[NT] NTJs and innocence

[Virtual ghost]

Thread should have theoretical and practical purpose.

So I here is why I am opening this thread.

I am quite expressed Te user. In a ways it is strange that someone who is isolated rely so much on Te. I know that the post is not small but I had to make a point.


I can scare people around me when I drop my mask on a moment and show my Te. Since people are simply not expecting it. In my environment strong introversion is usually placed in the same box as Fi and sometimes Ti.
But Te does not fit in this movie. With Ni it is even worse but that one you can at least hide.
In my environment there is a clear deficit of N and J so people with Ni are rare.
Also I have well developed Ti and Ne for an INTJ (If tests are showing right picture. I think they are). But that is another story.


So here is the thing. My Te scares people or it can make them uncomfortable. You can even be quite polite but some people will have problems with a lot of Te being thrown around.
The most likely to act this way are FPs. Since they feel that their values are violated and that I want to control them and stuff like that. TPs just think that you are jerk and FJs think you are rude.

Of course I don't provoke this attitude always. Actually I provoke them rarely, which is because I am silent most of the time. But in the future that will not be the case.


So here is the question for NTJs: Did you notice that you are clearly less “innocent” then people around you?
People around me almost always talk about everyday things: like shopping and items they have bought, sports, how their sister is waiting for a baby, cars, food or politics on a very basic level.

With people who have more education you can discuss: things like art, sociology, or science in the terms of technology and facts.

Some of those topics are really interesting but my real interests go beyond that.
The topics that will surely trigger my interests are: Geopolitics and arrangement of nuclear weapons among countries as well as amount of conventional weapons. This includes ww3 scenarios as well. Interaction of Science and politics (I think that this is greatly underestimated field), discussion about ethics and religion from practical perspective.
Since, I am not too interested in discussion if it is just for the sake of discussion.

In my free time I am creating models of what could happen for 21.century and I try to predict what will happen.
Also I have quite strong interests in the matters of space, time, far future and theory of everything.



In the mean time I don’t have anything really fluffy in me. I never had romantic feelings towards someone, I am not a fan of art and empathy/sympathy are not my strengths.

The most social talk you can get from me in the most cases is discussion about strategy games. What can include conversations about killing innocent people and destruction of infrastructure in many cases.


Someone could now ask: Why would someone like me want to study something like rocks?
What clearly sounds as something quite fluffy and enthusiastic profession.
The truth is that rocks contain oil, natural gas and coal. Also rocks are the source of all metals we use in life. The soil quality greatly effects food quality and it also contains a large part of fresh water supply on a global scale. What means that entire society and economy stands on this knowledge. Plus the entire story about gem stones, blood diamonds and oppression of native population. Also the rocks can be used as evidence that religion has holes in it.
So, to study rocks today is anything but innocent game that just fuels imagination.

People learn about this but it looks to me that they don’t really understand the real consequences of facts they learn.


This looks like a rant of some sort but I am just pointing at the facts. Since I think that I have a clear deficit of innocence. In a way I am childish but I am not actually. I have never found a person like me in real life and I don’t get along with many theoretical people because my approach is too J and too negative in many cases. Over the years I have managed to create approach that allows me to fit in better but in a way I am never myself around others.
.


So I am wondering if other NTJs on this board are experiencing something similar in their life. Also I would not be surprised that some INTPs can relate to some parts as well.
I think I am not a bad person it just happened that I have dark interests. All of this is probably one of the main reasons why people think that NTJs are evil, even if they say it as a joke.


Also I am wondering how others function in so warm, fluffy and charming way. Since this clearly is not my natural approach.
How do you develop something like that?
I could really use some.

 

[Xenofile]

I'll admit that although I'm not as driven as you to research constantly (my J is very weak), I do at times go into a flurry of productiveness when I do nothing but research for days at a time.

You mentioned a fascination with the connection between science and politics. I've found myself fascinated by the trio of politics, military, and science. This interest has led me to do a great deal of reading and studying about the nazis, as they were some of the finest integrators of the three.

