[MBTI General] N v. S

[Domino]

I can't understand how anyone could dislike ENFJs or have issues with them because they are so good at diplomacy and genuine empathy. But maybe it's just that I find them irresistable.

How YOU doin'?

I consider myself lucky to be married to one.

hahaha, you really oughta get Mr. Sarah over here for an ENFJ meet-n-greet sometime

 

[Salomé]

Pinkie-poo,
Bit off-topic but you seem to have Ne in spades, are you sure you're ENFJ?
You seem like an ENFP to me...

 

[sarah]

There's a person I've talked to lately about something that's somewhat abstract, and I'm not sure if Sensors would struggle with it or not. This person tested as S, and figuring this out might tell me whether they really are, or are just a rather depressed N of some kind.

What I talked about is how people's potential is limited mostly by the values they accept, and that most of those choices are motivated by either fear or desire. We even talked about how guilt is just another form of fear of being disliked. I told them that the major difference between us, since she was an ISFJ and I was an INFJ, should be that she sees things in terms of how they have been, and I see them in terms of how they will be. She agreed, but said that it might have something to do with the fact that she had no future to look forward to, being at the point of life she's at (39 years old).

She actually asked, "If you don't use your past and what you've been as a frame of reference, what do you use?" I responded "I use where I'm going as my frame of reference. The future." She seemed to understand that response, and agreed that it was a difference.

No, we don't struggle with stuff like this. This is the sort of conversation I have with people I live with, work with, and are friends with, regardless of their type preferences. Why should everyone I know be deemed incapable of having conversations like this just because many of them prefer sensing? That makes no sense.

Your friend seems to be using Si -- framing the future based on what has happened in the past. The fact that she thinks she has no future to look forward to suggests she might be a bit depressed, because it seems to me that most SJs do like to make positive plans for the future, even as they reference the past (or other people's pasts) in doing so.

 

[Not_Me]

Whenever I interact with an outspoken S person, I can clearly see that we differ fundamentally in some way. Yet, I still struggle to pinpoint exactly what that difference is.

 

[Domino]

Pinkie-poo,
Bit off-topic but you seem to have Ne in spades, are you sure you're ENFJ?
You seem like an ENFP to me...

I'm almost textbook ENFJ (low E), but I do use my Ne quite a lot. I'm under heavy Ne influence on a daily basis. If you saw how scattershot and oblivious I was, you'd know how pitifully Ni I am. *sad head shake* Poor poor pitiful Ni.

I think my functions (don't say it, Jack!) are:

Fe> Ni (both close together)>Ne>Fi>Ti>Si>Se>Te

There's quite a bit of my twin's personality rubbing off on me. But as to my type, just ask Jaye. She'd tell you in exasperated detail about living with an NFJ. She said just last night that me and Dad give her grey hairs.

 

[Athenian200]

No, we don't struggle with stuff like this. This is the sort of conversation I have with people I live with, work with, and are friends with, regardless of their type preferences.

Okay, great. That's nice to hear.

Why should everyone I know be deemed incapable of having conversations like this just because many of them prefer sensing? That makes no sense.

I don't know. It doesn't make any sense to me either. The only reason I think that at all is because I've heard so many people on here say that Sensors can't have conversations like this, and provide endless examples and rationalizations of that perspective. Notice that I just questioned it, of course, but it's hard not to be influenced by what others say, especially if they seem intelligent and worthy of respect in many ways.

Your friend seems to be using Si -- framing the future based on what has happened in the past. The fact that she thinks she has no future to look forward to suggests she might be a bit depressed, because it seems to me that most SJs do like to make positive plans for the future, even as they reference the past (or other people's pasts) in doing so.

She probably is a little depressed. She comments that she's never known what she wanted out of life, and thought she'd be happy if she just did what she was supposed to do, but she wasn't... and it's just kept getting worse as she got older. Not to mention that her boss constantly changes things when he sees fit without doing anything to ease the transition once he feels he's done his part, and that she has chronic pain in her legs.

 

[kelric]

..who prefers Intuition
...
they'd be like blind bats blundering around, bashing into everything.

Aside from the fact that I've been known to blunder around and bash into things blush - you make a good point.

If that sounds stupid to you, then know that this is how utterly stupid it sounds to my mind to hear that I'm supposedly incapable of having abstract conversations.

Which is why I think it's far more reasonable to acknowledge that people enjoy both, and that very few people are extreme N or S

I think this is the crux of the matter... all in all, I don't think there are all that many people who really are truly extreme fits for the parody of either S or N stereotypes, either. I'd even go so far as to say that most people (maybe or maybe not most people here, but most people) are pretty close to the center and actively pursue both paths at various times - just maybe one more than the other. Everyone, at the extremes or not, is certainly capable of appreciating either.

