Is the truth really so bad?

[Risen]

The truth wont always set you free. That is the ultimate truth, the truth beyond truths. Mankind lives in a world of illusions, and some of them are very much necessary for order.

 

[Blackmail!]

Mankind lives in a world of illusions, and some of them are very much necessary for order.

Risen,

That may be the wisest and most truthful words you have written since I began to read you on TypeC.

At last, you do seem aware of some of your own necessary illusions.

 

[Ginkgo]

The truth isn't bad. As humans, we just don't have the capacity to embrace it.

 

[INTP]

religion is a flaw in evolution process. simply because people with this kind of mental disorder(yes i coinsider it a mental disorder) did not die because of it(like people died because of other kinds of disorders) and most likely it has helped people to survive and when people with this disorder survived it got stuck into our genes pretty hard.

when people cant understand something or cant handle something they think it must be because there is something supernatural in it, heres some examples:

australian aboriginals dreamtime: they dont understand what dreaming is so they think its a different world as real as the world they are living in and explain it with different kinds of supernatural things like that its the world where gods live(they can see gods in dreams), the dreamtime is timeless(they see dead and unborn people in dreams) etc.

witches in the dark ages: something bad happened that people couldnt understand -> must be the devils minions doing this. or someone had schizophrenia -> he must be posessed by satan because hes out of control

afterlife: people cant handle the death of a loved one or dont understand the consept of not living because they themselfs have lived for all theyr lives

world: people cant understand how the planets/universum or life on them is born -> there must be some higher force to make all this happen

some people even worshipped shadow of a big rock because the shadow looked like head simply because they couldnt understand how it was born. naturally meny people worshipped sun because they couldnt understand what it was and it gave them heat(that they couldnt understand either) and supported life in meny ways. i could list meny more examples, but i cba now

i think people should invent new religions that would make bit more sense because science has proven so meny things in about all religions wrong allready that its stupid to belive in them enymore. but the fact that people still belive in so stupid things only proves that its because of some kind of mental disorder, naturally people with this mental disorder cant/wont understand it because they cant think straight.

i belive that you can make people go crazy by using brain washing like what religions do all the time, luckily not everyoe has this gene gone wrong so strong that they couldnt understand the truth when they think it for a while and luckily not everyone are so badly brain washed

 

[nolla]

Many people, even if they knew that there was no afterlife, would STILL teach their kids that there was one. We REALLY want to lie to them about this. I do not think it is reasonable. Where do you stand on this?

Well, my extended family is not religious at all, though they are members of the church. So I am also Lutheran because of this. My mom is somewhat religious but not in the usual way. She believes in "energy" and ufos and some other new age stuff. When I was a kid I am sure she told me about that stuff, but I was a science geek so I didn't take any of it for granted, and she didn't push it too far.

Now I see it like there is a psychological need for spirituality, and I have some sort of spiritual outlook on life. I "believe" that following certain morals is good for me and the people around me, even though I can't prove it is so. I "believe" there is a reason for me to be here, but it is a reason I have decided for myself. I "believe" in some alternative medicine, energy stuff, but I think they work through relieving stress. For example shiatsu massage, the effect comes from relieving stress on the tense areas and as your body doesn't need to focus on it, your mind works better too. I don't see religion contradictory to science. Science is maybe higher in importance for me, but I could not get rid of my beliefs that are based on hunch or whatever.

Religion might be a problem when you start denying reason. I mean, if you can logically see that this is not how things work and still you decide to go against your knowledge, this is when it becomes a problem. If, on the other hand, you can't see the logic in some scientific argument and you deny it, this is only common sense. Same goes for spirituality. There is a logic in everything I believe in.

I'm reading Huxley's Perennial Philosophy at the moment. He basically combines the cores of every major religion. He sees the religious experience to be real in psychological sense, and believes that by taking a certain path in your life will lead you to Nirvana, which is the same thing as the life of a saint in Christianity. Very interesting stuff...

