Possibly Suicidal ENFJ Friend

[FFF]

......

She sounds like she's had some serious abuse in her childhood. It's not easy stuff to get over, but it can be done. It takes some help, though.

 

[INTJMom]

She sounds like she's had some serious abuse in her childhood. It's not easy stuff to get over, but it can be done. It takes some help, though.

I thought of that, too. Her behavior isn't always an indicator of abuse, but it's a possibility.

 

[Mempy]

If she's trying to established dominance over the physical through bodily abuse, then that's self-medicating and a self-medicating ENFJ means "reaching critical mass".

That's what I was thinking. Someone who is trying to find some control by mutilating/hurting/starving their body is behaving under a lot of strain. It seems likely that someone who is willing to self-medicate, to take sleeping pills to knock themselves out so they can forget or shut their mind off, would only have to think one horrible day, "It's over. This time, it's DONE. I can't take it anymore. Where did I put that damn bottle of sleeping pills? All right, alcohol in the fridge. Here's what I'll do..."

Also, whoever said that if she had wanted to kill herself, she would have done it already, is wrong, obviously. Life circumstances are changing constantly, and so are one's opinions. To say, "She will never make the decision to off herself" is as preposterous as saying one never changes one's mind or varies in one's mood.

Thank you for the replies. Test next class, ten minutes of studying time, so I can't reply in depth or anything.

 

[proteanmix]

Get together over coffee and cake one day and - after laughing about whatever it is you happen to be laughing about - tell her that if she ever commits suicide you'll fucking kill her. Give her a steely look, apparently oblivious to the obvious logical flaw in the statement. Her reaction should tell you quite a lot.

This would work best with me.

 

[proteanmix]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. If your friend is manifesting this level of problem you should get off the internet and go to health services at your school (if you're in college). This is above and beyond a simple type thing and I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but you're doing your friend a disservice by trying to get type related advice on a problem of this magnitude.

Hopefully this will be a start: HealthyMinds.org - Healthy minds. Healthy lives.
http://www.healthyminds.org/factsheets/LTF-CollSAA.pdf

 

[heart]

This would work best with me.

If you were serious about killing yourself and feared that anyone who knew it would try and stop you, would this still work? When you were past the point of wanting to be stopped? If you felt that there was no hope left and that you were just marking time until the moment was right or you had the guts to carry out your plans?

I am thinking that a person serious about suicide would clam up under a direct confrontation and that drawing them out more carefully in a conversation that starts off more casual and allows them to feel safe and not judged for their dark thoughts would get the best chance of actually finding out where their head is at.

A person serious about suicide is in a very dark and desperate place where it seems no one can be trusted without putting a wrench in the plan and so it seems a very delicate situation to navigate. However, I am not ENFJ so maybe ENFJ would think differently, I am not sure.

It just seems like keeping communication open is the most paramount aspect of the situation. Expressing anger or negative feelings about their wish to suicide, even in jest seems counter productive to making them feel it is safe to release and reveal some of their dark feelings. They may very much want to get more perspective on the situation and to have a sounding board but if they fear you judge them or will be angry with them or hurt if they reveal, they may not reveal their darker thoughts.

For an attention seeker who is wavering on the issue espeically when they often complain to others that they want to suicide, yes the direct, blunt thing might be more productive because they really do want someone to stop them and give them reasons to go on living.

But for the one who is serious, I just don't know. Okay, take with grain of salt, I am certainly no expert or anything.

 

[proteanmix]

If you were serious about killing yourself and feared that anyone who knew it would try and stop you, would this still work? When you were past the point of wanting to be stopped? If you felt that there was no hope left and that you were just marking time until the moment was right or you had the guts to carry out your plans?

I am thinking that a person serious about suicide would clam up under a direct confrontation and that drawing them out more carefully in a conversation that starts off more casual and allows them to feel safe and not judged for their dark thoughts would get the best chance of actually finding out where their head is at.