Do you have any idea what it's like to be permanently pissed off at what's written about your type?

I'm sort of on the opposite end... I wind up fighting against agreeing with celebration of my inadequacies. Probably not as annoying, I'll admit - but I certainly see your point. I mean, the whole idea of type itself is about understanding differences and enhancing communication... not painting each other as worthless.

Stereotyping is only "efficient" if you don't mind being wrong most of the time, and it's stupid and illogical to hold on to bigoted beliefs that only serve to temporarily make you feel good about yourself and that that have nothing to do with the real world.

I - but loves people, and being around them
N - but some of the most memorable moments in my life have come when I just experienced things and didn't ponder at all.
t (okay, debatable) - but I'm not a robot.
P - but you know what? Sometimes it's nice to keep track of stuff.

 

[Domino]

Kel's a sweetie too. He lets strange cats live in his house while he's away.

 

[Jeffster]

Actually, I DO think people have psyched themselves into believing that. Sometimes I feel like distancing myself from not only this board but from psychological type itself, given the stupidity of the comments about Sensing. Do you have any idea what it's like to be permanently pissed off at what's written about your type? Or do you just pretend all of this doesn't exist?

No, I don't know what it's like, because I don't stay permanently pissed off about anything. What a waste of time. And come on, I know you don't either. I've read plenty of non-pissed-off posts from you. If there really are people that believe that, then I think it's a pretty small number. And even if there is a larger number that is ignorant about the subject, maybe the approach should be to look for ways to improve the communication rather than just rant about how sick and tired you are of people. I'm just saying I don't think that approach actually helps the problem any, I'm not saying that your overall point is invalid. And know that I wouldn't even bother trying to respond to you about this if I didn't love ya and value your input here.

Let me guess -- you just pretend it doesn't exist, or you pretend you're dumb (when you're clearly not) in order to amuse people.

And see, this is an example of something that's kind of unnecessary. Am I really supposed to see this an example of you effectively using intuition or just as an insult? But I don't have to pretend to be dumb. In some contexts, I am dumb. In others, I'm less so. I think that's true for most people. That's kind of what all this personality stuff is about, at least in my observation.

I agree. The original post was EXTREMELY insulting to people who prefer Sensing, SFPs in particular. I will never understand this need some people have for criticizing a type code based on the prevailing negative steretypes of that type code, rather than criticizing individuals. Like I've said before, I don't think anybody here would be able to correctly guess my type if I didn't mention in my profile and my posts that I'm an ISFP. So all the stupidity that's written about SFPs doesn't make sense when it comes to actual SFPs who aren't total idiots.

I don't understand what's so difficult about type that makes it so impossible for people to "get" such simple concepts? I'm sick of seeing posts written by people who are still mentally in preschool when it comes to understanding what type PREFERENCES really mean.

Here's my problem with that. You write in exaggerations (to the point of feeling the need to ALL CAPS SOME STUFF) and vague objects like "all the stupidity that's written..." but you don't give any specific concrete examples of what you consider to be that. You create the tone, intentional or not, of a lecture. And a lecture in this context doesn't further anything, least of all anyone understanding you or Sensing better. Maybe you should back away a bit, if you're so easily pissed off that you can't resist the general attack on a vague notion of insulting ignorance. Because if your intent is to actually try to educate people, and have them come to a better understanding, then I don't think that's the right approach.

I tried a few things in this topic to try to get to the crux of the issue. I'm not holding myself up as some grand example for straightening out people's misconceptions, but at least I made an effort without going into it under the role of the Sensing Martyr. I understand your dislike for people talking as if all people of one type are the same in all instances, but I think most people really are here because they want to learn stuff or at least enjoy interacting with people of different types. I really don't think most people are here just to try to insult people they don't like by way of stereotyping.

I don't have any problem saying that I'm better at observation than intuition. It doesn't mean I have no intuitive ability, but it's certainly a lot less, and there's nothing wrong with that. We all have our roles to play, and saying that is not me insulting anyone's ability to develop the things that don't come as naturally to them. More power to you or anyone else who wants to do that, really. Just maybe try and not assume people have sinister agendas when it's very likely that they don't. I re-read the original post in this thread, and I really don't see the "EXTREMELY insulting" part. It's somebody throwing something out there to try to share and maybe get some help. I think your intuition is failing you here. And that's not an insult, it's just an observation.

