Random Star Trek thoughts

[The Cat]

Reginald Barclay, is so damned relatable.

 

[Totenkindly]

Based on conversations I've had, I decided to give Picard S2 (and S3) a chance. I have watched about 1.5 episodes in Season 2.

To get my initial gripe off my chest, here's how I envision the writing room:

Showrunner: we're stuck making another season, although I hoped to get a deal with Netflix on original properties. Any ideas after nothing was left from Season 1?

Writer 1: We don't have any ideas.

Writer 2: Well, when that is the case, why not make a season involving the Borg again? Everyone loves the Borg!

Writer 3: yeah, YEAH -- and we're introduce Q again too! Everyone loves Q!

Showrunner: Wow, what a great idea -- and the network knows those properties, so they will be happy with us! make it so!

So yeah, episode 1 -- the freakin' borg + even Q again. Because we can't do new stuff, and keep falling back on the same ol' things that people like.

... However, I must admit it's already stronger than Season 1:

• The writing of the first episode is actually tighter and better quality (rather than generic fluff).
• It's better directed.
• A few of the action sequences actually had momentum to them and felt dangerous.
• It looks like they are revising Agnes (Alison Pill's character) to actually fall back on her strengths as an actress (I wonder if she had input to the character?) and avoid the milquetoast grinning idiot doctor she played in S1, because she's sassier, snappier, and more sardonic out of the box.
• In general, they seem to have reset to a grittier show versus some kind of shallower version of "This is Us [in Space!]" like they ended up, having people go back to their more realistic pathways for their lives.

So I will keep watching. It could actually end up being better overall than Season. I really don't get why reviewers liked Season 1 -- it was just ... kinda bad TV aside from maybe one scene each episode (and the Troi/Riker episode was okay). It really felt like they didn't know what they wanted to do during Season 1 except say goodbye to Data. I think some of the TV reviewers RT scores are just untrustworthy for franchise shows because they are invested in the franchise; I tend to trust RT TV reviewers more for indie shows without a franchise involved, those tend to be more "independent" reviewers who just evaluate a show against all other shows out there, and they're falling back on core storytelling and features rather than franchise world consistency and nostalgia.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Based on conversations I've had, I decided to give Picard S2 (and S3) a chance. I have watched about 1.5 episodes in Season 2.

To get my initial gripe off my chest, here's how I envision the writing room:



So yeah, episode 1 -- the freakin' borg + even Q again. Because we can't do new stuff, and keep falling back on the same ol' things that people like.

... However, I must admit it's already stronger than Season 1:

• The writing of the first episode is actually tighter and better quality (rather than generic fluff).
• It's better directed.
• A few of the action sequences actually had momentum to them and felt dangerous.
• It looks like they are revising Agnes (Alison Pill's character) to actually fall back on her strengths as an actress (I wonder if she had input to the character?) and avoid the milquetoast grinning idiot doctor she played in S1, because she's sassier, snappier, and more sardonic out of the box.
• In general, they seem to have reset to a grittier show versus some kind of shallower version of "This is Us [in Space!]" like they ended up, having people go back to their more realistic pathways for their lives.

So I will keep watching. It could actually end up being better overall than Season. I really don't get why reviewers liked Season 1 -- it was just ... kinda bad TV aside from maybe one scene each episode (and the Troi/Riker episode was okay). It really felt like they didn't know what they wanted to do during Season 1 except say goodbye to Data. I think some of the TV reviewers RT scores are just untrustworthy for franchise shows because they are invested in the franchise; I tend to trust RT TV reviewers more for indie shows without a franchise involved, those tend to be more "independent" reviewers who just evaluate a show against all other shows out there, and they're falling back on core storytelling and features rather than franchise world consistency and nostalgia.

Aside from retreading the same old villains, another thing that bothered me (and this is kind of nitpicky), was how trite and lazy some of the dialogue was. Picard referred to an entirely new class of ship as a "refit". I know it's a minor point, but in pretty much every previous trek (and in real world usage, for that matter), the term refit has always referred to a preexisting craft/ship/vehicle that has been upgraded, modified, and/or rehauled to bring the specs up to current technology. The Stargazer we saw in the PIC season 2 was almost certainly a new ship/class and not a refit of an older class or vessel. The design is obviously inspired by an older design, but that doesn't make it a refit. The writers can't even be bothered to maintain any sense of consistency with pre-established rules (in this case a rule that has its basis in the real world). I know it's niticky as hell of me, but I think this sort of thing is important in maintaining believability and coherency. I'd expect this sort of lazy oversight in a fan film production, maybe, but in a high budget series that is the official continuation of TNG with writers who are supposedly touted as highly talented and among the best, it's unforgivable. They need some sort of universe bible or a consultant like the Okudas checking their scripts before this shit goes to production. It's fucking drivel and feels like they don't even care as long as they can drop some member berries and rack up the views.

The most unforgivable oversight since the deck numbering oversight in star trek V. Hell, that wasn't even as bad because it was a blink and miss it error. This was a line uttered by Picard and it makes the writers look lazy--in universe, it makes the character of Picard look senile

 

[Totenkindly]

I guess they are writing for idiots like me who would never even recognize that kinds of things you have noticed -- I just am not that well acquainted with the details.

I guess personally, I would rather have them screw up the word "re-fit" and tell an actually good story that moves me in some way and that I will want to rewatch in the future, versus getting the word correct but writing shitty episodes that leave me wanting to bail after three episodes.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I guess they are writing for idiots like me who would never even recognize that kinds of things you have noticed -- I just am not that well acquainted with the details.