A person serious about suicide is in a very dark and desperate place where it seems no one can be trusted without putting a wrench in the plan and so it seems a very delicate situation to navigate. However, I am not ENFJ so maybe ENFJ would think differently, I am not sure.

It just seems like keeping communication open is the most paramount aspect of the situation.

For an attention seeker who is wavering on the issue espeically when they often complain to others that they want to suicide, yes the direct, blunt thing might be more productive because they really do want someone to stop them and give them reasons to go on living.

But for the one who is serious, I just don't know. Okay, take with grain of salt, I am certainly no expert or anything.

I'm not an expert either and frankly I've never dealt with a suicide. I've known two people make suicide attempts, but no one I know has ever followed through and I hope to God it stays that way. I responded to JJJ's post half in jest, but I do agree with his sentiment. I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but what I'm responding to within his comment is the "let's get serious--I know something is terribly wrong. I'm here to help you in whatever way I can," aka "I'll fucking kill you." Maybe that's a completely off base interpretation, but that's what I got from it. The humor/directness the comment injects into the situation and if this person is close enough to me to actually say such a thing would calm me down and I'd be more willing to open up. The coffee klatching would also ease me into the ensuing confrontation. I had a professor in college call me into his office and just give it to me straight and I broke down crying. Of course, I wasn't suicidal but it was a tough period in my life and I didn't realize I was so obvious. It really helped that someone took such a strong interest in me that they would call me out of the anonymous flock of students and try to talk to me although I'm hesitant to compare these situations. All I know is when I've been on the verge, it took someone snatching me away from the edge, not gently coaxing me. This may not work for everyone but it's worked for me.

Mempy, please do seek the advice of a mental health professional. There are tools available for you to help your friend and for your friend to recieve help. Stay with her, don't leave her. If you can't stay with her then find someone that can be reliable and stick with her. If I know anything about EFJs is that this is not the time to be floating around alone with no one. Call her regularly to show that you care, don't be distant with her. Ask her if she wants to meetup for lunch or something like that. The way she's acting suggests that she's looking for someone to take a vested interest in her and she's vainly searching and doing a lot of damage to herself in the process.

Do you think this is something you can handle?

 

[heart]

Yes, I agree that getting professional advice is probably the best thing and also keeping the lines of communication open in the meantime as you say showing an attentive interest.

Wow, if a college professor had done that to me, I would have been quietly polite and fielded his questions as best I could while protecting my inner truth from his prying eyes and ran like hell away as soon as it was possible without offending him. I would have withdrawn as deeply as I could around him from then on and found his actions invasive...of course I am speaking of when I was college aged.

I did not trust people then because of my situation in my growing up years. I had learned from my life experiences that people had ulterior movites when the extended the helping hand. This is the problem that abuse creates, it locks people away from those who might help them. That's why the professional advice is probably the best idea.

EDIT to add: I only put this in to show how using normal logic to explain how a person who has previous suffered some kind of abuse will respond just will not always work. Sometimes they will run/hide from people who try to help them.

 

[proteanmix]

I suppose I unloaded like that because at the time, a lot of things had been building up inside of me and I had no way for it to be released. What was shocking was that the professor and I had very little direct contact (about 35-40 people in the class) and he was the last person on earth I expected to say what he said to me. I was either being obvious or the professor somehow knew that I wasn't doing to well. He didn't bring it up again, but I felt that if I needed to talk he would be open to me. Knowing that I had someone available to just talk if I needed to do so was very comforting and it made somethings more tolerable.

 

[Wandering]

Here are my totally unprofessional comments, as someone who went through a deep and long depression herself, and who is married to a bipolar ENFJ.

Quite frankly, it's not so much the whole list of behaviours that bothers me. I see them as symptoms of the real problem: cure the problems, and the symptoms will disappear on their own, or most of them anyway.

Several things I found terribly relevant, though, were right at the end:

This is just to give you more background. She's eighteen and a freshman in college, and she was raised Catholic.