 

[Athenian200]

Here's my problem with that. You write in exaggerations (to the point of feeling the need to ALL CAPS SOME STUFF) and vague objects like "all the stupidity that's written..." but you don't give any specific concrete examples of what you consider to be that. You create the tone, intentional or not, of a lecture. And a lecture in this context doesn't further anything, least of all anyone understanding you or Sensing better. Maybe you should back away a bit, if you're so easily pissed off that you can't resist the general attack on a vague notion of insulting ignorance. Because if your intent is to actually try to educate people, and have them come to a better understanding, then I don't think that's the right approach.

I tried a few things in this topic to try to get to the crux of the issue. I'm not holding myself up as some grand example for straightening out people's misconceptions, but at least I made an effort without going into it under the role of the Sensing Martyr. I understand your dislike for people talking as if all people of one type are the same in all instances, but I think most people really are here because they want to learn stuff or at least enjoy interacting with people of different types. I really don't think most people are here just to try to insult people they don't like by way of stereotyping.

Jeffster, I can understand why you think Sarah's approach wouldn't be helpful to educating people who don't know any better, but I think that it did serve a purpose. There really are misunderstood (and sometimes maladjusted) people here who use MBTI mostly to comfort themselves with generalizations that make them feel justified in feeling victimized by a world full of ignorant, unintelligent sensors. Some of them are actually very intelligent, but misuse that intelligence to spread their venom.

This actually happened a lot on INTPc, this place drew quite a few members from there, and despite our best efforts, some of that negative culture found its way into the culture of this forum, albeit in diluted (and sometimes unconscious) form.

The interesting part, is that not everyone is so much a venom spreader, as that they've become entranced by venom spreaders. This is what happened to me. A few intelligent INTPs rationalized their views on sensors, and they earned my respect, and I began to respect and help rationalize their views more because I cared what they thought of me (and maybe to indulge a little with them in a comforting victimization for a moment) than because I thought it was true (often I just wouldn't let myself think about it). Later on, things like what Sarah said here actually guilted me into confronting and trying to adjust my own behavior... probably because part of me already knew it wasn't right.

I really don't envy Sarah's position here, though. She's an ISFP with developed Ni. That means she sees things like this, and the other SPs tell her it's not there or that she's taking an impractical, high-handed approach, while most of the Ns have good reasons to want to deny she had a point (whether consciously or unconsciously), and just casually outmaneuver her in their avoidance. Although you have to appreciate the irony in that part of the reason she finds more fault with us Ns, is because she has started to become more like us.

This is all just an idea, though... can't say that it's definitely true or anything. Take from it what you will.

 

[Jack Flak]

You had me until "Ni."

 

[Darjur]

Well, then I'm finished with talking about type with you, the OP, and everyone else like you both. Stereotyping is only "efficient" if you don't mind being wrong most of the time, and it's stupid and illogical to hold on to bigoted beliefs that only serve to temporarily make you feel good about yourself and that that have nothing to do with the real world.

How do you think stereotypes come to exist? If they were just blatantly false, no one would look at them seriously. I'm not counting joke stereotypes here.

Fact remains, when viewing a larger population than 10 people, you can forsake individuality for generalization. Because taking into account everyones individual needs takes both too much time and too much effort for it to be either useful or worth it.

Lone individuals are nothing in the big picture and they can be freely ignored.

 

[Jack Flak]

Lone individuals are nothing in the big picture and they can be freely ignored.

 

[Darjur]

Mind telling what you mean by that? I have no knowledge of American culture.

 

[Jack Flak]

Mind telling what you mean by that? I have no knowledge of American culture.

He assassinated a president.

 

[Darjur]

He assassinated a president.

And how exactly is this related to my post?

 

[Jack Flak]

And how exactly is this related to my post?

It's not anymore, you've completely ruined the joke.

 

[BlueScreen]

Don't worry Jack, I liked it.

Fact remains, when viewing a larger population than 10 people, you can forsake individuality for generalization. Because taking into account everyones individual needs takes both too much time and too much effort for it to be either useful or worth it.

Lone individuals are nothing in the big picture and they can be freely ignored.

I thought the world had learnt what happens when you remove individuality and liberty from the system. Interestingly Marx was also an INTP.

 

[bronte]

And how exactly is this related to my post?

Scary!

 

[Darjur]

Don't worry Jack, I liked it.



I thought the world had learnt what happens when you remove individuality and liberty from the system. Interestingly Marx was also an INTP.

Tell me something.

Would the congress of the United States change a bill if it didn't coincide with a single persons will? Would a war be started or stopped because of an individuals veto? Would it give unlimited funding for a project just because a single individual wanted it?

Would you change the whole schooling system because a single student might be offended?

Or would they just reply "Shit happens."