Relational Competition and "Social" Bullying

[Alesia]

I'd like to understand what's in KMCE's mind. I find what he said disturbing but deeply interesting. How do those bullied ask for it? By being isolated? By being different? Why is that an adequate reason to bully someone? What about respect for diversity?

Why do they have it coming? By the remark about the gym, I assume he means those who are not physically fit, whether they are seen as too heavy or too thin. Must one assume that one has to be ready for attack, or ready to physically attack a bully?

Just baffled.

Yeah, that kind of bothered me too. That's why I think he put a after his statement, expecting some reaction like this. He said in a statement before that he is well built and thus not bullied.

But, to add to PT's statement. This isn't just an ISTJ attitude. I think it is an attitude of those who are of the "norm". It's very, very hard to explain to someone what it's like to be clinically depressed such that you truly cannot get out of bed, for example. You can't know this unless you've experienced it. I have. And my ISTJ husband took good care of me at my worst. But then got tired of it and said, why don't you just get over it?

The guy he described seemed like an INTP, to me. Socialy shy, a loner, reading books no one can understand, but aceing the exams. But, how is he to know what it is like to be something he is not? He may very well have nothing in his experience to show him. He's strong, well built, and an SJ, a more common type.

Some things you really can't understand unless you've been there.

 

[Crabapple]

Thank you,
ptgatsby and digesthisickness. I think I get it now. I totally don't agree- I mean, ideally, one should walk through one's life without fear, but

ptgatsby,
I was also bullied. So I can relate.

 

[sundowning]

I'm going to give KMCE the benefit of the doubt and assume he's referring to practical consequences of social behaviour. That's not to condone that such bullying is justified, but rather that it's the probable outcome.

A person has to decide what's more painful: fitting in or being an outcast.

 

[Crabapple]

But, to add to PT's statement. This isn't just an ISTJ attitude.... how is he to know what it is like to be something he is not? He may very well have nothing in his experience to show him. He's strong, well built, and an SJ, a more common type.

Some things you really can't understand unless you've been there.

Thank you, Alesia. I think you're right about "Some things you really can't understand unless you've been there." Yet I would expect compassion. Perhaps I am too idealistic. *sigh*

 

[digesthisickness]

Thank you,
ptgatsby and digesthisickness. I think I get it now. I totally don't agree- I mean, ideally, one should walk through one's life without fear, but

ptgatsby,
I was also bullied. So I can relate.

welcome. and, you're right. in an ideal world, the lamb would walk with the lion, but in reality, it's not how it works, and predators and prey come in human form too. not a pretty fact, but one just the same. and, unfortunately, to not buy into that thought process, or at least recognize its existence, one can find themselves used as an 'example' of 'fitness' for the easier to impress of us humans.

bullying is simple, it's easy, it doesn't require thought to understand it. that's usually all it takes for something to be used by the majority of people to communicate without words.

 

[ptgatsby]

Thank you,
ptgatsby and digesthisickness. I think I get it now. I totally don't agree- I mean, ideally, one should walk through one's life without fear, but

ptgatsby,
I was also bullied. So I can relate.

It is something you have to go through in order to understand, which is probably why we both feel strongly about it. I didn't post when I read that because it really infuriated me.

The ISTJ view that was expressed above is another view, an ethnocentric view for sure - but it reminds me how these things develop. It was completely practical and down to earth (and solving!) and hold no particular view on how things should be, only what is and how to deal with it, all within a very ethno-centric view. To me, it's completely correct at the same time as being totally wrong.

In terms of behaviour, there are four types - Victim, Bully, supporter and independent. INFJs would tend to fall into supporter-victim-independent (in that order) roles. INTPs would tend to fall into victim-independent-bully... And ISTJs would tend to fall into supporter-bully-independent. (This very roughly judged by FFM equivalent models using combined dominant trait scores.) I can't judge dominant bully behaviours because the dominant factor is emotional instability, meaning that these generalisations ignore the single largest factor!