 

[Lark]

religion is a flaw in evolution process. simply because people with this kind of mental disorder(yes i coinsider it a mental disorder) did not die because of it(like people died because of other kinds of disorders) and most likely it has helped people to survive and when people with this disorder survived it got stuck into our genes pretty hard.

when people cant understand something or cant handle something they think it must be because there is something supernatural in it, heres some examples:

australian aboriginals dreamtime: they dont understand what dreaming is so they think its a different world as real as the world they are living in and explain it with different kinds of supernatural things like that its the world where gods live(they can see gods in dreams), the dreamtime is timeless(they see dead and unborn people in dreams) etc.

witches in the dark ages: something bad happened that people couldnt understand -> must be the devils minions doing this. or someone had schizophrenia -> he must be posessed by satan because hes out of control

afterlife: people cant handle the death of a loved one or dont understand the consept of not living because they themselfs have lived for all theyr lives

world: people cant understand how the planets/universum or life on them is born -> there must be some higher force to make all this happen

some people even worshipped shadow of a big rock because the shadow looked like head simply because they couldnt understand how it was born. naturally meny people worshipped sun because they couldnt understand what it was and it gave them heat(that they couldnt understand either) and supported life in meny ways. i could list meny more examples, but i cba now

i think people should invent new religions that would make bit more sense because science has proven so meny things in about all religions wrong allready that its stupid to belive in them enymore. but the fact that people still belive in so stupid things only proves that its because of some kind of mental disorder, naturally people with this mental disorder cant/wont understand it because they cant think straight.

i belive that you can make people go crazy by using brain washing like what religions do all the time, luckily not everyoe has this gene gone wrong so strong that they couldnt understand the truth when they think it for a while and luckily not everyone are so badly brain washed

Yeah, your sweeping generalisations and pseudo-science dont make your case any more compelling, from your post all I can tell is that you hate religion and make certain condescending assumptions about religious people, I suspect this is all for some deep seated personal reason.

Physician heal thyself.

 

[Oaky]

I don't expect you to "take such things lightly". Think and debate with all the strength of your will and your mind.

But be humble, and don't expect to be prepared for everything people throw at you. You might have won a debate against some atheists in a particular time, but saying the abovementioned things makes you sadly illogical, short-sighted and stuck-up...

... without having done anything that would give a fair explication for your ego. I'm not getting riled up because of your ideas, I'm getting riled up because of your style. Yet again.

I stated before I am going to post a large post explaining my theory at some point. It's not that I have won athiests in a debate or whatsoever. I'm just stating that I believe in God and that I won't take up the atheist's views on them as I already know them. If I hadn't stated it, arguments would be riling in of people's thoughts on my post. It would have been a bit more of a bother than the bother of the thoughts of my attitude as I wrote the post. I apologise for looking too stuck-up. It was a wrong move on my part. Yes, many times I let my ego come over me. I'm going to have to learn to be aware of it.

 

[Lark]

OK, OK, OK, my two bits.

What is the truth we are talking about?

At the outset the finality of death is supposed as truth, the difficulty in handling this truth is what it is supposed gave rise to religious belief which posited the contrary that there is no finality in death. Religion is a kind of ego defence against reality.

There is contained in this discourse the assumption that it is true that death is final, the question posed is whether this is terrible, so terrible to require denial.

I would suggest that's a personal dilemma or problem, perhaps the posting of the thread is an individual attempt to receive confirmation and reinforcement of existing views, confirmation bias providing the motivation to see accumulated correlations/confirmations. To a certain extent this is so with all threads, especially threads that do not pose a problem but instead set out a stand and then fiercely seek to defend it.

A simple reframing of the original post to reflect the main contrary perspective that I could think of would be that of an evangelist posting is it so difficult to accept the truth that there is a loving God and reward for those that embrace that love in the afterlife. It is essentially the same thread and, I suspect, would play out exactly the same way.

Infact perhaps this thread was a consequence of or triggered by some stimulus similar to the hypothesised evangelist thread, I find that or at least I've done that myself, something triggers a negative affect (emotion connected to an idea) and one way of disfusing that is looking for agreement, assurance, support from others. The mirroring in the external reality of the internal reality.

Cheers guys and gals.

 

[Tiltyred]

I've been thinking a lot along these lines after being upset when someone said in my presence and completely matter-of-factly that Christmas doesn't mean anything.

I propose that the real meaning of these eternal life symbols are possibly not of our own personalities being eternal, but just the fact that life itself loves life and endlessly recreates itself. The sun always comes up in the morning. Anything that can reproduce does. The force of life itself is infinite -- the universe keeps creating itself every day.

In this way, life is eternal, and the life force, if you are inclined to like the experience of awe, is something to worship and be grateful for. We're here and we get to participate.

