Patrick Stewart will reprise his role as Jean-Luc Picard

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Killing in Voyager was literally last resort self-defence for all of them, always as far as I remember. There might have been moments of controversial decisions, but nothing that blatantly in disregard for higher human morality.

In fact, they made a very huge deal about having to do it.

Even had an episode where another Starship was stuck in the Delta Quadrant who took a different approach than voyager (no morals, just get home at any cost approach which required killing aliens for fuel) and that entire crew was chased, captured and put in the brig by Janeway (I don't remember the ending, but I think those who didn't want to join Voyager were left on a planet to settle somewhere).

Seven *never* even came close to anything resembling killing unless having to in combat (which I recall for her was rare). In fact, she was even often up in Janeway's face lecturing her about her even slightly deviating from Janeway's own morality and Starfleet's moral ethos as Seven understood it. She was pretty stubborn about striving to be humanity's best.

That's what I thought. There's a difference to me between putting in another element of complexity to a character without shitting over the character, and just making making people assholes because that's "adult."

IMO, Luke in TLJ is the former, and Seven in Picard is the latter. They are on different sides of an invisible line for me. Maybe for others they're both on the same side of the line (whichever side that might be).

 

[Phoenix]

Just recalled another episode of Voyager "Tuvix" where a transporter malfunction created a hybrid Tuvok and Neelix and the entire episode was basically spent first making us fall in love with the character - and then Janeway having to make an agonizingly difficult decision to reverse the process (in effect killing Tuvix) in order to get Neelix and Tuvok back. It was a gem of an episode and highly recommended viewing for people who are nostalgic for how good Trek could be when it explored actually complex philosophical dilemmas and presented either decisions we could all live with, or make controversial ones that provoke thought and debate. Polarization back then meant "did you agree with the decisions the characters had to make or not?" It didn't mean "OMG They completely fucked up this character because of how badly they wrote them vs you're just a h8er troll" ...

Another beloved character from Voyager is Suder. They literally had a psychopath on the crew who was imprisoned for murder, and even he was given rehabilitative confinement with a full redemption arc eventually.

Some of the best of humanity's progressive values.

That's what I thought. There's a difference to me between putting in another element of complexity to a character without shitting over the character, and just making making people assholes because that's "adult."

IMO, Luke in TLJ is the former, and Seven in Picard is the latter. They are on different sides of an invisible line for me. Maybe for others they're both on the same side of the line (whichever side that might be).

I really wanna just believe that it's writers who are literally ignorant (willfully or otherwise) of the characters they're writing and just literally engaging in erasure through such ignorance ... But who knows at this point.

I heard about the eye incident and knowing and having loved Seven for decades, my reaction was the "Oh shit, here they go SUBVERTING EXPECTATIONS with her like they did with Luke".

Like FU. You got creative license, be creative with new characters.

 

[The Cat]

Is it that y'all's sense of nostalgia is being upset? is it a si thing?

 

[Phoenix]

Is it that y'all's sense of nostalgia is being upset? is it a si thing?

Well, yah. The fact that they use Star Trek is already an appeal to nostalgia. So you basically promise a certain thing when you promote something as a sequel --- a continuation of the story with beloved characters.

If they didn't make any such latent promises, there would be no controversy.

The same people can love two different things as long as the promise of sameness isn't there.

I liked 2009 Star Trek (Kelvin Timeline). In fact, I've seen it nearly a dozen times because for me it was a divergent timeline which allowed the acceptance of the character alterations. Star Trek within itself has consistently taken the same approach of writing different universes to critical acclaim. "Yesterday's Enterprise" in TNG is an excellent example of such plot devices for example. Alter the timeline to tell your new story and I wouldn't care. (In fact, they used Yesterday's Enterprise to bring back a dead character from a different universe back into the Prime Universe and they did that very nicely as well imho)

Try to convince me that it's still in the Prime universe and it sets the standard for the writers to uphold the consistency of the universe they're promising.

 

[The Cat]

Well, yah. The fact that they use Star Trek is already an appeal to nostalgia. So you basically promise a certain thing when you promote something as a sequel --- a continuation of the story with beloved characters.

If they didn't make any such latent promises, there would be no controversy.

The same people can love two different things as long as the promise of sameness isn't there.

I liked 2009 Star Trek (Kelvin Timeline). In fact, I've seen it nearly a dozen times because for me it was a divergent timeline which allowed the acceptance of the character alterations. Star Trek within itself has consistently taken the same approach of writing different universes to critical acclaim. "Yesterday's Enterprise" in TNG is an excellent example of such plot devices for example. Alter the timeline to tell your new story and I wouldn't care.

Try to convince me that it's still in the Prime universe and it sets the standard for the writers to uphold the consistency of the universe they're promising.

Tbh movies have been pretty consistently getting darker in premise; this seems like the natural continuation of the timeline while also sort of connecting to the Kelvin time line. This seems like symmetry to me. but nostalgia never works pleasantly for me so I tend to not have expectations when it come to these kinds of shows.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

To be fair though, TNG stepped on the toes of established lore because in STVI Gorkon’s daughter becomes chancellor. Not sure if the TNG episode referenced here was produced before or after that film

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I actually think older Trek was more progressive and “left wing” than anything made after voyager. Current Trek is not progressive, it’s more a reflection of status quo neoliberalism