Of course, when you give undo attention to the nazis on a regular basis you get weird looks and comments from your friends. As a result I mostly keep my ideas to myself, but every once-in-a-while they slip out and make people wonder.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I'll admit that although I'm not as driven as you to research constantly (my J is very weak), I do at times go into a flurry of productiveness when I do nothing but research for days at a time.

You mentioned a fascination with the connection between science and politics. I've found myself fascinated by the trio of politics, military, and science. This interest has led me to do a great deal of reading and studying about the nazis, as they were some of the finest integrators of the three.

Of course, when you give undo attention to the nazis on a regular basis you get weird looks and comments from your friends. As a result I mostly keep my ideas to myself, but every once-in-a-while they slip out and make people wonder.

I include military in politics.


Also I want to thank a certain member for the Illuminati comment. You are not the first that has drawn this line.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I am curious. Why people see strong displays of Te as anger?

 

[matmos]

I am curious. Why people see strong displays of Te as anger?

Seconded. Anger is personal; Te is by-and-large not. The confusion causes some characters to step back as if a fight were about to break out. Not so.

 

[maliafee]

Other people (without strong Te) cannot possibly speak as logically or hold up their own in that way against someone with strong Te. Because of this they feel intimidated as their own weakness is underlined. The person with the strong Te becomes powerful in their logical mastery and when one person's power increases it can feel threatening to other people in the vicinity. Those people might respond defensively, misconstruing Te as an attempt to attack or gain power over them. That help?

 

[Virtual ghost]

Other people (without strong Te) cannot possibly speak as logically or hold up their own in that way against someone with strong Te. Because of this they feel intimidated as their own weakness is underlined. The person with the strong Te becomes powerful in their logical mastery and when one person's power increases it can feel threatening to other people in the vicinity. Those people might respond defensively, misconstruing Te as an attempt to attack or gain power over them. That help?

I am familiar with what you are saying. But I don't understand why this casuses so much fear and uncomfort in other people.

 

[ajblaise]

For some reason NTJ arrogance doesn't bother me as much as NTP arrogance from my own kin.

edit - oops, I read 'innocence' as 'arrogance', I wonder what that says.

 

[maliafee]

I am familiar with what you are saying. But I don't understand why this casuses so much fear and uncomfort in other people.

Because people don't like it when they feel weaker and at a disadvantage.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Because people don't like it when they feel weaker and at a disadvantage.

I am wondering if people over enought time accept the idea that they lose debetes and arguments against certain people.


All opinions are welcome.

 

[maliafee]

I am wondering if people over enought time accept the idea that they lose debetes and arguments against certain people.


All opinions are welcome.

I have, and now have a great respect/admiration for INTJs. When I see Lawrence O'Donnell massacre some hothead with fantastic logic, I want to cheer!

 

[ptgatsby]

I am curious. Why people see strong displays of Te as anger?

In my experience, it's because of the tendencies of Te to lose perspective, leading to pyrrhic victories. Just by association, it becomes an emotional issue.

In the early phases of dealing with my wife's "Te" (which manifests vastly different than yours - I'd hesitate to denote your tendencies as just Te), I had to break the habit of letting her simply pushing till she got what she wanted. It is "angry", in a sense, as it is hostile. A contest of wills, where Te gets upset the world isn't just following along. After telling her that it was inappropriate and immature way of being in a relationship, she stopped. (Likewise, I had to be more assertive in what I wanted... such is growth.)

In business, I see this Te closed mindedness a lot. Normally by independents, as they tend to be... uhh... antisocial and don't cooperate well with others. When it is severe, the only way I know to deal with it is to cut off their alternatives. The best I can do is offer a good alternative to them but that's rarely effective unless I've already dealt with the original plan. More balanced Te users will be willing to negotiate (I'm looking at ENTJs here especially), so long as what they identify as the end goal is met. But even in those cases, they have to have been taught not to be confrontational as a MO... a lot of work seminars seem to revolve around this theme. It's hard to convince them that everyone is trying to work towards a goal. (see: your thread on "just winning and people getting upset")

After a lot of experience with different Te's, I would agree with "angry" for a great many of them. I suspect it is because at the uncontrolled core, it is 'anger'... anger at anything that stands against the Te's world view. Maybe frustration is a better word, I dunno.