I guess personally, I would rather have them screw up the word "re-fit" and tell an actually good story that moves me in some way and that I will want to rewatch in the future, versus getting the word correct but writing shitty episodes that leave me wanting to bail after three episodes.

If it were a great, original story, I'd overlook shit like that. But I only notice it more when everything else is so lazy and overdone. It's like the cherry on top of a shit sundae. There's plenty of past inconsistencies and dumb shit I overlooked because the overall shows or episodes might still be solid. I could overlook a DS9 episode contradicting some canon detail because the episode writing tended to be so strong and I was so involved in the story to not really mind. It's easier to notice when the story is boring and not keeping me engaged, because at that point all that's left to be wowed by are the visuals and non-crucial lore. If they can't even get those right, there's nothing left worth watching lol

Another example, The best ST films like Khan and Undiscovered Country had their shares of things that arguably contradicted preestablished things, but it's forgivable when you have solid writing and direction.

 

[Totenkindly]

Anyway, S2 seems better than S1 at this point... but I'll see how I feel as I push forward.

 

[Totenkindly]

Okay, I finished Season 2 of Picard last night and have started Season 3. As a general comment, I would say that the seasons of this series in particular always start REALLY well -- they're great at beginnings -- but feel often like they lose their way, so I'm a little nervous about Season 3.

Season 1 had intriguing opener, which then takes a left turn and just becomes a complete jumbled mess of plotting and coherence so that it was difficult to care much about the characters or where the show was going. It felt like they knew the last 15 minutes (with the new Data resolution and where they wanted Picard) but didn't have a real rubber-meets-road story in place except "artificial person" rights. God, that was a slog to get through, and I'll never watch anything again aside from the last 20 minutes. It also ended up feeling like "happy glowy ragtag band of adventurers in space with This is Us feels/music" even if it wasn't earned, and they miscast Alison Pill.

Season 2 ended up being incredibly watchable, however, and felt like others had taken over the show direction. I finished it in something like 4 days (I watched 5 episodes on Saturday, to complete it.)

Some Pro's

• Utilizing Alison Pill properly. Her story arc actually fits the actress' skills.
• (extended) cameos. Some like Guinan were actually pretty great (Ito Aghayere had an interesting younger take on the character).
• Resets for some of the character arcs, like the Raffi and Seven romance. The stupid way Season 1 ended with "happy misfit family in space" was kind of retconned for the beginning of this season -- nothing was as rosy as they showed, and characters pursued their normal personalities sometimes in detrimental ways.
• Not getting too caught up in a dystopian alternate reality.
• Housecleaning. A lot of characters get cleaned off the board in various ways by the end of Season 2. This isn't a bad thing for setting up Season 3.
• Some great backstory fleshout for characters. Also -- they let the characters actually be both their best and worst selves instead of writing them in a rosy way. I like that Raffi is shown repeatedly to be judgmental, impulsive, emotional, and vengeful, and has to learn how to moderate some of that -- yes, I find her annoying because I don't identify with much of that, but it also felt real to me, she's a real person. (I think I related most to Agnes and Seven.)
  The Borg Queen was actually great, as well as the extensive interplay between her and Agnes and the redirection of the borg later. (It's sad the actress died recently from cancer.) I like too the physical distress she had suffered. As someone who also feels very alone in the world, I totally understood both characters and their cravings.
• The whole season felt far more focused than Season 1, like they actually had understandable plots broken down that made sense, and everyone was working towards the same goal, and you could see where it was going (in general) and understand it more than the random clusterf*ck of Season 1.
• The season actually had a theme, which I took as "the importance of having relationships with others, both to get help and provide help and also not feel so terribly alone." Characters often are suffering in a vacuum, but even when weak they are made strong either by accepting help from others and/or at least just being willing to talk about what their fear and pain. The characters who refuse real help/vulnerability often are stuck in patterns where they hurt others.
• I really like how Picard changes the mind of the FBI agent in mid-season. This is classic "find the need/desire so we can help each other," vs "find my enemy's weakness so I can destroy him" strategy and mirrored things I was even taught during leadership course curriculum. It was very insightful and kind of awesome.

