Nuanced, respectful disagreement

[ygolo]

I'm going to go out of my way to find discussions where the people are thoughtful, largely agree, but have honest disagreement.

 

[ceecee]

My personal policy is - human rights and civil rights are not negotiable or debatable. If one has regressed as a human to a place where those things are up for debate/negotiation, the conversation is over. A debate where we mostly agree but differ on maybe policy specifics or implementation/timing are just fine.

My daughter sent me this as I don't really watch Minority Report anymore and it's a good conversation. You can see how and why the caller thinks what he thinks but is looking to get more info (in addition to using clips for his channel, nice of Sam to give permission quickly) and that's the kind of person you want to talk to.

 

[The Cat]

My personal policy is - human rights and civil rights are not negotiable or debatable. If one has regressed as a human to a place where those things are up for debate/negotiation, the conversation is over. A debate where we mostly agree but differ on maybe policy specifics or implementation/timing are just fine.

My daughter sent me this as I don't really watch Minority Report anymore and it's a good conversation. You can see how and why the caller thinks what he thinks but is looking to get more info (in addition to using clips for his channel, nice of Sam to give permission quickly) and that's the kind of person you want to talk to.

I like when Bob calls into Hugo's Show.

​

 

[ygolo]

 

[ygolo]

 

[ygolo]

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I tend to think it's possible to change people's minds. This may be foolish, but it informs the way I try to approach things. I believe many people are effectively brainwashed and don't even know why they believe what they believe.

I also feel guilty/ashamed regarding my previous aggressive approach.

 

[ygolo]

I tend to think it's possible to change people's minds. This may be foolish, but it informs the way I try to approach things. I believe many people are effectively brainwashed and don't even know why they believe what they believe.

I also feel guilty/ashamed regarding my previous aggressive approach.

It's easiest to change people's minds when our own minds are open to change.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I find that the best way to change people's minds is to ask them questions that maybe they haven't asked themselves about their own views. It doesn't always work (at least right away), but it tends to be more effective than just telling them they're wrong. It often plants a seed.

 

[Lark]

I find that the best way to change people's minds is to ask them questions that maybe they haven't asked themselves about their own views. It doesn't always work (at least right away), but it tends to be more effective than just telling them they're wrong. It often plants a seed.

I agree with this, its a bind a lot of the time though, at least for me, when I have to do it.

It feels like you're entering a discussion and people havent done the basics in reaching their conclusions, then are defensive and refuse to, and finally you're just succeeding in further entrenching them in these fixed beliefs because you've become the voice of doubt they've worked really, really hard to silence or keep silent.

A lot of the time I wind up feeling its a case of "OK, if that works for you, grand, it wouldnt be satisfactory for me but you do you", and then just observe, it can be real telling what happens from there, the echo chamber slowly emerges, the policing of acceptable opinion kicks in, the group consolidates a bit around that and then eventually realises how stultifying, exclusionary and stunting their circling the wagons has become for their online community. Takes a long time but it happens. Havent seen any group that's conformed to that pattern self-correct either.

It doesnt auger well for the offline, public square if that is the best that can be achieved or expected.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I agree with this, its a bind a lot of the time though, at least for me, when I have to do it.

It feels like you're entering a discussion and people havent done the basics in reaching their conclusions, then are defensive and refuse to, and finally you're just succeeding in further entrenching them in these fixed beliefs because you've become the voice of doubt they've worked really, really hard to silence or keep silent.

A lot of the time I wind up feeling its a case of "OK, if that works for you, grand, it wouldnt be satisfactory for me but you do you", and then just observe, it can be real telling what happens from there, the echo chamber slowly emerges, the policing of acceptable opinion kicks in, the group consolidates a bit around that and then eventually realises how stultifying, exclusionary and stunting their circling the wagons has become for their online community. Takes a long time but it happens. Havent seen any group that's conformed to that pattern self-correct either.

It doesnt auger well for the offline, public square if that is the best that can be achieved or expected.

It’s pretty bleak. The MAGA crowd is deeply entrenched in some cult-like thought but I have seen a few pulled out of that and brought to see reason. I have an uncle that voted for Trump in 2016. He’s basically become a demsoc and renounced MAGA completely; seeing literal Nazis support Trump and seeing how Trump handled COVID were the two main factors in him leaving that cult. Now he is practically a Bernie bro and supports policies like universal healthcare and UBI, so I think there’s hope for others to be pulled out of the cult.

But yeah, it’s hard and asking questions is not a guarantee, and it can be a slow process to change minds.

 

[Lark]

It’s pretty bleak. The MAGA crowd is deeply entrenched in some cult-like thought but I have seen a few pulled out of that and brought to see reason. I have an uncle that voted for Trump in 2016. He’s basically become a demsoc and renounced MAGA completely; seeing literal Nazis support Trump and seeing how Trump handled COVID were the two main factors in him leaving that cult. Now he is practically a Bernie bro and supports policies like universal healthcare and UBI, so I think there’s hope for others to be pulled out of the cult.

But yeah, it’s hard and asking questions is not a guarantee, and it can be a slow process to change minds.

I actually dont think those type of road to damascus switch ups to totally different political beliefs are necessarily a good sign.

Like, I think it should be possible to hold conservative beliefs without embracing the craziness and classic cult of personality that the MAGA movement is, the entire thing was engineered by Russia as a monkey wrenching operation, with the fringe and fanatic elements being onside for it.

MAGA in the present is so much like the Weather Men and a myriad of other similar movements were in the sixties when the Russias were sponsoring left wing groups and still felt like socialism could be their big idea to dupe a following domestically and internationally.

The left, whether the media, the average conservative punter or pundit, believes it or not, has dispatched most of its radicalism, what has filled the void is really not anything worth writing home about but the right wing hasnt dealt with its radicalism, its just gotten increasingly more militant and more radical, undermining a lot of basic, essential and fundamental infrastructure with ideological pushes.

I think when a proper left and a proper right re-emerge with some kind of consensus which allows initiatives to be fully implemented without sabotage turn about. I dont agree with everything Russell Kirk wrote but he was right when he said if anyone had the interests of their country at heart they would need to consider the reform of both liberalism and conservatism and recognise that both had a role to indispensible role to play.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

It’s pretty bleak. The MAGA crowd is deeply entrenched in some cult-like thought but I have seen a few pulled out of that and brought to see reason. I have an uncle that voted for Trump in 2016. He’s basically become a demsoc and renounced MAGA completely; seeing literal Nazis support Trump and seeing how Trump handled COVID were the two main factors in him leaving that cult. Now he is practically a Bernie bro and supports policies like universal healthcare and UBI, so I think there’s hope for others to be pulled out of the cult.

I knew it was possible!

 

[ygolo]