 

[MacGuffin]

I had to quote this too once it had been drawn to my attention. My question to the universe: how on earth do so many INFPs get into serious relationships with ISTJs? I just don't get it. Is it masochism? Martyrdom? A wild leap towards the 'real' world? Some unholy Faustian bargain - your soul in exchange for security?

This isn't intended as a dig at ISTJs. I just wonder how, with all the types to choose from, it tends to be ISTJs they wind up with. If the above attitude is at all representative of ISTJ worldview, then what could an ISTJ find attractive about an INFP?

I have a close friend who is an INFP married to an ISTJ, and they are both fucking Miserable With Children.

Lol! I'm an INFP who married an ISTJ. And my father was INFP and my mother an ISTJ. Yeah, everywhere I find an INFP, and ISTJ seems sure to follow. What gives? And they are horrible matches.

From somewhere originally on the internet:

"INFPs and ISTJs generally exhibit a natural predator/prey relationship, which, though it might appear harsh and cruel from the outside, is all part of the natural cycle of life. In fact, were it not for the predation of the ISTJ, the population of INFPs would soon grow to unsustainable levels, overwhelming the ability of their ecological niche to support them."

 

[niffer]

From somewhere originally on the internet:

"INFPs and ISTJs generally exhibit a natural predator/prey relationship, which, though it might appear harsh and cruel from the outside, is all part of the natural cycle of life. In fact, were it not for the predation of the ISTJ, the population of INFPs would soon grow to unsustainable levels, overwhelming the ability of their ecological niche to support them."

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

From somewhere originally on the internet:

"INFPs and ISTJs generally exhibit a natural predator/prey relationship, which, though it might appear harsh and cruel from the outside, is all part of the natural cycle of life. In fact, were it not for the predation of the ISTJ, the population of INFPs would soon grow to unsustainable levels, overwhelming the ability of their ecological niche to support them."

I feel like "The Circle of Life" should be playing in the background...

 

[KMCE]

First of all I would like offer my apology to ptgatsby and Crabapple, and also to anyone who is offended by what I said. I think saying that the victims are "asking for it" and "have it coming" is bad taste and inappropriate. But that's an afterthought.

I think Alesia, digesthisickness, and ptgatsby have helped me tremendously in explaining and clarifying the vague parts of my message for Crabapple. So I would like to thank them for their efforts.

In particular I would like to quote this message from the perceptive ptgatsby, who have explained my choice of words succinctly:

What I noted is that he never actually said they "deserve" it, in the sense that is how things should be, only that they are 'asking' for it because of their refusals to integrate. The reference to the gym is akin to saying "not having taken any steps to prevent it, what do you expect"?

I don’t think bullying is what “should happen” to the antisocial kids that I mentioned. Ideally, no one should be bullied and everyone will accept each other unconditionally. But that would be a Utopian world. I don’t like to state the obvious, but the truth is, bullying is a universal phenomenon and almost every school has its own group of bullies. Since there’s no effective ways to deal with the problem of bullying, I think the fact that bully exists has to be accepted, and it is more realistic and practical to figure out ways to avoid being the victims of bullying (In my message I’ve listed 4 things that I have done that makes me immune to bullying but no one seems to notice). And talking about how wrong bullying is, and that it shouldn’t happen in any schools, seem to me to be all “talk” and no action.

Now I'd just answer all the questions that Crabapple raised.

Why is that an adequate reason to bully someone? What about respect for diversity?

There are no adequate reasons to bully, but bully does not reason with anyone. That’s what really matters.

Why do they have it coming? By the remark about the gym, I assume he means those who are not physically fit, whether they are seen as too heavy or too thin. Must one assume that one has to be ready for attack, or ready to physically attack a bully?

I'd explain the "have it coming" remark later.

For your other question: No. I mean it is better to be physically fit, and look like you can hold a punch. I don’t mean you need to go punch people and kick their ass. That makes you a bully.

I find what he said disturbing but deeply interesting. How do those bullied ask for it? By being isolated? By being different?

Disturbing? Maybe..

I’ll elaborate further. Here is a list of things that the "antisocial kids" I knew have done that has led them into troubles with the bully.