Some Con's

• I mentioned before, when they don't have a plot, it's always back to "Borg" and "Q". I guess they're stuck for Season 3, for various reasons, at least. And they did do a fairly good job with bringing closure to these storylines and generally utilizing them in interesting ways. The finale with Q wasn't quite what I expected.
  With a theme of the need for help/community to feel whole and/or accomplish the most good for this season, I thought the plot was "Q uses Picard to get himself healed, by manipulating and threatening him, instead of simply asking like he could have and being dependent on others in good ways -- and learns maybe he needs to change his ways." Instead they ended up just allowing Q to give an affectionate showy goodbye to Picard and maybe he's not such a bad guy after all. It was written well, I'm just not sure how I feel about it big-picture-wise and across the Season 2 theme.
• Again, endings. Super beginning, and it was doing okay, but they really started dropping the ball partway through Episode 8, most of Episode 9, and then parts of the finale. Looking at the writers, I suspect the weakest writers in the pool drew Episode 9, which kinda sucks.
• The Borg are all based on being a hive mind. WT living F didn't they actually fight like it in Episode 9, which consists of heroes pairing up, while lone borg attack them in an abandoned building? They should have all been attacking together and coordinating all of their attacks, except they would have then totally eradicated the heroes. It was a huge let-down on how this "action" was handled. Better yet, they have Picard shooting a revolver in the dark at a trio and one-shots a borg (who is a trained crack troop before becoming a borg), then spins around and one-shots a lock off a door at range. Yeah, no. Guns and phasers aren't the same thing, does he really have experience with recoil? He's also 80-90 years old, his hands are not that steady. And shooting the lock off a door? How laughable. A lot of the bad writing shit was just poor conception in this episode -- like, "shitty TV action sequences what are essentially fantasy because it just wouldn't work that way, but we need a conventional fight and resolution."
• I felt like some of the drama also was sloppily written in the ending episodes. There were some good bits that I suspect Akira Goldsmith wrote (he has a lot of experience and a vision for how it should feel) but the stuff written by the assigned writers for those episodes wasn't very compelling.
• Cameos. For example, a few minutes of Wesley Crusher -- yes, I like Wil Wheaton, but it was kinda like a mere nod and pretty much just straight-forward with no surprises. This bit might have been clipped except it also ties up the Kore character (who is essentially a cameo of Soji from Season 1). Also, how many effin' times do I need to see Brent Spiner play someone from the Soong family tree? I love Spiner, but... man. Also, he's kind of chewing up the scenery, which he's good at, but I don't particularly care about the character. (Did we know of his connection to another famous ST baddie before this? I don't recall.)
• A bit too on the nose at times. Parts of this season felt like, "Boy, ICE is pretty shitty in how they treat immigrants," and, "Humans are destroying the planet and becoming more xenophobic, boy are they dumb," and, finally, "Depression is a crushing thing, but it's okay to talk about and to take care of your loved ones." These are not bad topics, but the writing sometimes was really clumsy with the attention/approach focused on them and it started to venture into "preachy woke" style instead of being compelling. I wonder if some of the lower IMDB scores resulted from this, as they are lower than Season 1 but should have been higher than Season 1.
• No scifi film or show should ever be using Edith Piaf's "Non, Je Ne Regrette Rien" for many years, ever since it was the core audial concept around which Inception was built. Like, the general American audience didn't even know who Edith Piaf was, but that song is now imprinted on an entire generation of movie goers. Using it repeatedly in this season of Picard felt so cheap and unimaginative, even if the lyrics aligned in some ways. You just can't use that freaking song except in passing, honestly, especially in the scifi genre.

I watched S3E1 this morning and it's really great, honestly. So I'm warily hopeful and also on edge that they might again write a weaker ending to the season and series. What's really great is that the "cameos" don't feel like cameos, I feel like we're getting a real story here... and they are allowing the TNG cast to actually be themselves. Riker is really great, he really feels like Riker even to the bottom of his flaws (he can be rather obnoxious at time, a bit bullying in his extraverted way, he treats Sidney pretty terribly while thinking he's just being cute -- but it's kind of unprofessional and embarrassing for her). Shaw feels both real and awful. Seven has a totally Seven response to what is happening, I love her anger and yet her decisions and the order in which she carries them out. And so on. There's a lot of ironic humor here in the episode. I'm actually really wanting to see what happens and am glad I won't have long to wait since they will hit the series finale in about 10 days.

And we haven't seen a lot of Beverly yet, but she's just stunning in her older age, and she's more ruthless than she used to be (there must be a story there), and I'm looking forward to finding out what this is.

Episode 2: Also really great. Amanda Plummer is an actress I love in pretty much anything she's done (yes, she's Christopher Plummer's daughter), and she's malevolent and creepy here. She usually brings a distinctive flair to whatever she does. Anyway, they are even handling action sequences well in this episode (whether direct combat or ship combat), it's all pretty unsettling and feels threatening. I even actually tear up when Picard and Bev Crusher lock eyes. And hey a great Ferengi broker sequence too. Please don't drop the ball!

 

[Totenkindly]

Finished two more episodes of Picard, so that brings me up to starting s3e5 next. These episodes run about 50-60 minutes apiece. Normally this would be drudgery, but the drama itself is so well-done this season. It feels like a movie investment level of quality (srsly -- it feels like .far better quality than the TNG cinematic releases) and even for a regular scifi drama film, not a franchise TV show. It's been rather riveting. And the callbacks haven't been cheap except for an occasional moment, it feels like callbacks to characters, species, and plot factoids from TNG on occasion without feeling cheesy or forced. They are weaving in stuff at times you would might remember if you've seen TNG and/or otherwise know what happened to the characters after.

This is feeling like something of a quality level approaching Star Wars: Andor, compared to any other TNG related series I have seen. If it manages to maintain this level of quality, I will be blown away. The ninth episode drops on Thurs and the series finale on April 20, so I've got 9 days to finish five more hours before the finale drops. I'm not sure what happened with the studio. It's like they finally got serious about making something memorable rather than just throwing crap at the screen and assuming it would make money because it's a franchise. I hope it ends up being one hell of a send-off.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

They shoulda skipped all of the stupid Borg Queen and Romulan bullshit and just made this the one standalone Picard season. Although getting a last meeting with Q was kind of nice.

 

[Totenkindly]

I have to say, Michelle Forbes really delivers. I knew she would.

Really blatant spoilers, DO NOT read unless you've seen Episode 5.

My heart is crushed. Torn out, crushed, and thrown away in a pile in the corner.

It was bad enough how long-awaited and brutal Ro's and Picard's long-awaited reconnection was -- everything you could ever expect. And then where Picard comes to realize his bitterness and rage was on him, not her, he's the one who has had the problem and unreasonable expectations and judgment. The kind old wise man realized that, at least in this matter, he's been an insufferable judgmental prick. I love it when his anger finally goes and he gets to the core of his pain, being vulnerable: "you broke my heart." Yes. That's why he's been so angry. She wasn't who he wanted her to be, and it crushed him.