As to why bring kids up in church, well, it used to be that church was one of the pillars of society. It gives people shared values so they can agree about what is wrong and what is right, and maybe live in greater harmony. It gives people a shared vocabulary. It is a unifying factor. In a neighborhood church, you see your community face to face. When babies are born, they're brought to church so everybody can see and acknowledge the new member of the community. But church extends to more than just the Sunday worship -- churches feed and clothe and educate and give money to causes, are used as meeting places, are houses of discussion, etc.

I don't fear death but it's not because of church. It's because I know I'm a part of everything that lives, and everything that lives dies, so it is natural and appropriate for me to die when my time comes. I don't see any real value to impressing upon children that they will die. They figure that out for themselves eventually.

To echo what Risen said, the conclusion I came to last week is that some people are unable to suspend disbelief long enough to be ennobled by a beautiful fiction. (Although it's not really a fiction -- you have to learn to think of things as symbols/keys. If you stay on the literal with spiritual things, you will never comprehend them.)

 

[Moiety]

As I've stated before on these death and religion threads, if truth=nihilism, then whatever is utilitarian is the only "truth" that matters. Why would it not be "reasonable" to lie to children in this manner if it has utilitarian benefits for the children involved?

I was going to post something along these lines.

 

[Wonkavision]

The truth wont always set you free. That is the ultimate truth, the truth beyond truths. Mankind lives in a world of illusions, and some of them are very much necessary for order.

Yikes!

Like what, for example?

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

I'm a Christian (for the record), and I think parents should teach their children the truth as far as they understand it. For example I'm not going to teach my daughter to believe in Santa Claus.

 

[FemMecha]

In the end reality always wins, so it does have to be addressed. I find it disturbing to deliberately create illusions for children. I have a visually impaired student who is elementary school aged and she has been taught to believe in Santa Claus. She asked me several excellent questions about it, but I didn't want to fracture whatever system of ideas her family presents to her. I mostly just said stuff like, "boy, I'm not sure how that works", or "that is an excellent question, maybe your mom or dad knows the answer". Children are already vulnerable in that it is easy to trick them, but it seems moreso if they don't have the use of one of their senses to verify that reality.

Fantasy can be a way to allow oneself to hurt others by creating a false reality that only symbolizes what we prefer to deal with and value, or by creating enough confusion that another person's view of reality doesn't quite work, or their trust is broken when they discover it is all make-believe presented as truth.

Fantasy and symbols are important, but each individual should have a sense of control over their use. Being tricked into these is not necessarily nicest thing to do, although it is commonly accepted.

 

[Moiety]

In the end reality always wins, so it does have to be addressed. I find it disturbing to deliberately create illusions for children. I have a visually impaired student who is elementary school aged and she has been taught to believe in Santa Claus. She asked me several excellent questions about it, but I didn't want to fracture whatever system of ideas her family presents to her. I mostly just said stuff like, "boy, I'm not sure how that works", or "that is an excellent question, maybe your mom or dad knows the answer". Children are already vulnerable in that it is easy to trick them, but it seems moreso if they don't have the use of one of their senses to verify that reality.

Fantasy can be a way to allow oneself to hurt others by creating a false reality that only symbolizes what we prefer to deal with and value, or by creating enough confusion that another person's view of reality doesn't quite work, or their trust is broken when they discover it is all make-believe presented as truth.

Fantasy and symbols are important, but each individual should have a sense of control over their use. Being tricked into these is not necessarily nicest thing to do, although it is commonly accepted.

It's evil to be sure. Dishonest.

 

[Lark]

When I was younger I used to trouble myself a great deal about what I beleived, what others believed, what was true and should be universally recognised as such.

One of the instances that stood out the most was a reaction I had to someone speaking evangelistically to someone in the care system who was from a different community background to that of the evangeliser. I thought this was very wrong at the time, more about the needs of te evangelical than the child.

I'm not just as worried about it now as I was then, as in it doesnt mean I lose any sleep, on the other hand objectively I do think just whose needs are being met is important and should be factored into the issue.

For instance would it be a good idea to teach young children with little in the way of resilience, cognitive/reasoning capacity and copeing skills about the Rwandan Genocide, deliberate murder, rape and impregnation of non-Serbs during the Bosnian war, atrocities and holocaust of the second world war? It, after all, is truth, its only going to cause fear, night terrors and possibly even vacarious trauma.