How much does she believe in her religion? How much do her parents believe in it? What kind of involvement does she have with the church? Those could potentially be of paramount importance, because ENFJs are DomFe: they are obsessed with what is expected of them. And if they feel like they are not living up to the expectations put on them, this can break them. So if she's feeling like she's some kind of irredeemable sinner, either in her own eyes and/or in the eyes of her family/religious community, this could definitely send her spiralling into depression.

She's working long hours as a waitress. And by long I mean, /long/. We're talking 40 hours a week as well as being a full-time student.

Why? Why does she do that? Did she give you a reason?

In particular: do you hear her mentioning lots of "should"s? She should be like this, she should do that? Shoulds are not usually big friends of NFJs: we tend to use them to beat ourselves down. So too many shoulds would definitely lead to depression or be a sign of an existing depression.

One particular side-effect of this is that you, as an INFP, must refrain from telling her how she "should" see herself. Don't go telling her that she should find peace inside herself or anything like that! That's INFP stuff, definitely NOT ENFJ! Remember: ENFJs and INFPs are each other's attitude-shadow. Fi-values center you, give you strength, but they tend to seriously upset an ENFJ.

Similarly, you as an INFP find comfort in Ne. But Ne is a killer for an ENFJ in the dumps. Which means that when she talks to you, you need to refrain from offering whole strings of alternate possibilities to view or do things. That would only make her more depressed.

In short:

1- Try and figure out what personal and social expectations she's trying to live her life by. That's the most important step, both for you to help her, and for her to help herself.

2- Encourage her to talk, but don't say anything. She needs to express her Aux Ni, as this is where her inner comfort will come from. But Ni is not a function that can be easily expressed, so she will need some time to even figure out what she is thinking, let alone actually express it.

3- Encourage her to indulge in positive Se activities. Se is her Tertiary, it can provide her with a lot of relief, if used correctly, ie if used in a CHILD-like way. No expectations, no competition, just pure fun and play, preferably with many other people. Jam sessions for a musician, for example.

And good luck. Depression stinks

 

[heart]

I suppose I unloaded like that because at the time, a lot of things had been building up inside of me and I had no way for it to be released. What was shocking was that the professor and I had very little direct contact (about 35-40 people in the class) and he was the last person on earth I expected to say what he said to me. I was either being obvious or the professor somehow knew that I wasn't doing to well. He didn't bring it up again, but I felt that if I needed to talk he would be open to me. Knowing that I had someone available to just talk if I needed to do so was very comforting and it made somethings more tolerable.

I am glad you had that experience and that it was beneficial to you.

 

[MetalWounds]

If you were serious about killing yourself and feared that anyone who knew it would try and stop you, would this still work? When you were past the point of wanting to be stopped? If you felt that there was no hope left and that you were just marking time until the moment was right or you had the guts to carry out your plans?

A person serious about suicide is in a very dark and desperate place where it seems no one can be trusted without putting a wrench in the plan and so it seems a very delicate situation to navigate. However, I am not ENFJ so maybe ENFJ would think differently, I am not sure.

I agree, someone with this attitude toward suicide is the most dangerous. Very few people will ever see the symptoms manifest themselves because the individual is intentionally hiding them. The bigger issue here would be the fact that someone with this mentality is very more than likely planning to take the most lethal means possible toward attaining their ultimate goal.
It doesn't sound like this is the point in which your friend is at, so it's more of a plea for you to help her. If she's truly an E then she can gain a lot of faith in life from your true support and concern.

 

[INTJMom]

Here are my totally unprofessional comments, as someone who went through a deep and long depression herself, and who is married to a bipolar ENFJ.

Quite frankly, it's not so much the whole list of behaviours that bothers me. I see them as symptoms of the real problem: cure the problems, and the symptoms will disappear on their own, or most of them anyway....

Exactly.

 

[Mempy]

I agree with you, Wandering, that there are probably underlying problems causing her destructive behavior. She told a friend of ours a few months ago that she'd been raped by her first boyfriend in her freshman year of high school. That may be a big part of the problem.

