very emotional behavior.

Was he cold and unaware of emotions like INTJs are reported to be (correct me if it's %€"#%") or hyper aware of emotions?

Then I wonder: Is his reasoning Te or Ti?

Ti seeks root causes and pieces information into clusters.
Te soves problems in a systematic fashion.

It's hard to weed out the essence from the functions descriptions as they'd relate to this case. One description I found some while ago on this forum (I think) which I'm unable to locate (My apologies to the writer) was that when dealing with subjective matters, as Nietzsche's philosophy was (like reducing for example causality to a psychological affect "The Will to Power" ) , Te and Ti act in different ways:
Te orientated on subjective matters: Interprets a subjective conviction analytically from objective facts---> At the base there is an objective idea. Subjectively orientated thinking subordinate to objective data.
Ti orientated on subjective matters: Ti is orientated by it's nature by a subjective factor: feeling or direction. Starts from subject and return to subject---> produces new views, not new facts. Yeilds insight but not new facts. Facts collected for the purpose of serving as evidence or examples, not for their own sake.

The concept of the will to power is highly subjective, a psychological affect that colors our perception and makes objectivity impossible because of the constant contamination of subjectivity. Would that affect qualify as an objective idea by definition?

One biographical anecdote I'd like to offer is that Nietzsche did his thinking on long solitary walks. My superficial understanding would be that it would be more indicative of Ti but I'm not that naive, as it might just be indicative of Ni (???) Any thoughts on this? (<---I'm actually attempting to converse here. Kudos for me!)

Other factors that don't make it so clear cut for me that he was an INTJ are his prosaic style, lack of providing any objective evidence to support his theory. He was called "Prophetic, soothsaying, exaggerated and uninformed" (Schupforta) which doesn't scream scientific and precise to me. He mystical (argument for Ni) and poetic (I'd lean on INFJ...may any possible INTJ poets present not stone me...Amen)
As faults go INFJs are often said to be critical at their worst and INTJs selfish. It's hard to see which would be the case here as you could argue both sides.
His interests in philology, music (he composed and played piano), and religion sound very INFJ to me. His philosophy was said to have a humanistic bent and he valued psychology, claiming that it would offer the keys to philosophical problems. that said Sartre's philosophy was obviously centered around the individual as well. If I'd have the expertise I'd try to compare Kiergegaard-Nietzsche-Sartre to maybe analyze this further but I'm not. I enjoy reading philosophical works but have not analyzed them.
His secondary function would have began to manifest at twenty. Does it have a Fe or Te flavor????
His creativity peaked at thirty which is the time I've gathered we begin to develop our tertiary. I'd need more background info to see if it had a Fi or Ti tone. What would the experts say?
On the other hand the brusque style and reducing the affects specifically to the will to Power (strong willed Fi gripped INTJ reducing the world to WILL) could be blatantly indicative of INTJ as those are commonly attributed to INTJs. Then again is Nietzsche really self confident? Is his confidence the blossoming of a self assured individual bravely attesting to the firm Fi values or actually a Fe overwhelmed individual fighting against an impulse to fade into the perceived "herd" struggling to be firm and thus resulting in an exaggerated attempt to distance himself from the mass of non-self creating individuals?

 

[Zarathustra]

As I said, if you want to have a discussion about this, I'd recommend starting a thread.

This topic doesn't really interest me that much, as it's pretty clear to me that Nietzsche's an INTJ.

Just ask yourself this: if he were in an introverted loop, would it be an NiFi loop or an NiTi loop?

The answer to that question is obvious, and it's the only question you really need to answer.

Most of your analysis, no offense, is very simplistic and "stereotypish".

It sounds like characteristics culled from various profiles and piecemealed together.

That's a bad way to go about typing people, and a horrible way to try to understand typology.

An old member here used to call this folk typology. It's not the kind of analysis you want to engage in.

Getting to understand the functions is what really matters, cuz most everything else is just stereotyping.

No, not all INTJs "build systems", at least not external ones, and no, we're not all emotionally clueless retards.

Do we tend to build conceptual systems that may become manifest in the real world? Yes. We do tend to do that.

Do we often have "issues" with emotion? Yes. We do tend to have those. Even if we get better with them.

And are both of these reasonably accurate descriptions of Nietzsche? Well, yes. They are.

But no, we are not all robots, and having emotions, even strong emotions, is not inconsistent with being an INTJ.

What's pretty clear about Nietzsche is that he was an Ni-dom, and a Te/Fi-user, which points to only one type.

Expressing/showing emotion =/= feeler. That's the critical error you're making.

 

[Sniffles]

Does this count as a Ni visualization?
[youtube="uUlK2pPdU38"]Mushrooms[/youtube]

 

[Zarathustra]

Does this count as a Ni visualization?

Well, taking mushrooms and other psychedelics has been shown to cause a significant increase in a person's "Openness" score on the Five Factor Model, and that factor is the one correlated with iNtuition, so... it's not too far off.