 

[highlander]

I'm a Christian (for the record), and I think parents should teach their children the truth as far as they understand it. For example I'm not going to teach my daughter to believe in Santa Claus.

I actually agree with this. But Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy?? It's kind of fun isn't it? I recall my youngest daughter at 4 being told by one of her friends that there was no such thing as Santa Claus. She said, "no, that's not right, because her parents would never lie to her". I still feel a bit guilty about it because we were always honest and truthful with her. In the end though, I think it is pretty harmless.

 

[INTP]

Yeah, your sweeping generalisations and pseudo-science dont make your case any more compelling, from your post all I can tell is that you hate religion and make certain condescending assumptions about religious people, I suspect this is all for some deep seated personal reason.

Physician heal thyself.

i hate what some religions are doing to people, not the religious people. its not the peoples fault if they got some mental problems. i see religious people same as people with schizophrenia, but less unstable and thats why usually less dangerous. i dont have eny personal reasons for this belief, im just sane and a rational person

i dont expect enyone whos religious to understand that religion is caused by mental disorder. the main thing about having mental disorder is that you cant recognice it yourself and when someone tells you are insane and even if its proven to you, you still trust more your own reasoning rather than the other peoples arguments.

edit.

i ment mentally ill, because mental disorder needs to be abnormal for culture. so religion is not actually a mental disorder, even tho its an mental illness

 

[Lark]

i hate what some religions are doing to people, not the religious people. its not the peoples fault if they got some mental problems. i see religious people same as people with schizophrenia, but less unstable and thats why usually less dangerous. i dont have eny personal reasons for this belief, im just sane and a rational person

i dont expect enyone whos religious to understand that religion is caused by mental disorder. the main thing about having mental disorder is that you cant recognice it yourself and when someone tells you are insane and even if its proven to you, you still trust more your own reasoning rather than the other peoples arguments.

edit.

i ment mentally ill, because mental disorder needs to be abnormal for culture. so religion is not actually a mental disorder, even tho its an mental illness

So Schizophrenics are dangerous and one of the main symptoms of mental illness is that you believe your sane?

Yeah, on that basis you're no authority on either religion or mental health.

 

[Jaguar]

i hate what some religions are doing to people, not the religious people. its not the peoples fault if they got some mental problems. i see religious people same as people with schizophrenia, but less unstable and thats why usually less dangerous. i dont have eny personal reasons for this belief, im just sane and a rational person

i dont expect enyone whos religious to understand that religion is caused by mental disorder. the main thing about having mental disorder is that you cant recognice it yourself and when someone tells you are insane and even if its proven to you, you still trust more your own reasoning rather than the other peoples arguments.

edit.

i ment mentally ill, because mental disorder needs to be abnormal for culture. so religion is not actually a mental disorder, even tho its an mental illness

 

[INTP]

So Schizophrenics are dangerous and one of the main symptoms of mental illness is that you believe your sane?

Yeah, on that basis you're no authority on either religion or mental health.

when did i say that schizophrenics are allways dangerous? incase you didnt know that when someone is insane he cant recognise it by himself, you need to do more studuying, i cba to teach everything to you. i never told that this is one of the main symptoms.

A common handbook of medicine lists the following as common symptoms of schizophrenia:
Hallucination: Seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, and feeling things, which are not there.
Delusions: Thoughts that do not make sense.
Improper behavior: Doing things that do not make sense.
Formal thought disorder: Thoughts are confused and mixed up. This can cause a person to say things that do not make sense, and to think in ways that do not make sense.

you feel that there is god, for example taking care of you or looking after you(hallucination)
thought of something like god doesent make sense(Delusions)
praying for example(or sacrifising in extreme cases) does not make sense to healthy person (Improper behavior)
i bet the formal thought disorder i dont need to explain
these are just from point of view of a sane person. for a religious guy praying does make sense, guess why
these are just a few examples, there is alot more examples, but i cba to list more

im not saying that i think that religious people are schizophrenics(even tho it has all of the same symptoms), i just view them both as mentally ill therefore pretty much the same

my best friend has had schizophrenic obsessive–compulsive disorder for about 5 years and i pretty much understand his thinking patterns(or lack of healthy thinking patterns) and its pretty much same as religious peoples thinking pattern(or lack of healthy thinking patterns) when it comes to god or religion.