Someone mentioned to me through pm that her Fe may be getting out of control; in other words, she's trying to please everyone. I see this is possible, but I'm not sure how I can help her see that pleasing everyone isn't imperative without perhaps appealing to my Fi and Ne for the right things to say. If you could elaborate on why Fi and Ne are so toxic to unhappy ENFJs, Wandering, I would appreciate it.

Santtu, what you said about changing your life really seemed important to me. I can't quote it, because for some reason I can't figure out how to copy and paste on this junk computer, but you said that part of what made something exhilarating for you was the unconscious hope that the experience would change your life for the better. I think this is true. It ties into depression because to the depressed person, every day will bring more of the same bleakness. There is no hope or exhilaration, only a subsistence of the torture they had today, and yesterday, and the day before that. The fewer reasons for living a person has (e.g., responsibility to family, children to rear, moral objections to suicide) the closer that person will come to throwing it all away.

Depression and pessimism also seem to bring with them a lot of self-fulfilling prophecies. Believing that something will happen may influence someone's actions, either through fear or logical confusion, enough so that their actions ultimately bring about their false prophecy. So on top of already feeling like crap, the proof that you are incapable, helpless and worthless tends to stack up over time, creating a mountain of negative experiences that you must then get over, as if the depressed feelings themselves weren't enough without proof.

For my ENFJ friend, I want to try to show more interest and support for her. We have little contact as of now. We haven't spoken since last weekend, and before that we hadn't spoken for close to five or six weeks. I want to be more available to her, keep in contact with her more.

The reason for this thread, I want to make clear, is that it just recently occurred to me how susceptible she may be to suicide. I hadn't realized it until the night before last, when I heard about Heath Ledger dying from overdosage, and it made me realize how tenuous life is. I also realized, given that she'd been going through an unhappy time, that I truly had no clue how near or far from suicide she was. I realize now that all that was probably necessary for me to do was to get off my bum and see how she was doing, first of all. Then the reasonable thing to do would be to contact professionals if she did seem to be close to suicide. So, in a way, this thread was not what I intended it to be. On the other hand, it has proven more insightful than I first thought, especially into depression and perhaps the underlying reasons for her depression in particular.

As for you, Prote. I don't appreciate that kind of uninformed, biased opinion. But thank you for the redirection to a drug addictions page. You'll be glad to know that I take a drugs and behaviors class and that I knew most of that already.

I skimmed your religious questions, Wandering, but first I'm going to respond to something else. She told me she worked long hours because she had no choice. She cited monetary reasons, and they didn't seem reason enough for me. "Can't you get enough money from your parents and family to feed and clothe yourself?" "No," was her response. I felt terrible for how she perceived her situation, but I couldn't say for sure if her perceptions were wrong. I told her that I thought she could get by on taking out loans for most of her needs, but that was just a fly-by suggestion. Working seems absolutely imperative to her, judging by how much she still works.

Since you mention that she probably beats herself down, I see clear evidence of this, and I also think this is one of her biggest enemies. She definitely uses a lot of "shoulds," and it's obvious she's not kind or gentle with herself. "I should be thin, I should be responsible, I should support myself money-wise," are just a few of the things she probably says. I think "shoulds" are everyone's enemy, when we feel we're worthless without meeting them.

So now, back your questions about religion. I don't think she has time for religious activities, just to be frank. I just don't think she's involved at all; I'd be surprised if she could whittle some time out of her schedule for religious activities. It also probably doesn't help that she doesn't see her immediate family very often, as they recently moved about an hour and a half away.

Once again, thank you for all your input and responses, everyone!

 

[INTJMom]

I agree with you, Wandering, that there are probably underlying problems causing her destructive behavior. She told a friend of ours a few months ago that she'd been raped by her first boyfriend in her freshman year of high school. That may be a big part of the problem.

...

This has everything to do with her problem. It's time for her to face the pain and deal with it.

 

[INTJMom]

My ENFJ is really pain-avoidant, and can't stand the sight of his own blood. Is your friend like that, too?