I was already teared up pretty bad over that whole resolution... and then the whole final bit of her plot arc. I just sobbed for a few minutes. Ro was always true to who she was. Just an amazing character. That is hitting me this badly is impressive for a character I haven't really seen for years, even decades. I'm going to be rocked by this for quite awhile, it's just crushing.

Going along with that, I love how they keep it in doubt (because of the bad blood between her and Picard) whose side she is really on, and how much you're hoping she's still true. Forbes plays it so damn well. They really drag it out, and then they duck into the holodeck.

And her last gift to Picard first has amazing emotional resonance... followed by a really practical and intelligent resonance. Ro is just brilliant. It's funny that Wil recognizes the gift before Picard does, because he's hung up on the emotional aspect of it and what it means personally to him.

Dammit. I'm going to feel brutalized all night.

 

[Totenkindly]

Picard S3E8 "Surrender"

F*ckin' solids...
That's a good one.

I'm glad Data merged with Lore. I think that was narratively what has needed to happen for a long time, and I was worried there would be some kind of cop-out. I didn't exactly favor the way it almost came off as a strategy to "win" but I appreciated when he told Lore he was giving him each memory because "I have had everything, and you have nothing." And Lore essentially "lost" (with a goal of dominating / replacing Data wholesale) by accepting everything Data was, in essence becoming Data, and thus the two are merged. So he is essentially a composite of Data and Lore now. (How Jungian can you get?) While he is clearly Data's benevolence, he's more flippant, sarcastic, free-wheeling, and proactive instead of detached and purely introspective. It's an interesting character shift for him. I also felt this form of resurrection didn't necessarily violate the Data memory pod's desire to terminate its own existence and bring closure to a life inside in a tiny module. Because that is still part of who Data is too. Remarkably, because of his nature, a valid "Data" has been able to experience termination, while another valid "Data" is continuing to live.

Riker and Troi really are in sync with each other. They relate to each other so freely. It's rather cool.

I feel like they've mostly played Worf for humor this season. Which is okay, I guess. I haven't been emotionally invested in much of his arc, and it might be too much to be overly dramatic with everyone. Still, I feel like he has been the least influential presence this season and could have been replaced by a no-name or just Raffi doing her thing.

---

And then getting to this, which is mostly why I wanted to make this post:

Beverly: There's something happening to [Jack.] He has abilities we can't explain...
Picard: Whatever the cause, it's getting stronger.
Troi: There's a darkness in that boy. Not in him, but around him or passing through him. And a voice inside him -- ancient & weak. But a voice that isn't his own.

come on, you can't tell me y'all didn't immediately think of that too!

 

[Totenkindly]

Picard S3E9 "Vox"

Troi, you're a shitty counselor.
"Don't worry, I'll be with you every step of the way!" [Flees as soon as she sees what's past the door and finks on Jack, calling him a "threat"]
Picard, you're a shitty father.
"Sorry I shat on your gene pool, but you're confined to quarters." [Forgets that Jack can Borg people, which is the only reason he's there, and you can't hold him]
Talk about completely fucking up how to handle Jack. Could they have done a worse job? Jesus.
He wouldn't have run, if they had treated him with some respect.

As SOON as they started talking about what they had found in the transporter banks, I started laughing and laughing and laughing. I knew exactly the implications of where this was going. It's definitely a vulnerability in the transporter system, and boy did it get exploited! (Sorry, as a Systems gal, I can laugh at poor Systems design and/or vulnerable hacks in other systems.) Maybe it was supposed to be chilling, but I was just howling with laughter for a few minutes.

Data is so Data but Not Data -- kind of like a complex Data now. He's actually sarcastic, just not in the mean way Lore was. He's funny, and human -- I love that he stopped talking and just put his hand on Picard's shoulder to console him. DATA!

Goddamn, not Shaw!!! He really grew on me in this series. I felt bad for him this series, it's like he was running the perfectly organized ship in episode 1 and then Picard and Riker show up and his whole structured controlled life went to hell and it's like he could barely keep up with one disaster after the next. He has tried so hard to roll with the punches while his view of the universe collapsed and burned. I cried when he called Annaka "Seven of Nine," because it was really clear what that meant to her and how he was accepting her in a way he never had before. EDIT: Or was he just being a sarcastic dipshit? The Titan is run by Borg, so he tells Annaka "It's your ship now" and calls her Seven of Nine. Now I'm not sure, but boy is this awesome!

Shelby (Elizabeth Dennehy, Brian Dennehy's daughter) was a nice surprise -- although she might be a little cooked through by now.

I felt like the introduction of the Enterprise-D was handled pretty well and seamlessly, as I didn't even really think of it until Geordi took them back to the museum and then it was like ... oh wow, I see where this is going. It even totally makes sense, because it's analog and not patched into the Wifi fleet. (Don't ask me how they're gonna WIN anything, but... okay.)

Biggest question, as while my ST card has a ton of punches in it, I know I'm not quite the nerd as some folks on this forum, sooooo: Are there two Borg queens in this timeline now? This one is obviously NOT the Jurati Queen, based on voice alone -- and in fact sounds like the original Queen. Basically the timeline of the Confederation in Season 2 was reset when Picard fixed the timeline, but that left Agnes / Borg Queen from the old Confederacy future moving forward from that point in time. So I guess although typically there are not two or more Queens around, in this case there are now -- one is the conventional Borg Queen related to Picard (perhaps) and the other the misplaced Borg Queen who only assimilates willing supplicants, to provide "second chances" and find a community. This original Borg Queen has been playing the long game so to speak.

