[MBTI General] ISTP IN TROUBLE WITH AN ENFJ FEMALE.

[A window to the soul]

I think I would be so outraged by being jerked around that it would take 20 grown men to hold me back from saying curtly "You tell me what game you're playing so I can return it to the Toys R Us."

I understand the frustrations here, but what if there are misperceptions that's lead to that conclusion? Saying something like that might cause irreparable damage this early on. Pick your battles. If one must, then it's best to form it as a question, rather than a statement.

 

[Domino]

I understand your angle - I just have difficulty believing that the enfj hasn't had ample opportunity to make her intentions clear.

 

[Orangey]

I don't agree with those in this thread that assume the worst in people and hastily door slam. It's obvious you're crazy about her, so I think it's wise to keep any bad 'possible realities' in the back of your mind. In the forefront, considering the probable reality, she may genuinely like you.

What makes something the more probable reality, according to your calculations?

I believe most people have good intentions.

It's not so much their intentions that matter as their actions. Two people can have the same exact intentions (e.g., "I want this relationship to work out") but execute them in wildly different ways, and to better or worse effect.

If you go into relationships with a paranoid-bad attitude, then you're not really open to 'reality'. (Reality is what 'is', regardless of what one perceives.) You're also liable to subconsciously treat people unfairly; consequently, pushing them away.

Yeah, you shouldn't enter into relationships with a "paranoid-bad attitude," but you should be wary before entering into them. It's the latter that facilitates the former. That's just common sense. Openness ought end where naiveté begins.

If she's lashing out at you because you're not reciprocating fast enough, then that's your queue to respect yourself enough to walk away (no matter how crazy about her you are). If she genuinely likes you, she won't let you walk too far. She'll figure out a mature respectful approach.

But that she didn't figure out a mature, respectful approach in the first place speaks volumes about her.

 

[A window to the soul]

What makes something the more probable reality, according to your calculations?

^In the context of this thread: past experiences, limited facts of these two acquaintances in a newly forming relationship, and my positive view of the world. My calculations have served me well.

It's not their intentions that matter so much as their actions. Two people can have the same exact intentions (e.g., "I want this relationship to work out") but execute them in wildly different ways, and to better or worse effect.

Understood. We're on the same page. Again, when two people first meet, there's little to go on, and one of the key players is terrified of confronting the other key player; obviously, more actions are required before passing a firm character judgement. However, more actions will not happen, if the OP makes false assumptions and reacts accordingly. I'm suggesting she make the positive assumption that her friend has good intentions, until proven otherwise. That's the healthy approach. My reasoning is within the context of the details provided in this thread.

I'm not sure they're at that point yet of executing, "I want this relationship to work out"; meaning, I think they're still acquaintences.

Yeah, you shouldn't enter into relationships with a "paranoid-bad attitude," but you should be wary before entering into them. It's the latter that facilitates the former. That's just common sense. Openness ought end where naiveté begins.

Do you want to fight??



...cuz I'm not disagreeing with ya.

But that she didn't figure out a mature, respectful approach in the first place speaks volumes about her.

Yeah, you're right.

 

[Orangey]

^In the context of this thread: past experiences, limited facts of these two acquaintances in a newly forming relationship, and my positive view of the world. My calculations have served me well.

So you're not actually saying to take reality as it is, but rather to use your preferred interpretive lens. It's important not to get those things confused.

Understood. We're on the same page. Again, when two people first meet, there's little to go on, and one of the key players is terrified of confronting the other key player; obviously, more actions are required before passing a firm character judgement. However, more actions will not happen, if the OP makes false assumptions and reacts accordingly. I'm suggesting she make the positive assumption that her friend has good intentions, until proven otherwise. That's the healthy approach. My reasoning is within the context of the details provided in this thread.

And I'M saying that deferring character judgment by ignoring or rationalizing worrisome actions, under the mistaken belief that you don't have enough information, or that you're being closed-minded/too negative/paranoid, does nothing but waste your time and energy AND needlessly make you vulnerable to personal injury. And I don't think you're in a position to say what's a "healthy approach" or not.

It seems that we do agree that assuming the worst too soon/on too little evidence AND hanging on blindly in the face of damning evidence are both unhealthy/irrational approaches to relationships. Where we disagree, however, is on the following:

(1) Assuming the best of people. (I think it's best to be neutral or slightly wary.)
(2) The OP does not have enough info to make a judgment. (I think she does.)

I'm not sure they're at that point yet of executing, "I want this relationship to work out"; meaning, I think they're still acquaintences.

Yeah, it was an example. That's what "e.g.," means. You didn't think that I literally meant to suggest that "I want this relationship to work out" was either party's actual intention, did you?

Do you want to fight??



...cuz I'm not disagreeing with ya.

Yes I do, and yes you are. You even disagree with me that we're disagreeing. Haha.

Yeah, you're right.

But if you agree with this, then why wouldn't you agree that the OP has enough information to go on to make a judgment?

 

[A window to the soul]

So you're not actually saying to take reality as it is, but rather to use your preferred interpretive lens.

Hmmm... no, that's not what I said.

It's important not to get those things confused.

Okay, thx for the clarification. I actually defined reality a couple of posts ago (scroll up).

