Man Wakes From Nightmare Relieved It Only Expression Of His Real-Life Problems

[anticlimatic]

I agree with you about dreams, though I'd also say that there is a lot of wish fufilment in dreams too, its one of the only places were you are totally free, unlike in your waking life, but that freedom can include a lot of unconscious or repressed memories, drives and desires, I think so anyway.

Whether we remember them or not I think dreams are a vital form of mental and emotional maintenance. It's one of the few pieces of solid scientific data we have on them- that they're a product of REM sleep, and that REM sleep is paramount for maintaining sanity. The first job I took after moving across country when I was 18 (out of necessity) was a third shift baker job, and it really opened my eyes to one very interesting facet of human nature: there is a trend in the way people change throughout the day, and that change is reset to default after REM sleep. I didn't notice it until I lived in a state of being freshly awake in the evenings, and worn-down tired in the mornings, but people's minds slowly begin to 'loosen' and 'unravel' as the day goes on. Thoughts and feelings once decidedly separate begin melting and 'connecting' with one another (which is why things get funnier and funnier the longer you're awake). REM sleep defrags the mental hard drive, and dreams are (I think) just a window into that process. I think they only seem random and fanciful because 1) we don't see the entire process, or even remember most of it, and 2) the parts we do see are well out of context. If you imagine the unconscious mind as a maintenance worker organizing the garage of your thoughts and feelings; with its left hand it grabs a thought that's in the wrong place and moves it across the table, while with it's right hand it grabs an emotion from the other side of the table, and as the two pass by one another in transit we notice them, and if we're lucky later remember them, and that's what we call dreams.

 

[ThaumaturgicTheorist]

Have you seen the movie "A Dangerous Method"? I recently did and am still thinking on it often.


In it, Sigmund Freud's approach is to 'help people realize who/what they are'.

Carl Jung wants to expand that by 'helping people see who they are and also what they might become'.

Freud says this is folly because it would only be replacing one delusion with another. That only by accepting that all is delusion will health be possible...

Wait wait wait...so if all selfhood is "delusion", then what's the correct way to be?

 

[Mole]

Are you even aware that the oedipus complex is a cultural construct made explicable by reference to story and fable, itself another cultural construct?

Oedipus and Electra are an Ancient Greek myths. They speak to our emotional life, particularly our deep and abiding emotional life with our parents. And it is normal to deny our emotional life with our parents, and being unconscious, it colours the rest of our relationships.

And yes, Oedipus and Electra are social constructs made 3,000 years ago to address our first and deepest relationships, naturally with our parents.

Why, just last night I saw an excellent Korean movie called Vanishing Time: a Boy Who Returned that was based on and informed by the Ancient Greek myths, described by Freud as The Oedipus Complex for men, and The Electra Complex for women.

To see how the Koreans have adapted these Ancient Greek myths to modern Korea click on Vanishing Time: A Boy Who Returned (2016) Trailer [w/ Eng Subs] - Kang Dong Won - YouTube

 

[Mechnick]

The love is the answer.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

[MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION],


I am not a devotee of Jung, but so far my reading on the topic doesn’t support the sole reason you give for the ‘break’ in his personal/professional relationship with Freud.


Documents and anecdotal accounts, reveal their vastly different approaches to religion, para-psychology, the unconscious mind, dreams and sex. Not to mention the interpersonal and class conflicts between them. There were MANY factors in the chasm that widened between them.


If you read their preserved correspondence, this becomes clear. The link below alludes to it, but the actual letters are well worth a read.

The Famous Letter Where Freud Breaks His Relationship with Jung (1913) | Open Culture

And Jung fled from psychoanalysis into astrology.

Astrology and other forms of mysticism indeed formed part of his practice. He did not stop analysis or training other’s. There are countless letters, documents and patient accounts that bear that out.

Jung certainly did considerably less practical analysis in later years - and concentrated on mentoring and theory - as is common in many medical fields.

And rather than analysis, he started his own cult.

Are you using the world cult like: “California subscribes to the cult of yoga”? (smile)

Because in that sort of ‘social sense’, the word cult is accurate.

In the ‘religious’ or ‘prey’-based definitions, MBTI does not meet the field-standards for what a cult consists of.

The leader and group are always correct and anything the leader does can be justified.
Questions, suggestions, or critical inquiry are forbidden.
Members incessantly scramble with cramped schedules and activities full of largely meaningless work based on the leader’s agenda
Followers are meant to believe that they are never good enough.
Required dependency upon the leader and group for even the most basic problem-solving.
Reporting on members for disobedient actions or thoughts is mandated and rewarded.
Monetary, sexual, or servile labor is expected to gain promotion.
The ‘outside’ world — often including family and friends — is presented as rife with impending catastrophe, evil, and temptations.
Recruitment of new members is designed to be purposefully upbeat and vague about the actual operations of the leader and group.
Former members are shunned and perceived as hostile.

1. Opposing critical thinking
2. Isolating members and penalizing them for leaving
3. Emphasizing special doctrines outside scripture
4. Seeking inappropriate loyalty to their leaders
5. Dishonoring the family unit
6. Crossing Biblical boundaries of behavior (versus sexual purity and personal ownership)
7. Separation from the Church

And like many cult leaders

Are you referring to MBTI as a cult? Aside from not meeting the established criteria ^ it was created by Myers-Briggs not Jung. Jung actually didn’t believe in typing per se. A quote from Malcolm Gladwell, regarding Jung:

“Every individual is an exception to the rule,” he wrote; to “stick labels on people at first sight,” in his view, was “nothing but a childish parlor game.”

he subsequently went insane, as documented in his diary, called the Red Book.