I like how this interfaces with Shaw's earlier hatred of the Borg, hostility toward Picard, rant about what Picard did at Wolf Station. It actually justifies his attitude and shows Picard was always compromised on some level despite having good intentions. I also am left wondering if Jurati Borg Queen will show up as well, and we'll get some nice Borg on Borg action with rival hives. I also like that Jack's powers are not "space magic," but actually make sense. Picard's DNA was changed even if he looked restored, there were hints of this in the series and later, and Jack has a reason for being a transmitter -- his DNA was modified to be borg biotech.

 

[The Cat]

I finished voyager, I dont remember it ending so abruptly; but i was a kid and there was a lot going on at home. So I didnt always get to see what happened and i was checked out a lot. It was like ripping a bandaid off. would have been nice to get a few episodes of everyone back home but its like whatever. Im watching dicovery now that theres four seasons, and I like it pretty well so far. I like what they're doing with Lorca, though I wish they'd done it a little differently, I keep hoping for a mirror universe redemption arc, and i think any other time but 2018 we'd have gotten that. As it stands, my biggest gripe is is feels in a liminal space between classic startrek and the future, everything looks too futuristic. Dont get me wrong its pretty and it works, but i feel like this show would do better in the future. Jason Isaacs is doing what he does best, and I enjoy the hell out of the character, just wish we got that mirror universe happy ending like in ds9 i was also hoping we got seven seasons of enterprise but it wasnt in the cards either. But all that aside its pretty good so far, I like the crew, I like the spore drive, and I like the light sensetivity its relatable. Im pretty sure we''re living in that mirror universe, we're definitly the terrans theyr e talking about iny way they just got back to the mirror universe but ive loved the little details tht they show for the audience to figutre it out before the crew., fun show, hope they get seven

 

[Totenkindly]

I finished voyager, I dont remember it ending so abruptly; but i was a kid and there was a lot going on at home. So I didnt always get to see what happened and i was checked out a lot. It was like ripping a bandaid off. would have been nice to get a few episodes of everyone back home but its like whatever. Im watching dicovery now that theres four seasons, and I like it pretty well so far. I like what they're doing with Lorca, though I wish they'd done it a little differently, I keep hoping for a mirror universe redemption arc, and i think any other time but 2018 we'd have gotten that. As it stands, my biggest gripe is is feels in a liminal space between classic startrek and the future, everything looks too futuristic. Dont get me wrong its pretty and it works, but i feel like this show would do better in the future. Jason Isaacs is doing what he does best, and I enjoy the hell out of the character, just wish we got that mirror universe happy ending like in ds9 i was also hoping we got seven seasons of enterprise but it wasnt in the cards either. But all that aside its pretty good so far, I like the crew, I like the spore drive, and I like the light sensetivity its relatable. Im pretty sure we''re living in that mirror universe, we're definitly the terrans theyr e talking about iny way they just got back to the mirror universe but ive loved the little details tht they show for the audience to figutre it out before the crew., fun show, hope they get seven

how far did you get in season 1 and/or how many spoilers did you read about the season?

It's a season that is laden with twists, and I wish they had treated them more carefully as well (they have some great puzzles but expose the answers FAR too quickly).

I really liked Lorca through much of the season.

I never finished Voyager. I think I watched 1.5 - 2 seasons when it was airing, then got bored with it.

 

[The Cat]

how far did you get in season 1 and/or how many spoilers did you read about the season?

It's a season that is laden with twists, and I wish they had treated them more carefully as well (they have some great puzzles but expose the answers FAR too quickly).

I really liked Lorca through much of the season.

I never finished Voyager. I think I watched 1.5 - 2 seasons when it was airing, then got bored with it.

Indeed, entierly too jam packed and rushed. (I wanted at least 3 seasons with this Lorca plot and I maintain that I want an extended show set in the mirror universe.) They just got to the mirror universe. I've been enjoying the heck out of Lorca; the writers have done a great job dropping clues, I have enjoyed how he "inspires" the crew to push past their limits unselfishly. If Stammits hadnt folded with "Just one more jump" I don't think Lorca would have rushed his plans.

Ive managed to stay away from spoilers, ironically easy since most reviews Ive stumpled upon are just "anti woke" bullshit which is pretty debunked just by watching the show. Lorca isnt a villain because he's a "white cis het guy" he's a villain because ultimately it seems like he's doing villainous things. (It really does seem we live in the mirror universe...yikes) Im betting Lorca is so protective of Michael, because whomever the emperor is(I'm betting its gonna be Mirror Georgiou) probably has at least a Mirror Kira affinity for her. I'm afraid Lorca is going to not be with us much longer which sucks. We need more complex characters in fiction, I just wish we lived in the non mirror universe, where morally complex characters get to live a redemption arc instead of a doom of damocles of their own hubris.