And I'M saying that deferring character judgment by ignoring or rationalizing worrisome actions, under the mistaken belief that you don't have enough information, or that you're being closed-minded/too negative/paranoid, does nothing but waste your time and energy AND needlessly make you vulnerable to personal injury.

Yep, that goes without saying. And I think timing is everything too.

And I don't think you're in a position to say what's a "healthy approach" or not.

I feel happy and healthy.

Orangey, You have a right to your opinion as do I. It's all good. Breathe, relax, release.

Yeah, it was an example. That's what "e.g.," means. You didn't think that I literally meant to suggest that "I want this relationship to work out" was either party's actual intention, did you?

Welcome to the game.

Yes I do, and yes you are. You even disagree with me that we're disagreeing. Haha.

It's light-hearted kiddie stuff. Non-issue.

But if you agree with this, then why wouldn't you agree that the OP has enough information to go on to make a judgment?

Who am I to place judgment on the poor soul I've never met in real life, based soley on hearsay off the Internet. I feel more comfortable providing the OP with some ideas, leaving the options open and allowing the OP to decide for herself.

 

[Orangey]

Hmmm... no.

Yes.

Here you recommend that one try their best not to colour their perceptions of reality with a bad attitude.

If you go into relationships with a paranoid-bad attitude, then you're not really open to 'reality'. (Reality is what 'is', regardless of what one perceives.).

Then here you said that the way to determine the "most probable" reality is by deliberately colouring your perceptions with a positive attitude.

What makes something the more probable reality, according to your calculations?

^In the context of this thread: past experiences, limited facts of these two acquaintances in a newly forming relationship, and my positive view of the world. My calculations have served me well.

Okay, thx for the clarification.

You're welcome.

Yep, that goes without saying. And I think timing is everything.

Good.

I feel happy and healthy.

I don't think anyone is in a position to declare whether one's approach to other people (suspicious, trusting, neutral, etc.,) is healthy or not.

Orangey, You have a right to your opinion. It's all good. Breathe, relax, release.

I was never under the impression that I didn't have the right to my opinion.

Welcome to the game.

Who am I to place judgment on the poor soul I've never met in real life, based soley on hearsay off the Internet. I feel more comfortable providing the OP with some ideas, leaving the options open and allowing the OP to decide for herself.

What? Of course the OP has to decide for herself. That's the whole point, right? She presented the scenario, gave us some details, and asked what we think based on the information we've been provided. She asked us for our judgment on the situation given those parameters, not to make a decision FOR her. We're none of us in a position to decide whether to allow the OP to make her own decision or not, so your saying that is meaningless.

 

[Orangey]

I'm not fighting with you. You're right. Now let it go.

But there's nothing to let go.

 

[Poki]

It's not so much their intentions that matter as their actions. Two people can have the same exact intentions (e.g., "I want this relationship to work out") but execute them in wildly different ways, and to better or worse effect.

And you can have the same action with different intentions so

People can read into things all the want, but in the end all there doing is playing a game when they do this. Them against the other person, who is gonna win? Relationships arent about winning, its about 2 people getting along and working together.

If the other person wants to play a game, let them and enjoy it or walk away.

 

[A window to the soul]

Good attitude, good intentions, good karma.

 

[babbygirlk]

Sorry for not posting or responding lately. I have been trying to work out some of the kinks but I think I got it. I've tried to go through the advice and posts. I know right now shes not into me like that because she has a boyfriend but she does truly and honestly care for me a great deal. Yesterday (2/12) she posted something on Facebook early in the am (not like her she works nights, sleeps days) that said she felt unappreciated so I responded back and she stated something to the effect that I always know what to say to make her feel better. Then I was thinking of getting BK breakfast so I texted her to see if she wanted any and she actually said hell yes!! So then I brought her breakfast (she lives right up the block from the BK). I just thought we were going to have breakfast that's it. Then she said your not doing anything so lets go run some errands before I have to go to work. So we did and after that we went back to my house to let the dog out and went back to her place. On the mad dash of misc errands we started talking about deep convo stuff and she told me she was bi and she looks over at me and was looking for my approval or disapproval. I responded and said it does not matter gay straight bi for me I don't see it that way. So she smiled and then we really didn't talk abut it any more. We got back to her place then she says I need a nap before work so she puts a movie on for me and then I thought she was going to go into the bedroom and sleep. She said she likes to cuddle. So she told me to sit in the corner of the couch then she laid her head on my leg and told me to rub her back. So I finished the movie and she fell asleep and I woke her up when said too. Then she kept thanking me for spending the day with her and letting her nap. While shes getting ready for work she also tells me that she thinks her boyfriend is seriously jealous of me. Her boyfriend comes home first time I meeting him and brings this big teddy bear in early he said he was going to wait till Monday (2/14) but ya know. I know shes bi so she does show me more affection then normal for a women so I just take it one day at a time and see where this goes. Maybe? Maybe Not? I can't complain right now. I did have fun and I like being around her so I'll just sit back and take what I can get if its just on Saturdays while the BF is working and we cuddle on the couch before she has work thats fine with me. Thank you for everyone that has helped me try to figure "me" out and her "type" out. THANKS!!

 

[Ulaes]

you're okay with being the other woman?

 

[babbygirlk]

Well this is the closet I have gotten with her outside of work. So yeah I'm ok with it for now.