- They are physically weak and they don’t know any martial arts. This is the main reason why they get picked.

- They don’t try to make friends, so no one will come to their rescue.

- They don't usually respond to social invitations, and have no affiliation with any social clubs or sport teams. (No one deserve to be their friend? Everyone sucks) They seem to be telling people indirectly that they don’t like them, and people do get the message (the bully too).

- They seem to be hostile to everyone for no apparent reasons. e.g. if you walk pass them in the hallway, they either look at the floor without greeting you, or they give you this ‘menacing stare’, like you own them something. Obviously, bully won’t like that.

- They usually get top marks in exams but show no interests in assisting others in learning. This is actually fine, but they do nothing to help the class or the school either e.g. school organized party/picnic/anniversary celebration/other school duties. But they are a part of it too. So, other students tend to see them as very selfish and self-absorbed. And when they get bullied, other students will honestly need stronger reasons to consider helping them out. After all, no one wants to get themselves into danger for someone who seems to hate their guts.

- Listening to songs from Marilyn Manson and other freaks at full throttle, thereby making everyone aware of what they are listening to. (The guy has inspired a kid to shoot up his school so go figure). They think they are ‘bad ass’ and ‘inspiring fear in others’ but no one in their right minds would agree.

- Their attitude. The “I don’t give a flying fuck about the world” attitude won’t make them popular. There’s too much “nihilism” going on with them, like nothing is really enjoyable except their rather narrow interests. Bully tends to pick on the lonely depressed kid so.

(There’re more, but I think that’s enough)

The above reasons are why I say they are “asking for it” and “have it coming”. I regret for using those words but they are what I have in mind when I wrote that message.

The whole idea is that bullying is a universal phenomenon and I think, as harsh as it may sound, that it is part of students’ responsibility to do something to make themselves less vulnerable as targets of bullying. So, if the antisocial kids insist on not doing anything to protect themselves then what can I say.

I think it is just an “accepting the reality like it is” kind of thing. You may not like it, but if you can’t change it, then you must adapt. Time to face the world like a man.

Hemingway said: “The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong at the broken places.” I agree.

 

[KMCE]

These questions are off topic but I'd just go ahead and answer them as well... I've too much free time on my hand.

I totally don't agree- I mean, ideally, one should walk through one's life without fear, but

These are just my opinions. Ideally...

- People can do their jobs without constant fear of being laid off and company won’t downside.

- Women can walk through a parking lot at night without worrying about the possibility of being robbed or taken away.

- Everyone can feel safe when traveling to a foreign country because the local always treat tourists fairly and won’t ever think of stealing their baggage or ripping them off.

- Justice will be served to you without you fighting for it.

(And let’s not get into the 'problems' between men and women.)

I know these are the ‘should be’, but I honestly think they are all wishful thinking.

I think you're right about "Some things you really can't understand unless you've been there." Yet I would expect compassion. Perhaps I am too idealistic. *sigh*

Well... this is directed to me. I think you aren’t really expecting too much. I don’t usually show ‘compassion’ in the Internet because it seems so fake. Because I think you can’t really say you care about a person unless you actually have done something for them. Talk is free, you know, so to me compassion in the Internet comes very close to bullshitting. So I prefer to just state the facts.

Many people take offense to what I said but hey I probably am more truthful than most.

 

[Maverick]

Good post KMCE. You come from a very realistic perspective.

Here's my view:

Reality is malleable. Everything can change. Talking about bullying isn't just cheap talk. It's creating social influence and values. Change in a society comes from these redefinitions. History is full of such succesful examples. Look, recently, at how feminists managed to secure a more comfortable status for women. It takes time and it's hard work. However, the "weak" option is giving in and conforming. The "strong" option is fighting for what you know will be better. If all women had told themselves "Well, it's nearly universal that men make sure their wives are submissive so why change? It's better to adapt", there would never have been any change. In sum, we need to take action to ensure that no kid will be allowed to be bullied again physically or psychologically. Talking is a necessary first step as it contributes to spreading values and raising interest, which in turn influences people's behavior.