I feel like season one of discovery so far is an anxiety of "If we don't just pack it full of peanuts we'll get cancelled after one season, so a lot of shows are packing way too many peanuts in everyone's season arc. THIS HAPPENS AND THIS HAPPENS RIGHT AFTER AND OMG THEN THIS HAPPENED OMG SO INTENSE I HAVE TO KEEP WATCHING TO SEE... and its all gotta be tight. This Lorca arc should have been a few seasons to really get what it seems like they want. Because of the rushed pacing it just comes across like a red herring twist for twist sake and I dont think that's the case, the details the clues they've left since the first episode it speaks of good writing, but with the knife of network interference making everything rush and over pack per season. I also think discovery is a bit awkward in the time line. I feel like that should be a future ship not a past ship. As much as like the uniforms and the classic communicators badges and tricorders and phasers, but they somehow manage to feel more sleek than they should(but that's just the cost of tech advancement in our reality) Its MUCH better than the JJ Abrams lens flare Star Trek Wars Episode 1-3(Which are excellently cast, ((Karl Urban as Bones and Simon Pegg as Scotty I would watch go grocery shopping for seven seasons)), but that's all) A just unexpected gem of this series has been Rain Wilson as Harry Mudd. Jason Isaacs has long been playing some of the greatest villains of our age, and getting to see that he's so likable as a good guy and mentor(nice call back to Event Horizon) and Rain Wilson we all know plays annoying and mean spirited pretty well thanks to Dwight, thinking back how much Kirk seemed to hate Harry Mudd in TOS stories, though he's much more dark in this modern show, but the side by side comparison between wilson and Roger C Carmel is uncanny.

Voyager is really good series, that could have been one of the best if they hadnt insisted on the sitcom reset at the end of every episode minus the occasional two parter. It really suffered not being able to have more solid arcs like in Ds9 (Im loving the discovery arcs so far) The cast of Voyager might be among my favorite for just sheer amount of likable/relatable characters and any show that brings back Reg Barclay is good for me. Though I gotta say Tilly in Discovery is VERY relatable, but tbf a lot of them are. The PTSD depiction is good imo too, it matches a lot of my own symptoms...It's nice we finally get some openly queer characters instead of just being coded or having to stay in the closet. And I love Doug Jones in anything. To Boldly go with Abe Sapien. what a dream.

​

 

[Totenkindly]

Indeed, entierly too jam packed and rushed. (I wanted at least 3 seasons with this Lorca plot and I maintain that I want an extended show set in the mirror universe.) They just got to the mirror universe. I've been enjoying the heck out of Lorca; the writers have done a great job dropping clues, I have enjoyed how he "inspires" the crew to push past their limits unselfishly. If Stammits hadnt folded with "Just one more jump" I don't think Lorca would have rushed his plans.

Yeah, the major twists of the season would have been so much better if they could have been extended a few seasons -- basically really setting you up to believe one thing about the characters involved, and then waiting for a really opportune moment to spring the twist or even just playing with it... you know, like the characters find out about the twist but it seems false and they deny it, leaving you in a "are they or aren't they?" position and maybe even convincing you the twist is false, thus REALLY blowing your mind later.

There are two things about it -- Brian Fuller (showrunner) left during the first season, and so then there seems to be a lot of "course correction" that occurred in mid/late season as they try to put things back to the show I guess the network wanted... and also as you note, if the series tanked, I guess they wanted to get everything in before the end. But that sucks too. You can't have these great payoffs when networks are just running things based on dollars. They all want hit shows out of the can, but sometimes you have to do the slow build. Maybe it would help if shows actually had defined endings?

(Like, I think Dark always planned on three seasons, and each season makes sense, and the series would have sucked if they had canned it early. The last season is kind of mind-blowing in how it expands and reconfigures the two that came before.)

It kinda felt like they didn't know how to complete Fuller's vision, so they just fumbled around and tried to get rid of everything to do a more conventional Trek show.

Doug Jones is great in whatever he does. Saru is wonderfully shaped and made, and Jones brings him to life. Totally feels like a real, alien person -- yet I can strongly understand to him and relate to him.

Ive managed to stay away from spoilers, ironically easy since most reviews Ive stumpled upon are just "anti woke" bullshit which is pretty debunked just by watching the show. Lorca isnt a villain because he's a "white cis het guy" he's a villain because ultimately it seems like he's doing villainous things. (It really does seem we live in the mirror universe...yikes) Im betting Lorca is so protective of Michael, because whomever the emperor is(I'm betting its gonna be Mirror Georgiou) probably has at least a Mirror Kira affinity for her. I'm afraid Lorca is going to not be with us much longer which sucks. We need more complex characters in fiction, I just wish we lived in the non mirror universe, where morally complex characters get to live a redemption arc instead of a doom of damocles of their own hubris.

Yeah, it was sad that Lorca essentially gets written off as what he because he IS what he is. LIke, they should have regular Starfleet captains who embody his pragmatism and encouragement -- he always pushed his crew and actually was quite someone who could be followed, even if he wasn't entirely orthodox. (For what it's worth, I'm feeling like Picard S2 and S3 are at least willing to make more complex "good guys" -- maybe they are learning something?) Isaacs did such a great job with that role, I feel like he's typically been underrated in much of his work -- which is extensive. He was in this cool series that never really got off the ground called "Awake," I wish it had been better known at the time and it only lasted a season despite his great acting and supporting cast.

Discovery S2 brings in Ansel Mount, which maybe proves they aren't out to get the cis het white guy. I thought it was gonna be a dud; Mount ends up being freaking excellent, and playing a more by the book captain. I was surprised at how much I enjoyed him, and it taps into well-known Trek history in very poignant ways, I know they've been following up on it in Strange New Worlds.

Voyager is really good series, that could have been one of the best if they hadnt insisted on the sitcom reset at the end of every episode minus the occasional two parter. It really suffered not being able to have more solid arcs like in Ds9 (Im loving the discovery arcs so far) The cast of Voyager might be among my favorite for just sheer amount of likable/relatable characters and any show that brings back Reg Barclay is good for me. Though I gotta say Tilly in Discovery is VERY relatable, but tbf a lot of them are. The PTSD depiction is good imo too, it matches a lot of my own symptoms...It's nice we finally get some openly queer characters instead of just being coded or having to stay in the closet. And I love Doug Jones in anything. To Boldly go with Abe Sapien. what a dream.

