Opinionated PB&J's

[FemMecha]

The information I've gleaned about MBTI suggests that J's tend to be more opinionated than P's. What about someone who is borderline, being a measured bit of both? (hence the B in the title)

I'm also wondering how being organized relates to being opinionated. When thoughts are organized does this tend to result in more or less certitude? I get confused about this, being a bit borderline myself on the P-J thing. I come from a family of P's (I think), who tend to be somewhat disorganized when relating to the concrete world, and rather opinionated in thought. I'm the opposite. I enjoy organizing, but that is precisely why it is difficult to reach definitive conclusions. It is because i enjoy organizing that I leave things open-ended and ready for new things and information to find a place. I dismiss nothing, but find a place for it. This is one aspect of MBTI that really baffles me. What do you know about it?

 

[Totenkindly]

According to theory, P's and J's both organize.

It's just that J's go for closure externally (with their Je). But then, ironically, it means that internally they're very open.

P's easily extrovert a perceiving function (Pe)... but inside they can be very "judgmental."

I know I have mentioned it elsewhere, that externally I am very flexy and seem to not need much closure or be organized in some physical ways... but inside, there is a constant judgment being made on everything that happens around me. The thing is that because of the Pe, those little judgments never cease -- I'm always willing to adjust them if enough evidence shows up. So you will see slow drifts in my overall beliefs/ideas as I accumulate more data.

I think Je's can get advice for being closed because they can shut off their external data flow into the core, especially IJ's. I think because EJ's operate externally primarily, then anything that happens externally still impacts them, and they're more apt to change. The IJ's, however, tend to perceive and reference their internal world (Ni or Si) and shutter the blinds against external data they've already moved past unless they make a conscious decision to open the shutters. (Compare ESFJ to ISFJ -- ISFJ's are more apt to have bunker-mentalities and get stuck in the past, ESFJs are more apt to change with the social changes around them.)

So it's more "where" the organization and closure is being implemented, rather than "whether" it is.

As far as certitude, J types usually voice more certitude even if inwardly they are open. P's don't like to voice certitude as much (so that their options remain open) while even if inside they actually do have a good idea of what they want/believe... they just don't "know for sure" or haven't yet committed to it until something pushes on them and they have to express it.

I don't think I answered the question.

 

[Jae Rae]

I agree with this analysis - my INTP seems very easy-going and unjudging, yet he has very definite opinions about what's right and wrong. He can explain almost anyone's motivation, yet deep inside, seems to view it as one or the other.

Whereas I have an initial reaction to a person's behavior, sometimes think it's completely off, but inside I keep wondering about it. Is there a good reason why he acted that way? Maybe this, maybe that. Drives me a little crazy.

My P is also a 9, so he really hates to express a negative opinion or judgment. My ENTP best buddy also seems easy-going and open, but he's expressed many strong opinions when push came to shove.

 

[FemMecha]

...As far as certitude, J types usually voice more certitude even if inwardly they are open. P's don't like to voice certitude as much (so that their options remain open) while even if inside they actually do have a good idea of what they want/believe... they just don't "know for sure" or haven't yet committed to it until something pushes on them and they have to express it.

I don't think I answered the question.

What you say makes sense in theory, but in practice it is difficult to view a clear dividing line. Perhaps it is worth asking hardcore J's and P's just how much certitude they have and to what degree they express it? This is one area in which my observations have failed to perceive a clear dividing line. In the thread about INJ certitude, the replies were rather consistent and in agreement that this is the case. Either having or lacking certitude of thought seems to me to be a fundamental component of different types of cognitive processing. It would seem to have a defining quality. That is why the actual practice of P's and J's revealing no such clear division seems strange to me. Of course my observations being flawed is the most likely culprit. I guess it comes down to my inability to analyze my own type based on my enjoyment of organization and my inability to naturally think in terms of conclusions.

 

[Domino]

I think Ps can be just as opinionated as Js - they simply want to the right to change their minds.

 

[Haphazard]

I can attest to what Jenny said.

I hate responding to hypothetical questions because there are too many variables -- what's there, what's not there, how I'm feeling that day -- that would alter my answer, so if it's something that the person is going to actually use to get to know me, well, I might say one thing, but when push comes to shove I may do something completely different.

However, if I see a situation in real life, stuff just kind of falls into place. This and that and that should happen, so I'll go do this and that and that. It's easy to start working.

Then again, I appear very unopen to any new ideas, but that's usually because I shoot down a lot of ideas that aren't my own if I don't think they're very good (typical INTJ listen to the whole idea and then think, 'that's the dumbest idea I've ever heard!'). I tend to be more open to my own ideas than other people's. Call it arrogant, but I know I can always fix my own ideas and if I fail, it's my fault. If I take their idea and I still fail, then I guess it's still my fault for not noticing that the idea was bad. New plans and ideas and information have a tendency to pop out of nowhere, and denying or ignoring all of them would just be stupid. They need to be looked at and then... probably dismissed because they're not as good as what's already there. The stuff that makes it through has to be very special.

I guess in theory I'm always open, but in appearance I'm not open at all. I have a bad habit of thinking about things that have long since been taken off the table.

Toonia, what kind of organization do you like?

 

[cascadeco]

I don't quite know how to answer this!!

First of all, as to P/J and opinionatedness -- I will say I've seen some incredibly opinionated P's. Actually, some of the most opinionated, outspoken people I have known have been P's, and it amuses/shocks me some of the strong convictions that come out of their mouths -- and their seeming certainty in their position. But, I have also met some very opinionated J's. Makes me wonder whether it's something outside of P/J that delineates how convicted someone is when it comes to their perspectives.

As to whether I'm opinionated or not -- I don't think I'm the one to really answer that! I will say though that I rarely speak my true opinions/beliefs on what I consider the larger issues. Part of that is that I don't think there's a 'point' in doing so, per se, and the other part is that for quite a few larger issues, I simply DON'T have a strong opinion on the matter, because I can see so many views of it that I can't possibly pick just one. I also think for many things, there simply is NOT one 'right' answer or viewpoint. And that's where I am amused and rather fascinated at those people who ARE incredibly solid in their views, and speak them -- I might see them as being stuck in one micro-perspective, without seeing all of the other sides.

But with what I consider little things - details, schedules, work stuff, whatever - I can express a thought or try to make a decision, not so much because I particularly care about whether we go to restaurant X or restaurant Y (although sometimes I might ;-), but rather because I just want to get things moving and it annoys me when everyone is noncommital. So the little things are no big deal - why waste time talking about all of it? My patience might run thin. hehe.

I'm pretty organized externally.