 

[Virtual ghost]

In my experience, it's because of the tendencies of Te to lose perspective, leading to pyrrhic victories. Just by association, it becomes an emotional issue.

In the early phases of dealing with my wife's "Te" (which manifests vastly different than yours - I'd hesitate to denote your tendencies as just Te), I had to break the habit of letting her simply pushing till she got what she wanted. It is "angry", in a sense, as it is hostile. A contest of wills, where Te gets upset the world isn't just following along. After telling her that it was inappropriate and immature way of being in a relationship, she stopped. (Likewise, I had to be more assertive in what I wanted... such is growth.)

In business, I see this Te closed mindedness a lot. Normally by independents, as they tend to be... uhh... antisocial and don't cooperate well with others. When it is severe, the only way I know to deal with it is to cut off their alternatives. The best I can do is offer a good alternative to them but that's rarely effective unless I've already dealt with the original plan. More balanced Te users will be willing to negotiate (I'm looking at ENTJs here especially), so long as what they identify as the end goal is met. But even in those cases, they have to have been taught not to be confrontational as a MO... a lot of work seminars seem to revolve around this theme. It's hard to convince them that everyone is trying to work towards a goal. (see: your thread on "just winning and people getting upset")

After a lot of experience with different Te's, I would agree with "angry" for a great many of them. I suspect it is because at the uncontrolled core, it is 'anger'... anger at anything that stands against the Te's world view. Maybe frustration is a better word, I dunno.

I can see your point. You are right about that game of risk, that was clear overuse of Te. But in my defence I did that only once and I did it because they were sure that they will win.

The thing is that I am unusual Te user (at leat I think so ). Which is because I am very introverted and calm. So instead I come as arrogant prick I come more as an elitist. What in a way is true.

This is why I have a problem with the "anger" part. Since in my case it has almost nothing to do with anger.

 

[ptgatsby]

This is why I have a problem with the "anger" part. Since in my case it has almost nothing to do with anger.

I hear you. I have something similar to this as well... although I have to "let" myself feel in order to let "me" out.

It's strange for friends, since I'm more myself around them. But it's strongly at odds of a very strong non-emotional framework that is my identity/who I am. I think that it is kind of the opposite from you - I switch in and out of being 'emotional' (I mean as simple as "being friendly") like a lightswitch.

This gets me labeled as being angry, even though anger is the worst description for it.

(Strictly speaking, mine is more a defensive mechanism that has generalized... but )

 

[yenom]

In my free time I am creating models of what could happen for 21.century and I try to predict what will happen.
Also I have quite strong interests in the matters of space, time, far future and theory of everything.

Me 2.

 

[Riva]

Other people (without strong Te) cannot possibly speak as logically or hold up their own in that way against someone with strong Te. Because of this they feel intimidated as their own weakness is underlined. The person with the strong Te becomes powerful in their logical mastery and when one person's power increases it can feel threatening to other people in the vicinity. Those people might respond defensively, misconstruing Te as an attempt to attack or gain power over them. That help?

you got that right.

 

[Galusha]

When I go nuts with my bouts of Te, people tend to see it as argumentative instead of simply realizing that this is a different way of understanding people. My ENFP and INxP roommates tend to ask questions instead, but I find it easier to just follow a subject (my favorites being law and politics) until the other person is forced to reveal their cards, their logic. FJs tend to give me some problems with this, yes, and so sometimes a mediator is necessary.

Unrestrained Te, if an INTJ is to be believed, is like a lightsaber, while Ti is like a flashlight. Even if Ti sees the problem, they don't feel as if they're equipped to confront an NTJ, which is essentially like Darth Maul and his double-saber of awesome power. And if being unprepared and defenseless = innocence, I'd like to keep the Te, thanks