Tilly takes some flack from your white fanboy audience -- she scans as a very young ESFJ or something like that, which is the antithesis of what they want in their shows. I found her both annoying at times and yet totally refreshing -- I'm really glad they included her, because I had not seen a character like her before, really, that a Trek show actually spends time on. I think she's very relatable and ends up being extremely important to the crew's successes.

And yeah, they didn't dabble in queer characters, they actually went full-in -- not just with Stamets and Culber, but also with Gray and Adira. This series has been all over the place, and I hate representation as a political stance, but I appreciate how they actually dove into these characters and made them real people. The writing gets better as it goes.

 

[The Cat]

Yeah, the major twists of the season would have been so much better if they could have been extended a few seasons -- basically really setting you up to believe one thing about the characters involved, and then waiting for a really opportune moment to spring the twist or even just playing with it... you know, like the characters find out about the twist but it seems false and they deny it, leaving you in a "are they or aren't they?" position and maybe even convincing you the twist is false, thus REALLY blowing your mind later.

There are two things about it -- Brian Fuller (showrunner) left during the first season, and so then there seems to be a lot of "course correction" that occurred in mid/late season as they try to put things back to the show I guess the network wanted... and also as you note, if the series tanked, I guess they wanted to get everything in before the end. But that sucks too. You can't have these great payoffs when networks are just running things based on dollars. They all want hit shows out of the can, but sometimes you have to do the slow build. Maybe it would help if shows actually had defined endings?

(Like, I think Dark always planned on three seasons, and each season makes sense, and the series would have sucked if they had canned it early. The last season is kind of mind-blowing in how it expands and reconfigures the two that came before.)

It kinda felt like they didn't know how to complete Fuller's vision, so they just fumbled around and tried to get rid of everything to do a more conventional Trek show.

Doug Jones is great in whatever he does. Saru is wonderfully shaped and made, and Jones brings him to life. Totally feels like a real, alien person -- yet I can strongly understand to him and relate to him.





Yeah, it was sad that Lorca essentially gets written off as what he because he IS what he is. LIke, they should have regular Starfleet captains who embody his pragmatism and encouragement -- he always pushed his crew and actually was quite someone who could be followed, even if he wasn't entirely orthodox. (For what it's worth, I'm feeling like Picard S2 and S3 are at least willing to make more complex "good guys" -- maybe they are learning something?) Isaacs did such a great job with that role, I feel like he's typically been underrated in much of his work -- which is extensive. He was in this cool series that never really got off the ground called "Awake," I wish it had been better known at the time and it only lasted a season despite his great acting and supporting cast.

Discovery S2 brings in Ansel Mount, which maybe proves they aren't out to get the cis het white guy. I thought it was gonna be a dud; Mount ends up being freaking excellent, and playing a more by the book captain. I was surprised at how much I enjoyed him, and it taps into well-known Trek history in very poignant ways, I know they've been following up on it in Strange New Worlds.


Tilly takes some flack from your white fanboy audience -- she scans as a very young ESFJ or something like that, which is the antithesis of what they want in their shows. I found her both annoying at times and yet totally refreshing -- I'm really glad they included her, because I had not seen a character like her before, really, that a Trek show actually spends time on. I think she's very relatable and ends up being extremely important to the crew's successes.

And yeah, they didn't dabble in queer characters, they actually went full-in -- not just with Stamets and Culber, but also with Gray and Adira. This series has been all over the place, and I hate representation as a political stance, but I appreciate how they actually dove into these characters and made them real people. The writing gets better as it goes.

Yeah, I've found most of the toxic "teh fahns" negative discourse about new trek has been...I don't think we're watching the same shows, tbh I dont think we were watching the same shows in classic treks, but thats a whole new conversation point lol.
Ive seen some clips of Captain Pike and oh my lord that is a sexy man, he seems so laid back and chill. I think some people have given discovery an unfair rushed knee jerk reaction, but again i blame a lot of that on this toxic network viewer cycle of interference on fast forward that has seemingly whittled down art to commodity in 8 episode production runs, so all things considered we've been pretty lucky with the new treks, I just cant help but think that this rushed pace we seem to be forced to take with every aspect of lives and also enterainment...Sweeps week killed the dinosaurs and the original twitter(Babel) sank atlantis and now history is about to repeat itself. all time travel jokes aside I feel like this is part of the dystopia 70's science fiction was trying to warn us about, Star Trek may be more important than ever because we need some to boldly go into a better future spirit these days.

 

[The Cat]

Pretty cool they had Lorca still be alive as he was dissolved(absorbed by the mycelial network, provides an interesting door to bring back a pretty compelling antagonist.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I just can’t stand the forced emotion in disco. The writers tell rather than show. It’s lazy and a bit condescending

I also hate how contrived it can be. I hated when they spent an episode rushing a bunch of last minute character development for a background character so they could kill her off for an emotional reaction in that same episode (voyager level laziness, right there). It felt cheap and inorganic. It told me the writers don’t want to take any real chances or have any real stakes—they just manufacture high stakes when it suits them, so they can pretend to be edgy and dark and Wheaton will suck their dicks on his little fluff after show.