I don’t think that experiencing mental difficulties consigns a person to being termed “insane” for the rest of their life

You ARE correct that he had a well documented nervous breakdown or psychotic break.

He recovered from that and went on to produce further work that reflected the influence of his earlier studies.


There are actually many more accurate and serious charges you could level against Jung. A study of his life reveals a VERY imperfect man.

I suppose, whether one’s personal life nullifies the influence they have in a career - is up to personal interpretation. ie. I don’t choose music to listen to; based on the personal lives of the musicians. I judge the merits of the music itself.



I agree with you btw on the value of examining:

unresolved Oedipus and Electra Complexes

Wait wait wait...so if all selfhood is "delusion", then what's the correct way to be?

Well, things have moved forward since then but it IS interesting to study the building blocks of modern understanding.

The first question would be: do you even agree with what Freud posits to begin with? If you look up Freud's beliefs re: illusion and delusion it will give you a 'jumping off point'.

 

[Mole]

[MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION],


I am not a devotee of Jung, but so far my reading on the topic doesn’t support the sole reason you give for the ‘break’ in his personal/professional relationship with Freud.


Documents and anecdotal accounts, reveal their vastly different approaches to religion, para-psychology, the unconscious mind, dreams and sex. Not to mention the interpersonal and class conflicts between them. There were MANY factors in the chasm that widened between them.


If you read their preserved correspondence, this becomes clear. The link below alludes to it, but the actual letters are well worth a read.

The Famous Letter Where Freud Breaks His Relationship with Jung (1913) | Open Culture

Astrology and other forms of mysticism indeed formed part of his practice. He did not stop analysis or training other’s. There are countless letters, documents and patient accounts that bear that out.

Jung certainly did considerably less practical analysis in later years - and concentrated on mentoring and theory - as is common in many medical fields.




Are you using the world cult like: “California subscribes to the cult of yoga”? (smile)

Because in that sort of ‘social sense’, the word cult is accurate.

In the ‘religious’ or ‘prey’-based definitions, MBTI does not meet the field-standards for what a cult consists of.

The leader and group are always correct and anything the leader does can be justified.
Questions, suggestions, or critical inquiry are forbidden.
Members incessantly scramble with cramped schedules and activities full of largely meaningless work based on the leader’s agenda
Followers are meant to believe that they are never good enough.
Required dependency upon the leader and group for even the most basic problem-solving.
Reporting on members for disobedient actions or thoughts is mandated and rewarded.
Monetary, sexual, or servile labor is expected to gain promotion.
The ‘outside’ world — often including family and friends — is presented as rife with impending catastrophe, evil, and temptations.
Recruitment of new members is designed to be purposefully upbeat and vague about the actual operations of the leader and group.
Former members are shunned and perceived as hostile.

1. Opposing critical thinking
2. Isolating members and penalizing them for leaving
3. Emphasizing special doctrines outside scripture
4. Seeking inappropriate loyalty to their leaders
5. Dishonoring the family unit
6. Crossing Biblical boundaries of behavior (versus sexual purity and personal ownership)
7. Separation from the Church

Are you referring to MBTI as a cult? Aside from not meeting the established criteria ^ it was created by Myers-Briggs not Jung. Jung actually didn’t believe in typing per se. A quote from Malcolm Gladwell, regarding Jung:

“Every individual is an exception to the rule,” he wrote; to “stick labels on people at first sight,” in his view, was “nothing but a childish parlor game.”






I don’t think that experiencing mental difficulties consigns a person to being termed “insane” for the rest of their life

You ARE correct that he had a well documented nervous breakdown or psychotic break.

He recovered from that and went on to produce further work that reflected the influence of his earlier studies.


There are actually many more accurate and serious charges you could level against Jung. A study of his life reveals a VERY imperfect man.

I suppose, whether one’s personal life nullifies the influence they have in a career - is up to personal interpretation. ie. I don’t choose music to listen to; based on the personal lives of the musicians. I judge the merits of the music itself.



I agree with you btw on the value of examining:






Well, things have moved forward since then but it IS interesting to study the building blocks of modern understanding.

The first question would be: do you even agree with what Freud posits to begin with? If you look up Freud's beliefs re: illusion and delusion it will give you a 'jumping off point'.

I confess I am bowled over by your intelligence, and I stand in awe of your empathy.

And yet I stand off from you. I kind of know why, but I keep it hidden from myself and from you.

It is like a hidden volcano in me, which I believe mirrors the volcano in you.

Volcanos are dangerous and can explode, but they also build new land in the watery ocean.

Shall we build new land of shall we explode? I have planted sensors around the volcano and measure the slightest seismic shifts, so far there is no sign of any movement, so I will keep a watching brief.

 

[Kanra Jest]

Dreams are interesting... I actually write them down because I believe they could have importance in them. Even if it is generally symbolic of whatever we are dealing with in our psych.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

I confess I am bowled over by your intelligence, and I stand in awe of your empathy.

And yet I stand off from you. I kind of know why, but I keep it hidden from myself and from you.

It is like a hidden volcano in me, which I believe mirrors the volcano in you.

Volcanos are dangerous and can explode, but they also build new land in the watery ocean.

Shall we build new land of shall we explode? I have planted sensors around the volcano and measure the slightest seismic shifts, so far there is no sign of any movement, so I will keep a watching brief.

Thank you for your kind words. Truly.

I am not sure if I am understanding you accurately but I am trying.

If I am: I do not think you will ever see volcanic or tsunami activity. I reserve such for behind closed doors. It isn't that I am not capable of such. It's that such fault adjusting takes place solo and in a private environment. Is this wise? I can't say. Only that it is learned and long practiced. Thus, in this public environment you will be safe to engage and I thus reach out a friendly bridge, of which you are welcome to add on to, if you wish.