 

[Alienclock]

Good post KMCE. You come from a very realistic perspective.

Here's my view:

Reality is malleable. Everything can change. Talking about bullying isn't just cheap talk. It's creating social influence and values. Change in a society comes from these redefinitions. History is full of such succesful examples. Look, recently, at how feminists managed to secure a more comfortable status for women. It takes time and it's hard work. However, the "weak" option is giving in and conforming. The "strong" option is fighting for what you know will be better. If all women had told themselves "Well, it's nearly universal that men make sure their wives are submissive so why change? It's better to adapt", there would never have been any change. In sum, we need to take action to ensure that no kid will be allowed to be bullied again physically or psychologically. Talking is a necessary first step as it contributes to spreading values and raising interest, which in turn influences people's behavior.

So said the N to the S. oh, wait, I hate *typism.*

 

[ptgatsby]

First of all I would like offer my apology to ptgatsby and Crabapple, and also to anyone who is offended by what I said. I think saying that the victims are "asking for it" and "have it coming" is bad taste and inappropriate. But that's an afterthought.

I wasn't offended, so no worries. I did find it very interesting, and my reactions were based upon my past more than anything you said.

 

[Crabapple]

First of all I would like offer my apology to ptgatsby and Crabapple, and also to anyone who is offended by what I said. I think saying that the victims are "asking for it" and "have it coming" is bad taste and inappropriate. But that's an afterthought.

Thank you for apologizing. I wasn't so much insulted as pained and confused.

I don

 

[meshou]

Basicly, anything you do could possibly have a negitive concequence. Doing the right thing, being careful, doesn't garantee good things'll happen to you by a longshot.

And so, just assuming people who have horrible shit happen to them deserve it is bullshit. Yes, they could have done better. Everyone can do better. Bullying, rape, robbey, whatever, is often pretty fucking arbitrary, and some very good people have some pretty nasty things happen to them because they're good people. You are not rewarded for being a good person.

People want to believe that you must have done something wrong to deserve the bad shit that happens to you, because then all they have to do to avoid tragedy is keep being the good people they are. They get to pretend they have control over their own lives.

 

[kuranes]

I always wondered who listened to groups like Marilyn Manson.

When I was in High School I shared some of the traits that were described. Getting high grades on tests and essays. Spending time reading odd books. But I didn't turn away from people who wanted to chit-chat with me. I was quite talkative even then.

I remember being in the library once and overhearing something coming from a table of college prep kids. The "leader" of the group was a guy known for his basketball skills. One member of their group was a guy who was such a "teacher's pet" that he would actually go up to teachers and say that his pending college scholarship required that he get an "A" in every class. Most of the other guys in this clicque were also jocks with smarts though. A clicque with some class to it that maybe wondered why I never tried to join ( by always laughing at the leader's jokes etc.) IOW. The leader spoke loud enough for me to hear, although softly enough that he could pretend to be just conversing with his sycophants.

"Look at Kuranes over there, trying to act so nonchalant" he said.

There were certainly times at school when I was "acting" and doing the "cocky bird walking amongst cats" part. ( I love that analogy ! ) In this case I was genuinely looking for a particular book, nor were these guys exactly true "cats".

I guess I could have chosen that time to walk over to the table and make a joke like "I resemble that remark" and see if they wanted to break the ice. But I didn't. I went back to my seat with the book ( having found it a minute later ) and read it.

None of us nerdy types then were much for the snarling, and trenchcoats with thrash metal decals etc. I guess that was for nerds of the future, still to come. We didn't radiate hostility. I was actually in some clubs, but they weren't considerded "cool" clubs - mostly because they didn't involve sports, which was the only thing these types considered "cool". I was actually embarrassed when I would win some National Forensics trophy and have a photo of me appear on the cover of our local paper. I did help people with their schoolwork, but only to a point. If they tried to play a game of being friendly only in private, then I would burn them eventually.

I didn't join the sports clubs teams because I either was ( A. ) not skilled enough in that particular sport, or because ( B. ) I knew the team was crawling with the same jerks that liked to give me a hard time. I probably could have made the football team.