The best part of Disco is the semi regular guests like Mudd, Pike, etc. It’s a problem when your guests are more interesting than your cardboard main cast—sure, DS9 arguably did this, but they also had a solid main cast to bounce the stellar semi regulars off of. With disco, there’s nothing to work with. Also, everyone is so snarky and mean spirited all the time. It’s tiresome. Conflict is good, but the writers lazily think everyone acting like spoiled turds and dicks equals conflict (it doesn’t). I get why it works for Lorca and Empress, because everyone in the mirror universe is a dick, but having everyone in the prime universe be that dickish is kind of a bummer. Tilly is a breath of fresh air for that reason. This is the first Trek show I’ve watched that I come away from thinking, “I would actually not want to live in this universe or be a part of this crew”

I’ve only watched half of season one of SNW, but already prefer it to the two seasons of disco I watched.

For all of the criticisms of nu trek as being too woke, I actually find it decidedly unwoke and a bit regressive in its moralizing and failure to give audiences anything to think or ponder over about ethical dilemmas—another reason why telling is inferior to showing. It’s just grimdark bullshit and it makes sense it was developed in the wake of shit like GoT’s popularity. Prodigy is meh but may come closest of any nu trek series to giving us some form of enlightened sensibilities. I want to watch Trek to be uplifted and see a better world, not to be bummed out between flashy overproduced space battles. I want to be given interesting ethical dilemmas that don’t always have a clear right or wrong answer and spend the next several hours or days pondering said dilemmas and really thinking. Disco makes the mistake of giving you a dilemma scenario and then telling you the right answer. It’s insulting and condescending

 

[The Cat]

I just can’t stand the forced emotion in disco. The writers tell rather than show. It’s lazy and a bit condescending

I also hate how contrived it can be. I hated when they spent an episode rushing a bunch of last minute character development for a background character so they could kill her off for an emotional reaction in that same episode (voyager level laziness, right there). It felt cheap and inorganic. It told me the writers don’t want to take any real chances or have any real stakes—they just manufacture high stakes when it suits them, so they can pretend to be edgy and dark and Wheaton will suck their dicks on his little fluff after show.

The best part of Disco is the semi regular guests like Mudd, Pike, etc. It’s a problem when your guests are more interesting than your cardboard main cast—sure, DS9 arguably did this, but they also had a solid main cast to bounce the stellar semi regulars off of. With disco, there’s nothing to work with. Also, everyone is so snarky and mean spirited all the time. It’s tiresome. Conflict is good, but the writers lazily think everyone acting like spoiled turds and dicks equals conflict (it doesn’t). I get why it works for Lorca and Empress, because everyone in the mirror universe is a dick, but having everyone in the prime universe be that dickish is kind of a bummer. Tilly is a breath of fresh air for that reason. This is the first Trek show I’ve watched that I come away from thinking, “I would actually not want to live in this universe or be a part of this crew”

I’ve only watched half of season one of SNW, but already prefer it to the two seasons of disco I watched.

For all of the criticisms of nu trek as being too woke, I actually find it decidedly unwoke and a bit regressive in its moralizing and failure to give audiences anything to think or ponder over about ethical dilemmas—another reason why telling is inferior to showing. It’s just grimdark bullshit and it makes sense it was developed in the wake of shit like GoT’s popularity. Prodigy is meh but may come closest of any nu trek series to giving us some form of enlightened sensibilities. I want to watch Trek to be uplifted and see a better world, not to be bummed out between flashy overproduced space battles. I want to be given interesting ethical dilemmas that don’t always have a clear right or wrong answer and spend the next several hours or days pondering said dilemmas and really thinking. Disco makes the mistake of giving you a dilemma scenario and then telling you the right answer. It’s insulting and condescending

It hasnt seemed that way to me. It seems pretty much like other trek just without pussyfooting around coding characters as something and just giving the representation. I havent noticed anyone being snarky or mean spirited, just scared, it doesnt seem like its trying to be edgy or preachy, or insisting upon itself. As far as the grimdark goes, its hard to find anything in our current grim dark setting that doesnt reflect that aspect of reality, but that's been happening to entertainment since the spring line up of 2002. But the main cast doesnt seem cardboard to me either. The flash of space battles is there, but there is very much interesting ethical quanderies; in fact ive enjoyed the realism of a big war calling those enlightened sensibilities that everyone fosters during peace time which are often the first things to go when combat comes; its been nice seeing some conflict in the systems morality because imo it makes it more impactful when they do choose to do the "heroic" thing. Discovery has been for my money one of the better Trek Season one's, if the show does the usual trek tighten up around mid season 2, i imagine it gets even better as the cast locks in on more chemistry with itself. the delima scinarios seem realistic to me because people when they choose a thing, tend to justify it as the right thing to do. Regardless if it was or not. Initially I was a little thrown off by the Klingon look, but given the Real life predjudices that I see in our real life world how dehumanizing the rhetoric can be, so I actually see the benefit of making the klingons look initially less human, Ive appreciated how they start to seem more human the longer the crew interacts with them. The practical make up effects have been very good to get back to. My biggest pleased moment about the cast is just how not high and mighty the federation is. It's a more realisitic depiction of cooperation sure humanity has evolved since our times now, but they're still human. The Federation has a sense of Honor the same as the klingons, it comes down to the individual crewperson choosing to do the honorable thing because its not an inherent biological trait of evolution, it is making a choice not a biological function. Its one of the first treks Ive seen where pretty much anyone could pick a member of the crew and see themselves instead of having to make inferences or introducing a special guest star like Barclay. My biggest griefs have been that the mirror universe would have been more satisfying to be a season 2 finale twist, give us two seasons with Lorca but I feel like that was the showrunners not knowing they were going to really get a season 2 so all payoffs happen same season, but thats more a problem with streaming series over all not just new trek.