I made an ally, without really even trying, with this one guy who had been held back a couple years, who was on the football team. He was not only really tall, but also tremendously musclebound. I had helped him a few times in my weakest subject, Math. I didn't think he even remembered it.

So...later on this other guy was dissing me verbally, although he was too cautious to be a real bully ( cat ), and he was hoping that some others would come along so that they could get up their nerve to actually DO something to me that would get them a reaction. Some of the bullies ( that he sucked up to ) came into the room about then, and I could tell by their facial expressions that they were thinking of adding themselves ( in words or deed ) as "gasoline" to the embers that this initial guy ( Rick Daum was his name ) had fanned into life.

That was when the big guy I described earlier stood up and grabbed Rick by his neck and threw him across the aisle into some chairs, saying "STFU Dum-Dum" and that was the end of that. I remember thinking of him when that movie came out years later called "My Bodyguard" or something. That summer I grew from being a fairly short guy into nearly my full 6 foot 4 height that I have now.
That wouldn't have changed things much for the actual "cats" in my school, but they were usually not the problem. There were only a few serious badasses who ( mildly ) disliked me. If they attacked it was usually just out of boredom, vs. real resentment It was usually the suck-ups to the big cats that were the problem. Some of them were built pretty solid themselves, and they were in groups with other suck-ups often enough. One time, back when i was still a little guy, I had the pleasure of kicking the ass of a major suck-up, in gym class, in front of a wrestling team referee. I smiled when I heard the very "cats" they sucked up to cheering ME on. After my height and size changed, some of the same guys that had once harassed me began to subtly suck up to ME. It would have beeen funny to do something about it, but by then I was getting ready to leave for college. In my mind, I had already left high school. I got into a class for "advanced" study and didn't even have to go to the old watering holes/classes anymore.

 

[Crabapple]

Thank you for apologizing. I wasn't so much insulted as pained and confused.

I don

Oh man! Everything I wrote was totally eaten by this thing!

 

[Zergling]

This thread has certainly gone off topic.

Reality is malleable. Everything can change. Talking about bullying isn't just cheap talk. It's creating social influence and values. Change in a society comes from these redefinitions. History is full of such succesful examples. Look, recently, at how feminists managed to secure a more comfortable status for women. It takes time and it's hard work. However, the "weak" option is giving in and conforming. The "strong" option is fighting for what you know will be better. If all women had told themselves "Well, it's nearly universal that men make sure their wives are submissive so why change? It's better to adapt", there would never have been any change. In sum, we need to take action to ensure that no kid will be allowed to be bullied again physically or psychologically. Talking is a necessary first step as it contributes to spreading values and raising interest, which in turn influences people's behavior.

This is definitely true from my view as well.

It's actually interesting to see how social groups of kids share a lot of similarities with different parts of politics. You have the various cliques and alliances, lots of people fear something different, aggression towards things strange and different, etc. Over the long term, these types of values tend to cause problems in societies and weaken them (people loose differences in opinion and skill of adapting to other differences, and have less of an ability to adapt to changes in the world.), so dealing with these values when people are young has some importance.

I've actually been at the receiving end of a lot of the sort of social crap described earlier in the thread. In school before 8th grade I mostly got the "male" sort where people would be pains in the ass directly, later on I got the "female" sort (That was done by a mixed group of males and females), where I over time ended up more and more cut off from a lot of the friendships and activities going on. (One of these group where the "female" thing happened really hurt, as it was the first time I felt like I actually had a lot in common with a large group of people. After getting kicked out of that, plus after some more social crap happened with people I was much less invested in, I've given up on the idea of having really close friends with a lot in common.)

The "male" form is preferred, personally, because it's easy to see from the outset who the problems will be, and most males who aren't problems are a lot of fun to hang around, joke, and such with. The "female" form is much harder for me to deal with, since it is often based on breaking some unwritten rule, or just accidentally annoying some random person without them realizing it, and suddenly the bullied pertson finds themself less and less accepted in the group, and not sure why, or how to change it.